Karma and Free Will - Earth Fiction (?)

originally posted by: Seer13
Hi lovely Earth Fam. I'm an ATS newbie and here's my first post (prob. to be added to my dossier, gasp! 😉)

Here it is:

There are those that would have me believe that there are such things as karma and free will.

Now, the problem presents itself in that very sentence: There are those that would have me believe ..

However, if I look at karma, it has the very makings of an Earth fiction using human behavioural psychology (Pavlov's dog anyone?). This Earth life is saturated with reward and punishment systems used to control behavour. In that 'light', karma looks to be man-made not divine.

'If' we are in fact portions of the One (God/Source etc.) why would the One/we need to punish and reward itself/ourselves? That seems very distorted. Much like the distortion that encrouches every aspect of Earth life. Again, not seeming very divine.

The One (us in full form) is said to be all-knowing, not lacking, not separate. Therefore, it should not need lessons, rewards or punishments--

Free will. I often hear and read that I/we have free will. Yet, every day I can point to multiple instances where that is incorrect. 2+2 does 'not' equal 5!

The only way I can make any sense of 'these views' is by the following.

Being all-knowing and perfect may get boring. So, as souls we choose to have a wide range of experiences. In choosing and planning them we use unlimited free will. But, once on Earth we forget so we can experience it as a reality. However, as it is pre-planned -chosen -determined, it does not allow for much free will.

Back to karma. So, if karma is an Earth fiction (to keep many inline having that type of experience) that would mean there is no good, bad, right and wrong. Only experiences that we chose pre-incarnating using free will. No punishments or rewards required/necessary.

Those that chose the experience of 'Architects' are to ensure the plans stay intact. Therefore, they have some of the blueprints.

What say ye fellow deep thinkers? Do you believe in the karma and free will theories we are 'told'? If not, what holes do you see in the stories and what are your views?

the only response i have to the term perfect as you have used it here

perfect is a word we made up to describe beauty which is a word we made up to describe value which is a word we made up to describe purpose which is a word we made up to...

you see where this goes

people making stuff up, including karma and free will

science says 90% of decisions are made without conscious thought and 90% of matter is empty air yet life persists

do with that information what you will, hopefully something beautiful

a reply to: Seer13

Could be that there are no fallen angels, just angels. Many humans like to dramatise, we love a good story and there's those that sensationalise, not mentioning names or organisations.

I fear scientists are trying to ruin our fantasies/beliefs/reality by discovering all the (ahem) 'chemicals' our brains can produce in times of high stress, pain, NDE's, mental illness, etc. that are said to be far more potent than the 'herbal' variety.

A great mystery is SO enjoyable, but when you reach the end it can leave you with a somewhat sad and empty feeling.

Mind games and slavery like conditioned animals thats all I have seen ever of the human monkey thats lost its tail and picks up another in the mouth

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: Seer13
LOL nice one, re:

Just remeber, and take it from there...

(I'm still figuring out out the ATS tools)

. I was told by mod to grow a thicker skin. Proved to be good advice. Welcome!


Hi

All good, thanks for the tip.

I guess in this World it is a key quality to have and develop. Fortunately, I rarely take things personally. I'm not interested in arguing or enforcing, I like to work collectively. I welcome and respect differences and rights to opinions. I actually seek out different views and sides so I get the bigger picture in order to make educated conclusions without bias. Anyone is welcome to disagree with my views in a polite respectful manner. But, if they are rude or antagonistic I'm not interested. I don't expect everyone to agree with me as I don't always agree with others. How someone acts is their problem not mine, they are responsible for themselves.

I was trying to figure out the meanings of the icons/buttons to use when replyiing, thatwas the meaning of my message.

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
Karma is a Hindu belief.


a reply to: Seer13

Is that where it came from? I see it bandied about so much now yet a few years back it wasn't common talk. It has grown in popularity.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Seer13

Welcome to ATS.

Your words imply that you see free will as something real before incarnation, but fictional after.

I don't have any particular reason to believe I chose anything before being. Before being I was not.

I have strong reason to believe, and every indication points to the fact that, I will never reach the blessed state that some label non-duality.

