Tipping the scales of Duality

a reply to: socialmediaclown

I like this perspective, thank you for sharing. It's true that we tend to sometime preffer following roads paved by others before us, especially when we lack confidence in ourselves. I must say, I still feel like I am walking roads that were made by others most times, when I actually am ''walking'' that is (experiencing, seeking, learning, sharing). I am beggining to have my personal way of seeing things as I believe they ought to be and I could think of a specific way the world could be ''better'', as in, where I would be happier and more fullfiled, in theory at least.

I dont plan on imposing my views on others and the world at large as regimes have done time and time again (not merelly because I see it as unethical and infringing on others individual right to chose for themselves, but also because I have neither the means nor charisma to instill such change in the first place). I am left hoping I will eventually find myself better attuned to a world where I can feel happy and at home at last and perhaps even remember why I left in the first place.

Anyway, I may have taken this too far with my bit about revolution, since I think you were alluding to making my own life be the way I mean it to be. If thats the case, I am willing to try it even though circumstances and the world with it's currents can play a role in wether or not I succeed at first.

a reply to: pthena

I understand your experience of life left you with the belief that this may be all there is to it, life in this often confusing world, then death; the end.

Here is a mere proposition and a possibility, based on my own beliefs and perspective; you stumbled upon my thread, which talk about the possibility of life beyond this realm and the spiritual side of our experience, while suggesting to me an album of divinely inspired Handel (which happen to be one of my favorite so far by the way).

It may appear to be mere coincidence and from a different perspective it might be, but what if this is one of the little ways the spiritual side of life was trying to speak to you, while also honoring your free will and respective belief system ? I dont think I ever were directly contacted either, not in an obvious manner at least.

Still, I know very much how annoying it can be to feel pressured about our beliefs and I only wanted to share my insight. I'm glad you came here, you were amongst those who greeted me on ATS a few days ago and I appreciate that.

a reply to: TerryMcGuire

I am glad we seem to be able to understand each other well. This is what I get from your replies as well, it is very refreshing to see your investment in sharing novel perspectives on these subjects, as I longed to be able to have a conversation on this level for some time. Coming to ATS was a good move I think, thus far. It's not that I never met someone who would engage me like this, merely that I seldom dared make it happen before. The internet has this going for it.

I am not well versed in this period for music, I listened to some Elvis and Frank Sinatra which I believe fall roughly within the 1940-50 era, but did not know about neither Bing Crosby or the Andrew Sisters before you mentionned them. While risking being a bit too broad with my view, I think music from that time had a particular charisma about it, like it had a commanding type of presence. Perhaps it is simply a direct imprint manifested from the persona of its musicians. I believe what you say about some music from that time teaching morals and the right way of doing things, some of the time at least.

Nice version of Bach Toccata and Fugue in D minor by the way, I quite like it. Sound very clean, precise and clear to me. The image you suggest feel kind of uncanny, I hardly can see it happening, but as we said before, similar things have been attempted (cello version of Metallica songs and I can think of a few other things akin to that) so you never know, right ?

If we can use this thread as an opportunity to consider new perspectives after all, then I would say it was very much worth making it.

a reply to: AcrobaticDreams

Thank you, I am glad this thread and its content could peek your interest.

There is indeed some restlessness in me, from the beggining of my life I had this feeling something was not quite right, that I lost my way somehow. I remember feeling scared and confused, I still do at times but at least I feel like I have a direction to go for now.

If you have a proposition regarding this matter of a quest for purpose, I would be curious to hear it if you feel like sharing, most of us are on this same quest after all while here.

originally posted by: Seeker42
a reply to: AcrobaticDreams

Thank you, I am glad this thread and its content could peek your interest.

There is indeed some restlessness in me, from the beggining of my life I had this feeling something was not quite right, that I lost my way somehow. I remember feeling scared and confused, I still do at times but at least I feel like I have a direction to go for now.

If you have a proposition regarding this matter of a quest for purpose, I would be curious to hear it if you feel like sharing, most of us are on this same quest after all while here.

Do not think in ‘Us’ but ‘I’.

a reply to: AcrobaticDreams

Do not think in ‘Us’ but ‘I’.

Maybe my use of ''us'' gave the impression that I am talking for everyone, but I cant really do that, nor do I think I ought to try. I believe a minimal degree of cooperation, tolerence and authentic living (I would add a certain degree of openness to spiritual insight, but this is my take) is necessary to ensure the continuity of mankind and possibly reach a better state of affairs globally, yet I cant pretend I know with certainty what is actually ''meant to be'', or what would be best for all.

