Karma and Free Will - Earth Fiction (?)

a reply to: Itisnowagain
Thank you.

I don't dwell on the unmanifested () because () just is.
And I don't think of () as a person.

But ... In some way, I have an I-Thou relationship with ().
Maybe since I am a person, that's the only mechanism I have to relate to (),
Even though () isn't a person.

If that makes sense. It can't really be put into words adequately. But it feels right.

a reply to: Seer13

Its alright, I take no offense. Cute animals always welcome There is story of Buddha in which he was confronted by a very angry man. One of Buddha students asked how he remained in absolute calmness during the confrontation. The Buddha explained the mans anger was like a gift. If I refuse to accept that gift, the ownership of the anger, remains with the giver. Likewise with your friend, if they refused to desire retribution for the aggression they experienced, there is no karma that can be transferred. Your friend will be reborn into a higher realm earned from the kindness, gentleness and immense love in which that soul blessed upon this realm.

In the timeless void our being already exists in a state of perfection. But to awaken that perfection we need to experience enlightenment though our sensations. Thus karma is not retribution, but a method to awaken. Experiencing all that is needed to be experienced to complete that process. In Christian quarters there is lovely saying by Meister Eckhart - "When the Soul wants to experience something she throws out an image in front of her and then steps into it.". Thus the soul is not ruled by karma. Our soul creates karma as a path to that awakening.

Its a shame not more people have experience the divine love that you have experienced. But in time we will all one day experience that divine love. Yes I agree that Buddha's words have likely been tainted by time and that we need to trust the intuition of our inner guidance.

Freewill is not physical freedom. We are all in cages here. Death and ascension are the only exits.
(Personally, I haven't met anyone who ascended, but I believe it to be possible; and the reason we are here.)

As to freewill, well, that's the test, isn't it? What are you going to do with the matter you exist in? It envelops you, and traps you in this third dimensional reality. You forget all that you were. You start over, because there are no memories in your brain when you are born. The brain cannot know what it has not lived through or thought. We enter with nothing.

And the trials begin.

a reply to: Seer13

Karma are my actions and is my path through life. For me, it's a self-contained phenomenal narrative told by the aggregate of my life's work. I'll go the anatman route with the 'skandhas'. No inherited role in life, but a choose your own adventure.

And I have chose some incredibly stupid pages that I have paid, and will pay dearly for. Still, I was presented a range of options and made some decisions that increased my suffering. Not really a moral judgement system, perse.

But as they say, That's Karma.

originally posted by: Seer13

originally posted by: SprocketUK
a reply to: Seer13
Congrats on a strong start!

My reading on Karma is it simply applies to your life...If you are untrustworthy and nasty, in time those sort of people will be the only ones who will hang out with you.

As for free will, everything is decided, every thought, every action is the latest in a sequence that began with the big bang.

Hi and thank you. My challenge now is to keep up with the responses.

Hmm so I'm thinking about Stockholm Syndrome how there are those that will stay with the nasty types. I like to think eventually that spell/control would lose power and set them free.

Relate to your view on free will.

Thank you for taking an interest and participating in this topic.

Free will is a function of our thought processes, right? So they are related to the construction of our brains, the neurons and connections between them that are both inherited and created through experiences.
the inherited bit goes all the way back to the first slimy little fish that crawled out of a primordial swamp, it goes back even before that to when the atoms that made everything were created in stars and supernovae.

No matter what you might imagine you are going to do, its already pre programmed into your brain so it is preordained and you have no ability to act beyond it.

a reply to: SprocketUK

If a wave could think....it would imagine that it was a wave.

When the wave 'died' it would realise......I was never a wave.....I have always been the ocean .....waving.

originally posted by: Seer13
Hi lovely Earth Fam. I'm an ATS newbie and here's my first post (prob. to be added to my dossier, gasp! 😉)

Here it is:

There are those that would have me believe that there are such things as karma and free will.

Now, the problem presents itself in that very sentence: There are those that would have me believe ..