The reason is quite simple: I am daimon possessed. Now don't freak out. It isn't weird, I assure you. Quite natural.

Daimon literally means "of divine origin". Some people may call their own daimon "the soul", "conscience", perhaps even "Holy Spirit". Daimon can actually be translated as Holy Spirit. See, not weird at all.

My daimon is part of the me, yet separate too, at the same time. Think of conscience now. Is it you, talking to yourself, or is it something not you, talking to you? Or is it both?

Again, I must caution you not to freak out. For all intents and purposes, this Daimon is my personal deity. Did my God create the Universe? No. Is my God immortal, eternal? No. Does my God control the fates of all people? No.

My God is every bit as small and weak as I am. It's part of a package deal. We began together and we will end together.

So I'm disqualified from labels like "non-duality" and even "Atheist".

Now good karma: If someone or something is benefitted by something I say, do, don't say or don't do; then good for them! Yay!

Bad karma: If someone or something is harmed by something I say, do, don't say or don't do; then sad for them. I'm sorry! And I hope you can recover.

Personal Guilt/Sin/Badness: These things weigh upon me. They don't just go away. I can't just transfer them to someone else (the premise of Christianity). So I'm disqualified from that. Neither are these transferred to some future person (the premise of re-incarnation) So I'm disqualified from that.

I am disqualified from all these Worldviews which have such great numbers of people who hold them.

I choose my Worldview freely, without societal or peer pressure, in the privacy of me and my daimon, in joint consultation and agreement.

Now how is that for free will?

Hi. Thank you for your welcoming message and sharing your wonderfully unique belief.

It is great to see you have found what feels right for you and not gone with the flow. I appreciate individuality.

Don't worry I don't freak out about much at all, I consider myself to be very open minded and accepting of most things. I'm all for unity not division. You have intrigued me.

Who knows, you may have it right whilst the rest of us are off track. Who am I to judge when I walk imperfectly.

You responded: Your words imply that you see free will as something real before incarnation, but fictional after.

Yes, it's the only way I can make sense of the idea of free will as it doesn't apply much at all here on Earth (for me); even if I try hard to kid myself it may (tested it many times).

It's a bit like me saying ABRACADABRA and expecting a rock to turn to gold. If I had free will I could snap my fingers and say I want sunshine: voila the clouds clear. Or, I don't want someone I love to be harmed: voila! They live a safe life. It is not valid in my views and experiences on Earth.

I don't know what exists on the other side but I hope we have that freedom off planet.

I highly suspect this belief has become on trend now because there are those who are installing that mindset. Useful, in a time where the little bit of free will we still have is decreasing constantly. The inversion. I remember times when we had a LOT more freedom!

a reply to: Seer13

I'm starting to suspect that if I try Hinduism, it would have to be a Bakti school of thought.

originally posted by: SigmaXSquared

the only response i have to the term perfect as you have used it here

perfect is a word we made up to describe beauty which is a word we made up to describe value which is a word we made up to describe purpose which is a word we made up to...

you see where this goes

people making stuff up, including karma and free will

science says 90% of decisions are made without conscious thought and 90% of matter is empty air yet life persists

do with that information what you will, hopefully something beautiful

Yes, humans are highly proficient at making things up, imagine if we applied all that energy to useful things.

I like your example of labels as I am not particularly fond of them.

Constant chaos.

I don't know the stats of decisions and matter so can't contribute to that part very much. If true, that's concerning that 90 % of decicions are made without conscious thought, it would explain a lot.

So, when you say 'do with the info. what I will, hopefully something beautiful' do you mean beautiful as in the dictionary meaning? Hahaha just having a laugh because I can never know right?

Thanks SigmaXSquared, if I am a ble I will use it for something beautiful 🌈

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Seer13

I'm starting to suspect that if I try Hinduism, it would have to be a Bakti school of thought.

Are you getting that urge rather than staying a free agent? I didn't know anything about Bakti but if a search online is anything to go by it looks like they have helpful values.

originally posted by: nugget1
a reply to: Seer13

Could be that there are no fallen angels, just angels. Many humans like to dramatise, we love a good story and there's those that sensationalise, not mentioning names or organisations.