I merely wish the ''best'' for ''us all'', perhaps naively so.

So I guess what you suggest, is to become the change I want to see in the world, by focusing on my own journey for purpose and not to expect feeling supported for my choices all the time. Living my principles no matter what. It takes courage for such a thing, so I hope my heart will prove true in due time.

(I may talk a lot, maybe it feels too much for some and I can understand that, since words are sometime best used sparingly as you just proved. Yet I think this is just the natural swing of the pendulum for me; going back from years of social restrain and silent inner reflection.)

I'll come back tomorrow after some sleep. Thanks to everyone who dropped by, it was a pleasant experience for me !

a reply to: Seeker42

You haven’t had much opportunity to express yourself so this is your time to let loose a little, type as much as you want.

Contemplate silently on what, ‘Do not think in ‘us’ but ‘I’’ means.

That quote needs to be added as a preamble to the new declaration of independence, when the time comes.
Bill Hicks was so cool.

originally posted by: LittleByLittle
“The world is like a ride in an amusement park, and when you choose to go on it you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. The ride goes up and down, around and around, it has thrills and chills, and it's very brightly colored, and it's very loud, and it's fun for a while. Many people have been on the ride a long time, and they begin to wonder, "Hey, is this real, or is this just a ride?" And other people have remembered, and they come back to us and say, "Hey, don't worry; don't be afraid, ever, because this is just a ride." And we … kill those people. "Shut him up! I've got a lot invested in this ride, shut him up! Look at my furrows of worry, look at my big bank account, and my family. This has to be real." It's just a ride. But we always kill the good guys who try and tell us that, you ever notice that? And let the demons run amok … But it doesn't matter, because it's just a ride. And we can change it any time we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings of money. Just a simple choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love instead see all of us as one. Here's what we can do to change the world, right now, to a better ride. Take all that money we spend on weapons and defenses each year and instead spend it feeding and clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would pay for many times over, not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace.”
― Bill Hicks

a reply to: Seeker42

you stumbled upon my thread, which talk about the possibility of life beyond this realm and the spiritual side of our experience

Nothing really mysterious about finding new threads. There is a leaf icon on top of the page.

I've come to accept spirit as Motive Force behind and within material Universe. Not anything like deterministic Prime Mover who hits the cue ball with the stick then goes away. But rather is active still.

a reply to: Seeker42

For your view on reincarnation, I admit to being ambivalent as well, for similar reasons.

I hope that you know that the ultimate goal of reincarnation is to reach the level where you get to be annihilated. Living once then dying pretty much hits that goal.

a reply to: Seeker42

Even at it's best, internet conversation is difficult. Lack of all those other forms of communication available to us in face to face conversation is makes it so. Facial gestures, body language and timing. The time between replies from even a minute or two out to hours leave so much to be desired. This conversation, thanks to your thread have been rewarding for me as well. I look forward to more of your thoughts 42.

a reply to: Seeker42

...do you think that we always need evil in order to have good?

Questions like these can be answered truthfully on different levels, I think.

On one level, yes indeed, there can be no good without the existence of evil. And it may also be argued that good needs to exist in order for evil to exist. If there were nothing good there would be nothing evil.

On another level, neither good nor evil are real in any absolute sense, but are conditional. All things incorporate what we call good and evil in their composition, and one's experience of a thing is what determines whether we call it good or evil. Of course, that in turn depends on the persons we are and the circumstances of our experience.

are [good and evil] somehow illusory archetypes of underlying primordial forces necessary to have a coherent experience of life from 3d perspective?

I certainly don't think good and evil are illusions. In practical terms, they are ways to judge social behaviour, and they arise from our social instincts. Selfish behaviour is evil. Unselfish, altruistic behaviour is good. But it is really quite hard to tell the difference, because even the most selfish act will have some benefit for others besides the actor, and even the most altruistic action is going to cause harm to something or someone.

This is a great paradox that no human ethical system has been able to resolve. Jain devotees sweep the ground in front of them before they take a single step, and filter their drinking-water through cloth − rituals intended to prevent them from taking even the smallest life by accident. But as we have known since the invention of the microscope, their precautions are futile: we cannot move, eat, drink or even breathe without destroying countless tiny lives. An apparently more sophisticated way of judging the ethicality of an action is Benthamism, an early form of liberalism in which the acts judged to be best are those that produce the greatest good for the greatest number. However, this produces a terrible reductio ad absurdum, which the writer Ursula LeGuin emotively illustrated in her famous short story The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas. It’s only three pages (NB: PDF) − read it and you will see what the problem is.