However, if I look at karma, it has the very makings of an Earth fiction using human behavioural psychology (Pavlov's dog anyone?). This Earth life is saturated with reward and punishment systems used to control behavour. In that 'light', karma looks to be man-made not divine.

'If' we are in fact portions of the One (God/Source etc.) why would the One/we need to punish and reward itself/ourselves? That seems very distorted. Much like the distortion that encrouches every aspect of Earth life. Again, not seeming very divine.

The One (us in full form) is said to be all-knowing, not lacking, not separate. Therefore, it should not need lessons, rewards or punishments--

Free will. I often hear and read that I/we have free will. Yet, every day I can point to multiple instances where that is incorrect. 2+2 does 'not' equal 5!

The only way I can make any sense of 'these views' is by the following.

Being all-knowing and perfect may get boring. So, as souls we choose to have a wide range of experiences. In choosing and planning them we use unlimited free will. But, once on Earth we forget so we can experience it as a reality. However, as it is pre-planned -chosen -determined, it does not allow for much free will.

Back to karma. So, if karma is an Earth fiction (to keep many inline having that type of experience) that would mean there is no good, bad, right and wrong. Only experiences that we chose pre-incarnating using free will. No punishments or rewards required/necessary.

Those that chose the experience of 'Architects' are to ensure the plans stay intact. Therefore, they have some of the blueprints.

What say ye fellow deep thinkers? Do you believe in the karma and free will theories we are 'told'? If not, what holes do you see in the stories and what are your views?

Welcome & Free Will is a myth or parlour trick at best .
It’s been measured & our electric signals to do something precede our brain activation to accomplish said will of the blocked universe.
Interesting stuff .
Luck or curses outweigh free will.

a reply to: psychotrail

By up to 11 seconds too.

But at least I can convince myself my thoughts were as I thought I thought them.

Doesn't matter if I was always going to post this response.

a reply to: SprocketUK

No matter what you might imagine you are going to do, its already pre programmed into your brain so it is preordained and you have no ability to act beyond it.

It's been a while since I've read Robert Wright's The Moral Animal: Why We Are the Way We Are: The New Science of Evolutionary Psychology, I was sort of disappointed in what he was writing. Like all of our actions are preordained by the evolution of our ancestors.

But if no behavior is new, as in adaptive to new circumstances, then where exactly does evolution happen? No free will = no evolution, in my thinking.

A completely deterministic view just doesn't quite seem right to me. Maybe for physics and chemistry: If this does that to those then z is the result. I don't think choosing to eat eggs or cereal for breakfast works quite like that.

So I read ahead to the study that Degradation33 linked to about the Neural Science part.

Freedom, however, can be enacted by both the unconscious and conscious self—and there are neuroscientists who claim that being controlled by our own unconscious brain is hardly an affront to free will. Studies showing that neuroscientists can predict our actions long before we’re aware of them don’t necessarily negate the concept of free will, but they certainly complicate our conception of our own minds.

That was the conclusion.

Did I choose to think of Wright's book? Somewhere in my subconscious memories was how I felt about Wright's book, some sort of feedback amongst different parts of the brain, connecting themes of thought and well ... there it is.

I do believe that I made the conscious choice to respond to your post rather than Degradation33's. It was a struggle. But I decided to respond to yours because I am uncomfortable with Determinism. It just doesn't seem morally satisfying.

originally posted by: Degradation33
a reply to: psychotrail

By up to 11 seconds too.

But at least I can convince myself my thoughts were as I thought I thought them.

Doesn't matter if I was always going to post this response.

From your source:

Lead author Joel Pearson, cognitive neuroscience professor at the University of South Wales in Australia, said that the study suggests traces of thoughts exist unconsciously before they become conscious. “We believe that when we are faced with the choice between two or more options of what to think about, non-conscious traces of the thoughts are there already, a bit like unconscious hallucinations,” he said in a statement. “As the decision of what to think about is made, executive areas of the brain choose the thought-trace which is stronger. In, other words, if any pre-existing brain activity matches one of your choices, then your brain will be more likely to pick that option as it gets boosted by the pre-existing brain activity.”

