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Terrified US soldiers are still killing civilians with impunity, while the dead go uncounted

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posted on Apr, 28 2005 @ 06:57 PM
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In my opinion.

The ideal of the insurgence is to kill as many civilians as they can (well zarqawi's and probably osama's idea.)

Its quite simple. The more men, women and children you kill the more hatred or disintreset the public shows. Especially in nations that are filled with anti-americanism.
The main target would probably be the American people. Turn Iraq into another Vietnam; turn the public support away.
Sorta making the US marines out to be Waffen SS. Its a dark but ingenious propaganda tool.




posted on Apr, 28 2005 @ 07:04 PM
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When civilians are killed by the US troops and not counted, invesitgated or even acknlowledged... it pisses alot of people off... who cares say the American Nationalists, and the Neo-Cons... we ousted Sadamn! We're fighting terrorism! We can kill some people on the way, its war...

Yes it war... but it will cause more war... how do you think the families of the victims will react...

Scenario 1 : Oh i love those Americans lets be their friends, sure they killed my Father Habib, and my Brother Abdul... kets welcome them and their ways with open arms...

or

Scenario 2 : Those evil Americans, they come her, they kill our people, they steal our oil... Sure they get rid of Saddam, but they Killed abdul and and Papa Habib... let us take up arms and join jihad!

Now scenario 2 is much more likely... as much as you want to justify the war and say we need to get rid of terrorism... you need to do its with respect and compassion, otherwise your only going to create more terrorists... and in a country like Iraq, where the people you are killing werent 'terrorists' untill their country was invaded (they are resistance in my eyes), you have not only created 'terrorists' from nothing, but by killing these new 'terrorists', you create then more...

Oh well... i dont live in the USA so i guess i dont have to worry how much of a hornets nest you Government stirs up.



posted on Apr, 28 2005 @ 07:28 PM
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Originally posted by Vanguard
Im not ashamed to say that stable oil reserves and more importantly stable oil prices will be a long run benefit of the removal of a dangerous and evil dictator. The US is not stealing the oil - they are paying the Iraqi's well for it - thats why they will defend it themselves.


Accurate, to the point, makes sense, and right on the money.


I am afraid making sense was never the goal of this thread to be sure.



posted on Apr, 28 2005 @ 07:38 PM
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To add to this post, Im in Iraq now working in Intell. The fact is that civilians are being killed. The need to judge the whole problem with one or two words is wrong. I understand many wont see a soldiers ideas his own and are formed by the system but sorry I think for myself. Sure I cant get into the details of some of the killings here but look, soldiers like most of you dont think killing is just an everyday thing. In most cases they have to judge their action on the lives of others around them and not just their own little life. It happens that they make poor choices for sure. This dosent mean we(soldiers) arent learning and changing how thing are done to make thing better but the bottom line is most just want to get home and if it comes down to it if they see a true threat then they act. Many of these killing come out of the loss of control of an event. If both parties understand the goal is to limit threats then we are getting somewhere. Thats very hard to do with ieds and car bombs around any corner. True there are some cases of strait up murder too. Where would that not happen? Please understand most soldiers here are doing things that they were never trained to do in the past. We have become Iraqs police. How would you react to that. Thats a job you should want to do not ordered to do. Thats the rub of being a soldier. I thing someone of this post said we need to get over the threat because we choose this job. What a heart there. We are here because we care. I dont really believe in this so called war but I still care. Its the job of the you and the public to change this war not soldiers. If you dont want Iraq civilians killed then write and speak out against the war. It will go on untill we leave, its the nature of urban conflicts. Not one of those Iraqs lives is any less valued then mine or my follow soldiers for sure. Its not easy to do what where asked knowing that. It up to you to support us and the Iraq people. A side note here. The number of civilians killied with impunity is know, those are called crimes. Its the one that we kill without impunity that will haunt us for the rest of our lives.