I imagined that the metaphorical scale I was alluding to was presently tipping somewhat in favor of evil in this world

Not evil, but the effects of entropy and its good friend the Law of Unintended Consequences.

I can learn to see things from a different perspective if need be. Right now, with my own understanding of things and their working I believe we need more ''good'' to make this place worth living in.

Who am I to change your understanding of things? I am merely trying to provide you with some food for thought.

And so I would encourage you to contemplate the taijitu (the symbol I posted earlier) a little longer. Black and white are not necessarily good and evil; they stand for all complementary opposites, such as up and down, happy and sad, light and shade, salt and sour, bitter and sweet. Note that the two tadpole-like figures each have a dot of the opposite colour at the centre of their very thickest or fullest portions − what does that signify, do you think? What about the fact that the symbol is symmetrical, but not in a static way − it is rotationally symmetrical. What does that mean?

Some will try to convince you that there is no duality, that all is One. Others will present the world to you as a constant war between opposite tendencies. Both outlooks fail to comprehend the subtle nature of realiy. The taijitu embodies and explains it.

a reply to: Astyanax

Not evil, but the effects of entropy and its good friend the Law of Unintended Consequences.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. The increase in corrupt governments and extremely high violent crime rates around the world are not the effects of entropy or the Law of Unintended Consequences. It's pure evil.

a reply to: Seeker42

Now I may be slightly drifting here, but I personnaly tried apathy in the form of numbness myself (namely spiritual bypassing and emotional repression) as an escape because of intense psychological and spiritual suffering that seemed well beyond my immediate control, but it eventually made me allienated with my own self and feel very hollow, disconnected. I now strive to undo the damage and remember what being human is all about, although it can prove incredibly puzzling at times... So even though it sound nice in theory (and in Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon) being numb is nothing comfortable to me and more akin to a nightmare of sort.

Your words above ring true for me at this juncture in time in my life because right now I choose the mind over intuition and it may be just as you imply, an escape from that which I cannot control. However for me it's not a path of numbing my emotions but rather governing them.

We can't ignore what we are, that being, a naked ape with a wondrous biocomputer/reptile brain, in over our heads with our brilliance and our violence. Could this be the duality we need to address and then learn to govern?

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Seeker42

For your view on reincarnation, I admit to being ambivalent as well, for similar reasons.

I hope that you know that the ultimate goal of reincarnation is to reach the level where you get to be annihilated. Living once then dying pretty much hits that goal.

Nirvana.

When duality is considered a lower realm, waking in up it what seems to have been your life is quite the culture shock. Having to live further from then on with people still stuck in their primitive ways is quite another culture shock.

The soul is not so vibrant.

Copyright Slipknot - Psychosocial

a reply to: Untun

Copyright Slipknot - Psychosocial

Now I'm going to have to look that up.

a reply to: Deetermined

I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. The increase in corrupt governments and extremely high violent crime rates around the world are not the effects of entropy or the Law of Unintended Consequences. It's pure evil.

What increase in corruption?

You should read more history.

a reply to: Astyanax

There is a lot to unpack here, I am glad you took the time because it's not lost on me.

Selfish behaviour is evil. Unselfish, altruistic behaviour is good. But it is really quite hard to tell the difference, because even the most selfish act will have some benefit for others besides the actor, and even the most altruistic action is going to cause harm to something or someone.

I have often observed this happening, our actions pretty much always end up having uninteded consequences, wether good or bad. It also seem to be reflected in the symbol you call Taijitu, with the white and black dot from both side contrasting the dark or light part.

Going by this understanding of duality, which you seem to suggest near the end of your reply is in fact complementary, I would have a few additional questions. Of course anyone is free to add their insight.

Do you think every individual is made from an equal share of the good and evil principles, constantly trying to find balance to return to this state of equilibrium ? I know there are many ways this could be so without us being all the same, since there are various traits which can constitute a person.

What then would happen when this balance get heavily upset, a person trying only to act on his perceived good or bad impulses ? If this was essentially an opposition to our human nature I can see how we would end up suffering from heavy cognitive dissonance.

Then what if the balance is unavoidable to some extent ? What if no matter how good or bad we think we are, we subcounsciously try to compensate our good impulses with our bad to reach the state of equilibrium. It can be sneaky, given our innate ability for self rationalization, denial and all such tendencies of the human psyche. Of course it may not be so neat and tidy, but I can imagine how most people would have to deal with this conundrum to some extent.