I fear scientists are trying to ruin our fantasies/beliefs/reality by discovering all the (ahem) 'chemicals' our brains can produce in times of high stress, pain, NDE's, mental illness, etc. that are said to be far more potent than the 'herbal' variety.

A great mystery is SO enjoyable, but when you reach the end it can leave you with a somewhat sad and empty feeling.

Ah yes, quite intrusive.

LOL I agree, then to fill the emptiness we look for the next dopamine fix/mystery. Around and around we go.

originally posted by: Terpene
a reply to: Seer13

I Love those moments when synchronicity happen, it's such a subjective experience, yet all triggers are objective truths.
It's when our brain does some magic and connects previously unconnected ideas.
it can have huge implications for one's perception of reality.

I'mglad if it could contribute to see better in the darkness of ones own mind, but ultimately the data one collects from outside-in is irrelevant.

all relevant information is inside already, and all that matters is what we send out...

I had one of these connections after reading the Celestine Prophecy. You reminded me of it when you mentioned synchronicty. I was pleasantly surprised to find the content confirmed what I've discovered through my own experiences, even though written as though fictional. It discusses synchronycity in more depth than I'd gone and upon testing that approach I've had exciting results. Absolutely, a lot to be learnt and gained from correct use of energy.

Absolutely agree it is most important to go within. I get impatient so I look elsewhere while waiting for more internal leads. So, I get external data and then confirm with my internal check point.

originally posted by: Crowfoot
Mind games and slavery like conditioned animals thats all I have seen ever of the human monkey thats lost its tail and picks up another in the mouth

Sad isnt it? Do you think we've reached rock bottom and the only way is up? The current shinanigans have given many as big shake awake. Years' ago I thought we were a lost cause but now I have hope.

a reply to: Seer13

That limbo stage is also recognized in Buddhism. This page states that "intermediate state or bardo" ... "visions that occurred in the death process now occur in reverse order" etc.

I've thought about the One experiencing through us but to me that feels like I am being used

Yes our mind and body are being used. But what is created from dust returns to dust. Its perhaps better to think that the One has many eye's. One of those eyes is the core of your being that gives life to the atoms that is your mind and body. Your mind and body being cloths that your eye can regenerate when required.

a reply to: glend

The body and thoughts and sensations are constantly appearing different.....moving, changing.

What you are never changes....never moves....and is constant.

It's always present....seeing the changing.


The aware space is overlooked because it never shows up......it's invisible.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

I just been watching an amazing sermon that a homeless man gave to a man in a car some years ago. He said something that came into my head only months ago. Its not the destination but the journey that's important. Without the thoughts and sensations we would all exist in the void of emptiness. Its those thoughts and sensations that gives us life.

a reply to: glend

The thoughts appear and disappear in the emptiness.

Like writing on water.

Where is 2 seconds ago?

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: Seer13

That limbo stage is also recognized in Buddhism. This page states that "intermediate state or bardo" ... "visions that occurred in the death process now occur in reverse order" etc.

I've thought about the One experiencing through us but to me that feels like I am being used

Yes our mind and body are being used. But what is created from dust returns to dust. Its perhaps better to think that the One has many eye's. One of those eyes is the core of your being that gives life to the atoms that is your mind and body. Your mind and body being cloths that your eye can regenerate when required.

Thank you for providing the link and information. I studied and practised Buddhism some time ago but had forgotten this aspect. Probably intentionally LOL. There was a lot I loved about the philosophy and some I didn't. The some I didn't included forced reincarnations, and a degraded life if the death was not good.

Please do not take any offence to what I write, I write with good intentions but you may feel the energy of old wounds coming through if receptive. I explain so you recognise it as such and not as anything negative towards you or your post. I am doing my best to neutralise the energy. I feel it's necessary for me to share this, it gives more insight as to how I've come to my view of karma.

I cannot accept that the most kind, loving, generous and pure soul I ever knew on this Earth is now suffering in another lifetime for no fault of its own. The soul was murdered on this Earth and died a terrible death. I question, how can it be right that this soul spent a lifetime living like a saint only to be punished after death for something someone else did? It is enough to be murdered brutally but to then find yourself in a worse life ... That's not even meting the cause and effect principle.