posted on Apr, 28 2005 @ 07:39 PM
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I may not be the brightest fellow because I often take a simplistic view of things but even idiots have opinions so here's mine; First, and I think that everyone can agree on this, Saddam was not a very nice man and, except for his cronies, it is a good thing for the Iraqi people that Saddam was deposed, arrested and now awaits trial by an Iraqi court. Secondly, it's sad and most unfortunate that anyone has to die; Iraqi or alliance forces. Too often it is a civilian or a young man or woman from allied forces who die because of the insurgency. It is a loss when ANYONE dies! Next point is that the insurgency should simply stop. Stop the suicide bombings of the iraqi people, of the allied forces, of anyone. Just stop. If a prolonged period of peace is established then the allied forces will go home. When that happens, the idle insurgents can simply put down their guns and suicide bombs and instead they can become active in the political battle to shape Iraq into the country of peace and Islamic values that they want -- that everyone wants. I am certain that the US/allied forces would want nothing better than to just go home. But they can't go home until peace is established on the streets of Iraq. And peace in Iraq won't come until the insurgents stop their violence. Yes, it sounds like a viscious circle but if you follow the thread, it makes sense. At this point, I really believe that the US and allied forces and governments just want out but they can't leave until there is a government in place that can maintain peace, security, and the basic infrastructure necessary for Iraq to rise up from the ashes of the tyrranny of Saddam and the military machine of the allies. From my point of view, insurgents or freedom fighters -- call them what you want-- are responsible for the continuation of the war. If the insurgents would only stop killing their own people and the allied forces then the war would effectively end. Perhaps the insurgents don't want peace and perhaps they don't wish to work through a government of laws, rules and values that are respected by the tenets of Islam and the rest of the world. I don't know. Like I said, I'm no genius but this is the way a simple mind like mine sees things.



posted on Apr, 28 2005 @ 07:41 PM
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hey souljah,
what about all the wonderful muderers car bombing thier own people, police stations, schools, and hospitals ? ? why isn't that outrageous to you



posted on Apr, 29 2005 @ 10:43 AM
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Fight Fire with Fire?

First mistake in Fighting Terrorism - to fight back with same or worse ammount of Fear and Bullets.

OK lets take a look at the situation from the beginning.

What are US soldiers doing in Iraq? Why were they sent to Iraq in the first place?

Are there weapons of mass destruction in Iraq?

Was Saddam linked to Al-Qaeda?

Was Saddem nesting international terrorists in Baghdad?

Is their presence in Iraq decreasing or increasing world wide terrorism?

So lets say, that Bush admninistration is fighting terrorism with attacks on Afganistan and Iraq. Well I guess everybody now forgot all about Afganistan and how US forces bombed one of worlds poorest countries to stone age. Did they eliminate the terrorist threat and the leader of infamous Al-Qaeda network OBL? Did they stop the opression in Afganistan? Did US forces bring peace and stability to this region? Did they feed the hungry and help the sick?

Afganistan was a pure failure of Bush administration, in the way of fighting terrorism. So what Bush needed next, to show his people and the world that HE is in charge of the situation? Another Scapegoat - this time Saddam. OK, I agree that Saddam was no Angel, but did you know that there are around 30 tyrannts around the wolrd at this time, killing their own people, torturing them - are they not supporters of International Terrorism? Why is Saddam any different? First USA adored him - now he is in prison. First he was on CIA help list - then on CIA hitlist; just like OBL.

And by Invading Iraq, without any international support (except Great Britain and PM Blair), US forces started to destabilize the region of Middle East even more then it was before they arrived. How many insurgent attacks were there before the Iraqi War? The numbers are saying that International Terrorism TRIPPLED in the past year - and the attacks in Iraq have not just trippled - there are NINE TIMES many attacks that before in Iraq alone, which makes Baghdad the most Dangerous place on Earth. Peace and stability does not come wrapped in armour and helmets - killing only brings more killing. Thats the oldest stroy in the book! If the Bush administration REALLY wanted to get rid of world wide terrorism, they should use other ways - not invading countries that are "supposed to support them". As I said before, when IRA detonates a bomb in London, british airplanes do not go and bomb Belfast or the entire North Ireland - they go and find the ones responisble and arrest them! That is the CIVILIZED WAY of dealing with terrorism. Or what would happen if Cops killed the entire family of a murderer instead of arresting him and putting him in prison or giving him a death sentance in Court of Law. You cant always fight Fire with Fire - because sooner or later EVERYTHING will be ON FIRE! And that is not good, not good at all.

But its too late for that now - what is done cant be undone. US troops are now in Iraq, conducting the role of Iraqi Police, trying their best to keep the country togather, when it is falling apart by the minute. Yes there are innocent people dying everyday, either by a US bullets and bombs or by insurgets attacks and suicide bombers. Somebody mentioned that US troops dont target civilians - take a look at the city of Fallujah and then say that again.