They speak of the brain choosing. Our brain, our unconscious and conscious is us, our memories, our beliefs, our unresolved issues pushed back into a safe place...all that makes the thought-trace choose the stronger (indoctrinated?) option.

Is that free will when the brain chooses from an indoctrinated place or is that place one of our choosing, so therefore it could be looked upon as a free will choice?

a reply to: Seer13

Hi there, welcome to ATS.

This topic has been discussed and many things written here, on ATS, and of course, by those with real knowledge. It's always nice to revisit this topic as we prepare to enter a new age.

The study and understanding of karma is only useful if you, as a mind/body entity, wonder if there is more to life, more to understanding Self, more to this planet, indeed, more to everything AND you want to know how to improve your life with this bounty of knowledge. Otherwise, the wheel of samscaras keeps on turning, same crap different day.

Bhagavata Gita, Song of God, is useful as are many, many other Vedic texts.

a reply to: Degradation33

Please forgive me but the path through life is the dharma.

a reply to: GopiGrl

Words can be a hindrance to communication as well as a being a channel of communication. It depends on definitions, and if the definitions are common or different.

This is the Tao Te Ching, chapter 1

STENUDD, STEFAN (2008)
The Way that can be walked is not the eternal Way.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of Heaven and Earth.
The named is the mother of all things.
Therefore:
Free from desire you see the mystery.
Filled of desire you see the manifestations.
These two have the same origin but differ in name.
That is the secret, the secret of secrets, the gate to all mysteries.

I've been reading it for the last 3 or 4 years.
I am a Westerner with no real experience of Hindu or Buddhist thoughts or practices. I steal words from other cultures and try to use them properly.

For instance I use () to indicate the Tau (way) that cannot be named. I haven't started it yet, but I may start using the word Maya to stand for Mother of all things. And Dharma to mean the path I should walk and the path I do walk. The path I should walk is that which benefits all. That's pretty much impossible. The path I do walk, well, that's quite different, sort of crappy in comparison.

Do you have a suggestion about vocabularies I should use? I think I am more scared of using Maya for Mother of all than I am afraid of the way I use dharma.

a reply to: pthena

That is a beautiful, beautiful excerpt. My mom gave me the book decades ago, but Hinduism resonates with me. My friend, You are doing well on your path.

This is what comes to mind:
If I remember correctly, for me, being like water is best
Filled w desire, we create the world with our thoughts mixed with the thoughts of the other living entities on Earth
In Sanatana Dharma (Hinduism), maya is the illusion of this material world
The planet is referred to as Bhumi - personality, incarnate but
I have heard the planet is called Gaia

Dharma, is translated truly, to your duty...specific to you and your truth. It starts with the body you are born into, created from karmic reactions of the past lives. It can be understood with a good astrology reading, palmistry can help if necessary.

Keep up the good work.

a reply to: GopiGrl

being like water is best

And uncarved wood.

And action through inaction. That's hard.

I will look up Bhumi now. That is probably better than Maya. Maybe just say Mother of all.

a reply to: pthena

Another translation says
Naming is the origin of all particular things.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

I used the Stenudd translation because that's the book I have. He has had his translation peer reviewed so I trust him.

So I've decided that Maya is the wrong word to use for Phenomenal Universe. Because it is there and not an illusion.

In a sense, I have always been a heathen. My deities being Sky, Earth, Ocean, Sun, Moon; those that are there without needing names. Without them, I do not exist. Without them, I will not continue to exist. They are necessary deities.

The new gods are abstract: Justice, Peace, Mercy, Love, Harmony, War. These we name for the sake of civilization.

And I've always been in civilization. These abstract principles guide many social realities.

You go places, that's enough evidence for everything to be real.

a reply to: Untun

You don't go anywhere.....the scenery simply changes.

a reply to: pthena

It doesn't have to be satisfying and, as far as evolution goes, all you need are mutations and time.