Ironically, that soul had a blessing during its lifetime by a Buddhist Rinpoche to ensure a good transition and reincarnation ... No disrespect intended to Buddhists, I hold zero animosity towards them. Instead I send my love, they taught me some very valuable things I live by today.

However, this reminder only serves to confirm (for me) that karma is very likely something invented by a human on Earth.

My soul does not recognise the One to allow/create that kind of cruelty and unfairness. The Buddhist karma system, much like other karma systems, 'in my view' is lacking in love and compassion. The very things Buddhists teach to have. That's conflicting information. Red flag.

I do not know the One as a vengeful, spiteful God as is taught on this Earth through Christianity and karma. I feel Buddha's teachings got changed along the years, like most history of importance.

I know the One as a source of divine love, I have been fortunate enough to feel it. I know that this soul was treated with kindness, gentleness and immense love; it was not punished and has not reincarnated.

Having written all that, these are the experiences that have led me to the understandings I have on this subject.

I completely respect others will feel differently. I desire that people go with what feels right for them. If the system of karma feels good, great, I am very happy it feels right for other people. However, if I've highlighted things that others feel are worthy of consideration then that's good too. I suggest to trust your own intuition and supporting experiences.

Now here's some cute animals to 'lighten' the mood. 🐁🐿️🐰🐐🐖🐑🐱🐒😁💖

a reply to: Seer13

Are you getting that urge rather than staying a free agent?

Not really.
The truth of the matter is that in real life I don't even think about philosophies and religions. But I have a boring life, so I get a motivation to think by exchanging ideas on ATS.

Philosophizing is a way to take what you live, feel, know, and think and put it into words. Vocabularies change meanings. So by taking words and concepts in vogue at the time and testing yourself against these concepts may just help to understand oneself better.

And sometimes help others too, by accident. That's cool.

Take the word by itself:

Bhakti (Sanskrit: भक्ति) means "attachment, participation, fondness for, homage, faith, love, devotion, worship, purity".
- Wikipedia -

That to me is religion (binding) by definition. That's why I never made it far in Epicureanism, because that was the attempt to dis-attach from passions and piety(superstition) become all logical, clearheaded.

Maybe a mix of Bhakti in moderation and Epicurean in moderation in a sort of what is appropriate at the time, sort of bi-polar.
It could look like:
with others then alone then with then alone then with then alone. Kind of pendulumesque.

I probably won't take any deep dive into Bhakti because I'm too lazy to learn Sanskrit.

a reply to: pthena

I found this interesting:

Para bhakti dwells on the unmanifested brahman rather than anything with name and form. Apara bhakti, on the other hand, proceeds with the faith that the ultimate source of all things is a single supreme Being which is hence inherent in all things and can, therefore, be adored as such.

a reply to: Seer13

I do not know the One as a vengeful, spiteful God as is taught on this Earth through Christianity and karma. I feel Buddha's teachings got changed along the years, like most history of importance.

I know the One as a source of divine love, I have been fortunate enough to feel it. I know that this soul was treated with kindness, gentleness and immense love; it was not punished and has not reincarnated.

I think that you are smarter than I am. You put the One and Christian God in the same sentence.

The way I understand it is: The Christian God is considered to be a person. The One is not.

The Christian God judges the lives of people and embraces some and discards others.

The One, if I dare blaspheme by attributing attributes, is big enough to handle all. No judgement.

Karma and reincarnation may have been invented to justify Caste system, "You are low caste because you were a bad person in a prior life".

***** Warning this is new method I haven't tested yet ******
Let us use God as a literary character, a stand in for the One.

God is so big and so great a person that He/She can handle every person and every living being and objects without blowing a gasket. He can take it; the good and the bad. It doesn't freak Him out. He doesn't have to segregate.

He can remember everyone; each wonderful person and every non-achiever. It's remembrance by God which is Moksha (release) There is no cycle of rebirth. Moksha is the birthright of every being. God remembers. God cherishes the memory.
************
I think that I am satisfied by that answer.