Anyway, what diffrence does it make to the dead and the injured if they were hit by US bombs and bullets or by insurgents? Or to their families? Bottom line is that there is still a war going on in Iraq - it might not be a standard type of war, but it is still a war, since people die on everyday basis.

So, do you think that American Forces are in Iraq Protecting Humanity or are they only Protecting their Global Interests in Iraq?

Is USA really the Sensitive World Police that protects Truth and Rights?

With so many resources at disposal I belive in American that would really Help the World, that would really feed the hungry and help the ones in need. I see American soldiers in Africa, hunting down evil warlords, that slaughter, rape and kill thousands of people a day. I see American soldiers helping to build bridges, not destroy them. But today in the world of Geopolitics it does not matter if you are hungry and poor. Every fifth human on this World lives with less than 1 USD a day, and goes to his bed hungry (that is around 800 million people!). One Third of the enitre World Population is currently at war. More than 70% of the World Population has never heard the sound of the telephone. Americans every year spend 10 billion dollars on pornography - the same ammount USA offers as international help (and ofcourse Isreal gets most of that money - not the 800 million hungry).

So I ask you, where is Justice?

The ONLY way to stop Terrorism is to stop participating in it - and War against Terrorism is terrorism by itself (War = Terrorism). But I guess that wil not happen, since for the year 2006 USA military budget has reached the Record number of 487 BILLION DOLLARS!

So, how is that going to help us get rid of International Terrorism that threatens the Free World exactly?

More Fire to fight the Fire?



posted on Apr, 29 2005 @ 11:03 AM
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Originally posted by syrinx high priest
hey souljah,
what about all the wonderful muderers car bombing thier own people, police stations, schools, and hospitals ? ? why isn't that outrageous to you



he is not going to answer this he has to my knowledge NEVER posted one thread lamenting the fate of THOSE Iraqis.

The only ones that concerne him are those WE kill. The rest mean nothing.



posted on Apr, 29 2005 @ 11:11 AM
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Originally posted by Amuk
he is not going to answer this he has to my knowledge NEVER posted one thread lamenting the fate of THOSE Iraqis.

The only ones that concerne him are those WE kill. The rest mean nothing.

I NEVER said that the rest mean nothing!

Every dead person in this St00pid War is tragic - how many dead nobody really knows. The problem is the vicious circle which cannot be avoided. Do you honestly think that USA is really stopping International Terrorism by having US Forces deployed in Iraq? As I remember the numbers have tripled in the year 2004. Why is that? Wasnt the World after 3 years of USA Interventions in the Middle East supposed to be SAFER?



posted on Apr, 29 2005 @ 11:21 AM
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Originally posted by Souljah

Originally posted by Amuk
he is not going to answer this he has to my knowledge NEVER posted one thread lamenting the fate of THOSE Iraqis.

The only ones that concerne him are those WE kill. The rest mean nothing.

I NEVER said that the rest mean nothing!

Every dead person in this St00pid War is tragic - how many dead nobody really knows. The problem is the vicious circle which cannot be avoided. Do you honestly think that USA is really stopping International Terrorism by having US Forces deployed in Iraq? As I remember the numbers have tripled in the year 2004. Why is that? Wasnt the World after 3 years of USA Interventions in the Middle East supposed to be SAFER?




You never said ANYTHING about the bystanders the Insurgents kill. Since you have no problem mentioning any real or Jahidunspun BS that you can find about those we kill and never say ONE WORD about the innocent Iraqis killed by the Insurgents it is Obvious that THEIR LIVES dont mean as much to you.

Or could it be because you would have to admit the those you worship as heros are AT LEAST as bad if not WORSE than those you decry?

Do you think that they are SAVING lives by bombing THERE OWN FREAKING PEOPLE? If they TRULY wanted us out they would stop killing their own and quit giving the "GREAT SATAN" a reason to be there.


Again ......WHY HAVE YOU NEVER STARTED ONE THREAD DECRYING THE INSURGENTS MURDER OF INNOCENTS?