There is also a matter that confuse and trouble me, a moral dilemma of sort. I understand that true good tend to respect the free will of others and evil tend not to care much beyond its interests, this surely is due to the conflict of their opposite nature.

Now imagine an evil person (let's say a compulsive liar, thief and serial murderer) who survive a shipwreck and find himself on the beach of a small island where lives a pacifist and kind spirited people who respect the sanctity of all life and thrive on harmonious and peaceful collaboration. I imagine he would come to associate with them somehow for survival or human company, at least for a short while.I dont think they would force him to conform to all their ideals in order to receive hospitality and if they ask for something in fair compensation for their help, I imagine it would be a fair trade for him, like maybe help them with some repairs in their village or take care of their crops.

There is also the possibility that he could try and abuse whatever trust he manage to receive from them by way of deceit, to profit further from their selfless ideals. Perhaps the community elders would have sufficient wisdom and awareness then to take notice of it and attempt to demonstrate to him the errors of his ways and manage even to inspire some sort of redemptive process and change of perspective. It is also probable he will not care one bit about their moral and spiritual teachings, which he may perceive as impractical or even harmful to his own interests and then keep trying to abuse them.

I am not sure exactly what they would do to remedy the situation at this point, but surely a lone man wont manage to continually impose his selfish ways on a whole village, right ? Especially since he would act in opposition with the very principles and beliefs that define them and made their community thrive in the first place. I imagine when he realize being a nuisance to them lead him nowhere worthwile, he would either assimilate with them or they themselves would go the extra step to help him rebuild a ship, provide him with supplies for his journey and send him to return from whence he came.

Then, you have an other possible side to this allegory. A good man (for instance, a very devout and pious monk, who is humble and selfless) happen to shipwreck on a different island, where lives a tribe deeply involved in some evil practices, lets say for instance; cannibalism, black magic and they pray to some dark deity who demand ritual human sacrifice. They also love fights to the death to cull the weaker of their people and also to earn themselves the favor of their dark deity. Just like the first exemple, I think it is reasonable to assume that unless the good man is made aware of their ways before he directly stumble upon them, they will come to interract at some point, although this group will probably come to treat the outsider as property.

I have a hard time seeing him have his way or escape their influence so easily as the other man.

Wether in the end he is forcefully assimilated, enslaved or simply left alone to fend for himself in the wild (this third option seem like the ''best'' one for him), I can't see a potential scenario where he keep true to his good principles all the while enjoying better survival odds (for a time) and other social benefits of cooperation with this people. I guess the truest path of action would be to take the high risk road and stay true to his good principles no matter what, but things may proceed badly for him.

The moral dilemma I see in a situation like this (or similar); the good man must essentialy choose between staying true to his principles and risk persecution and death, or let himself be corrupted and assimilated by the evil tribe in an attempt to survive and possibly thrive. This is not the same dilemma for the evil man, since he can still profit somehow from a degree of collaboration with a gentler people, even if he has to act somewhat contrary to his nature.

I think for goodness to prevail in someone and define him, hence dominating his nature and will, it has to remain relatively ''pure'', it has to be somewhat consistant over time and in various situations. I dont see the principles of goodness to be as adaptative to it's opposite principles as evil appear to be. Of course, I imagine there is a neutral stance wich sometime can resolve parts of this apparent conflict, but neutrality seem to me rather indifferent, uninvolved or downright apathetic at times, which can surely prove to cause its own problems as well.

Back to your reply, like you illustrated by your examples on Jainism and Benthamism, there indeed seem to be many differing views concerning what exactly constitute true morality. I think there is merit to a lot of them, although in the end we may have a hard time to reach a general consensus. Nevertheless, I would personally prefer meeting someone practicing his morality according to an understanding of Jainism or Benthamism than someone who lives mostly in accordance with his personnal take on Thelema, for instance.

I agree that it does seems like certain things of opposite nature, when operating in a harmonious process, happen to make possible an experience of great beauty and value that we would perhaps otherwise fail to notice. It is much more impactful to experience some loving kindness after a bad day, a star shine beautifully in the darkness of night and some grief make it less likely to take joy for granted. Contrast create impact.

a reply to: Seeker42

Reading those moral dilemmas you outlined reminded me of this movie I saw once.


See also this: www.abovetopsecret.com...