[edit on 29-4-2005 by Amuk]



posted on Apr, 29 2005 @ 11:24 AM
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To Souljah:
Very true, you cant think killing will stop future killing. This so called war isnt for anything but money/oil. Bush lied to us as about the WMD. Question, do you thing US soldiers are running around shooting and killing at will ie terror? Yes the bombing of Iraq was a crime in my mind but please understand the state of Iraq now. Its a nation of crime gangs and no real government in real terms US forces are the only source of peace and lawfulness here. I understand that doesnt mean much since we(Rumsfield and what not) ficked up Iraq to begin with. Overall, soldiers are helping give most Iraqi a good image of the US. People all around the world have the sme dreams and hope and wishes. You dont like killing, 99.99 percent of people everywhere dont. Thats true with soldiers and Iraqis too. When I talk to Iraqis they want to know about my kids or what the weather is like back home, what my dogs names is and what not. They're jsut like us. The more we(soldiers) show them we are just like them too the less people confuse the issues of whos killing who? People care and can see beyond this fake war. If the US and Iraq traded place the US public(inclueding you I asume) woud be up in arms and shooting and bombing the Iraqi forces right? Well only about 3 percent of all Iraqis have anyhting to do with that stuff. They're very enilighted people. You may want to see Iraq though their eyes before you make simple points about terror.



posted on Apr, 29 2005 @ 11:52 AM
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The murders of Iraqis by insurgents are despicable, but if there had been no invasion, there would be no insurgency.

Our invasion has triggered a civil war in Iraq, a fact that is slowly becoming more apparent. The casualties from the Iraqi insurgency are a direct consequence of a war we chose to fight.



posted on Apr, 29 2005 @ 12:00 PM
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Originally posted by xmotex
. The casualties from the Iraqi insurgency are a direct consequence of a war we chose to fight.


BS

If America was invaded and occupied would you KILL YOUR OWN PEOPLE?

How is that fighting the invasion?

And would our pulling out right now STOP the civil war or just start an even worse bloodbath?

[edit on 29-4-2005 by Amuk]



posted on Apr, 29 2005 @ 12:13 PM
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Let's pretend that we never invaded Iraq and Sadaam is still in power. Now with Sadaam in power his people are running around scared for their lives because his Army and other people are walking down the street and just killing for no reason.

This is how it was with Sadaam running the country and Iraqi's were just plain scared to stand up for themselves.

I would also like to clarify one thing I did not say that I don't agree with why we are here. I did however say, I do not agree with the reason we came here." So this means I agree with why we are now here and can't leave until things are under control.



posted on Apr, 29 2005 @ 12:16 PM
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Originally posted by Amuk
You never said ANYTHING about the bystanders the Insurgents kill. Since you have no problem mentioning any real or Jahidunspun BS that you can find about those we kill and never say ONE WORD about the innocent Iraqis killed by the Insurgents it is Obvious that THEIR LIVES dont mean as much to you.

First of all - who created the Instabile Situation in Iraq? Why are there people fighting each other? It is obvious that those killings would not happen, if the USA never invaded Iraq.

"Either you with us, or you are the Terrorist!"

OK, so the US Army goes to rescue Iraqi people from Evil Dictator and give them liberty and freedom - instead they only created another Middle East Crisis, as if there are not enough of them already. USA has destabilized the entire region of Iraq and ofcourse people die everyday. But the Job of US troops is to help the Iraqi people, to protect them - but that job is getting harder by the day, since there are not frontlines. The USA Army, built to fight big Soviet Troops is bogged down in Urban Area, where it stands no chance against any attacks. They are far too big and they deliver far more damage with powerful bombs and tanks and "special" ammunition. Even the USArmy personell dont know how much damage a bomb really makes, and how many people really died in that blast. Lets not forget Shock and Awe and how many innocent people perished then. The insurgents are really small fish compared to the devastation that USArmy leaves behind, when they are over with the attack. But hey - that is not Terrorism, that is Collateral Damage right?
Or could it be because you would have to admit the those you worship as heros are AT LEAST as bad if not WORSE than those you decry?



Do you think that they are SAVING lives by bombing THERE OWN FREAKING PEOPLE? If they TRULY wanted us out they would stop killing their own and quit giving the "GREAT SATAN" a reason to be there.

As I said before - its the US troops that ignited the Civil War in Iraq.

But I must admit that you are right here - both sides fight for a reason, both sides "bomb the people of Iraq", so they are basicly two of the same kind, and they both Need each other. Why is that, you will ask. Simple - the greedy corporations feed on despair of Iraqi people, ALL IRAQI PEOPLE: the people who work, the people who fight, the people who die. They wouldnt die, if there were not corporations making money out of this situation. War = Profit. War = Stocks. War = Money. So, why would the Corporations that started this war want it to End soon anyway? Or why would they want it EVER to end? They are the GREAT SATAN and the reason American people, the Iraqi people and every others are dying in Iraq by the hour.

War Profiteers

Exactly one year after the United States launched the dawn invasion of Iraq, war profiteering by multinational companies is at an all-time high with military contractors dramatically boosting revenues by 19% over 2002. Check out our website that focuses on the companies profiting from war in Iraq, Afghanistan, Colombia, the Congo, and beyond.


CorpWatch

War Profiteers Site



So who do you think will stop first? The guy who makes alot of money or the guy who is defending his home.



Again ......WHY HAVE YOU NEVER STARTED ONE THREAD DECRYING THE INSURGENTS MURDER OF INNOCENTS?

Have you ever started a thread decrying the US Troops Murder of Innocents?

[edit on 29/4/05 by Souljah]



posted on Apr, 29 2005 @ 12:18 PM
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If America was invaded and occupied would you KILL YOUR OWN PEOPLE?


Depends, most resistance groups tend to kill collaborators.
Ask the Free French or any other resistance group from WW2.

The mass casualty attacks are unusual when you look at it as a simple resistance movement, not so unusual for a civil war though.

It's all irrelevant, as I am not particularly interested in making excuses for the insurgents, or justifying their actions.

As an American, I only have a say in what the US does, and in this case, the US made a tragic mistake, and thousands are dying because of it.

Tell me, do you really think these attacks would be occuring if the US had not invaded?



posted on Apr, 29 2005 @ 12:24 PM
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No way in heck Americans would target other Americans to "repel" an occupier. I just cant even imagine it. Its just not the culture. And this isnt a "proud American" statement, I just beleive this to the core of my being that it woudlnt happen. I still cannot even believe Iraqis are doing it!!



posted on Apr, 29 2005 @ 12:37 PM
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Originally posted by IncognitoGhostman
Let's pretend that we never invaded Iraq and Sadaam is still in power. Now with Sadaam in power his people are running around scared for their lives because his Army and other people are walking down the street and just killing for no reason.

This is how it was with Sadaam running the country and Iraqi's were just plain scared to stand up for themselves.

Yea, when Saddam was in his Greatest Power he was also a Great USA ally in the Middle East and I always like to post this picture in this kind of discussion.





After Khomeini gained power, skirmishes between Iraq and revolutionary Iran occurred for ten months over the sovereignty of the disputed Shatt al-Arab waterway, which divides the two countries. Iraq and Iran entered into open warfare on September 22, 1980. The pretext for hostilities with Iran was this territorial dispute, but the war was more likely an attempt by Saddam, supported by both the United States and the Soviet Union, to have Iraq form a bulwark against the expansion of radical Iranian-style revolution.

On March 16, 1988 Iraqi troops, attempting to crush a Kurdish uprising in the Al-Anfal Campaign, attacked the Kurdish town of Halabjah with a mix of poison gas and nerve agents, perhaps killing around five thousand people, mostly civilians. Dissenting opinions dispute the numbers and have said the incident was actually a battle in the Iran–Iraq war where chemical weapons were used on both sides and a significant portion of the fatalities were caused by the Iranian weapons. Whether or not Iran had used chemical weapons in that particular battle remains unclear.

Saddam reached out to other Arab governments for cash and political support. Iraq successfully gained the support of the United States and took supply of chemical weapons from them. The Iranians, hoping to bring down Saddam's secular government and instigate a Shi'ite rebellion in Iraq, refused a cease-fire until 1988.

source: Wikipedia



posted on Apr, 29 2005 @ 12:39 PM
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Originally posted by skippytjc
No way in heck Americans would target other Americans to "repel" an occupier. I just cant even imagine it. Its just not the culture. And this isnt a "proud American" statement, I just beleive this to the core of my being that it woudlnt happen. I still cannot even believe Iraqis are doing it!!

The Americans have done it before.

American Civil War 1861–1865



posted on Apr, 29 2005 @ 12:52 PM
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To xmotex: Im thinkin this idea of a civil war is great. The problem here is that we(CIA) started this war in the 60s. Its no serect how we supported Turkey and Saddam to kill Kurds. Second the whole Sunni support right up to today. We(CIA) cant have a large pouplar #e movement in Iraq. PS there is a very very small terror cell(Sunni) in Iraq now. Its pulls off most of the mass bombings. The attacks on US force arent fund by them. US attacks are still dont most by #e(Iran supported) small local groups. The real killing however is being done by gangs and hijackers out for a buck.h




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