Cobra Maneuver: The Truth.

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posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 11:22 AM
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^^
not really some russian gismos are way ahead of anything of their competitors..As i was saying in the ejection thread the K36 is miles ahead of martin baker




posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 11:39 AM
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i really dont know if the cobra is an combat maneuver -but is possible-, but i know that there are maneuvers based on the cobra concepts (high AoA) i dont rememer but one is called "the hook" -but im not sure-.

please dont compare the flanker cobra with the f15 bell, thats an maneuver (bell) that any 3th generation plane can do.

Also dont compare the su27 cobra with the f22 "cobra", because the flanker is an pure aerodynamic cobra, and the raptor is an mechanical "cobra" (thust vectorial), i really doubt that the racpor could sustain the high su27 AoA without TVC, due the relative low aspect delta wing and the lack of vortex aerodynamics (to avoid drag vortex in supercruiser), in the same way the flanker suck in supercruiser.



[edit on 24-3-2005 by grunt2]



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 12:39 PM
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Care to explain this :


"...At first we regarded this manoeuvre as a showpiece, but as we thought more and more about combat requirements, we started to improve and refine it."
--Eugeny Frolov, Sukhoi Chief Test Pilot.


Virtual Stealth
"Supermaneuverability should be looked at as a system of maneuvers for close aerial combat. Once the pilot receives a signal that his plane is being tracked by an enemy radar, the first thing he needs to do is to go vertical. While gaining altitude and losing speed the aircraft starts to disappear from the screens of radars that use the Doppler effect. 10 However, the opponent is no fool either and will counter by pitching his aircraft upward as well. By that time our plane is going vertical and its speed approaches zero. But all Doppler radars can recognize only a moving target. If the aircraft speed is zero or simply low enough to prevent the enemy radar from calculating the Doppler component, for the enemy our aircraft will disappear. He may still be able to track us visually, but he will not be able to launch a radar-guided missile (either active or semi-active), simply because the missile's seeker would not pick-up the target."

vayu-sena.tripod.com...



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 12:52 PM
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I want to stress on two things :

1) The Cobra has its applications in combat as well. Several manuver's have been derrived from it and are indespenseable in combat.

The same has been spoken about :

"...At first we regarded this manoeuvre as a showpiece, but as we thought more and more about combat requirements, we started to improve and refine it."
--Eugeny Frolov, Sukhoi Chief Test Pilot.


2) The Cobra and the Kulbit are the benchmarks of an aircraft's manuverablity. If it can do the manuver directly implies that it is more manuverable than some airplane that cannot do the manuver.

And manuverablity is the most critical aspect of an airplane during close range fighting.

Here's how a highly manuverable airplane that can do the cobra will outdo one that cannot.



Read this :



In-Close, Stay-Close, and Kill-Close strategy is a way defeat the new generation of all-aspect, high-off-boresight missiles such as the R-73, Python 4, MICA-IR, and AIM-9X.
Source


And the manuverability of an airplane(endorsed by its ability to do the cobra) is critical to execute this strategy.


And who says that the cobra cannot be done with an ordinance fit ?

Read this :


Many wrongly believe that the Su-27+ cannot perform all maneovres in combat load. To counter such talk designer Mikhail Simonov, at the 1994 Farnborough airshow, sanctioned a Su-30MK to perform the airshow routine with ordnance on all 12 pylons - a total of 7000 kg!! It did a complete fighter-like routine with this asymmetric load - including a tail slide!!.

Mikhail Simonov was stung by press criticism that this machine was appearing at airshows doing tailslides and Cobras without any underwing stores. So it was promptly fitted with a representative warload consisting of (from port wingtip) - AA-11, AA-11, AA-10, Kh-31P, 6 x OFAB-100-120 bombs on a MER fitted to the port lower intake, KAB-500KR on centreline pylon, Kh-29T on lower Stbd intake, Kh-59M, RVV-AE, AA-11, AA-11 and still did its full show routine! A similar performance was witnessed at an airshow where the Landing Gear could not retracted in a Su-37, but Yevgeny Frolov still went on do perform the show routine without any changes!

Link



And check this out :

The Su-30MKI has no AoA limitations: it can fly at even 180 degree AoA and still recover. This high super-agility allows rapid deployment of weapons in any direction as desired by the crew. The addition of another seat means that the pilot is free to concentrate on flying the aircraft while the second pilot can engage targets.

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[edit on 7-6-2005 by Stealth Spy]



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 12:59 PM
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Very Compelling. Would love to hear more on this.



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 01:14 PM
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And now coming to the F/A-22's ability to do a cobra.

Well i have not seen any clear cut evidence either pictorial or video that the F-22 can do a textbook cobra.

Here is the "textbook" definition of the cobra:

the airplane pitches up to 120 degrees angle of attack, and almost stops in mid air. The nose then falls back through to the horizontal, and the aircraft accelerates away in the original direction. There in no major gain or loss in height (unless there is an error of some sort on the entry and recovery).



Even if one were to carelessly assume that the F-22 would be able to do a cobra, its no real catch-up to the manuverablilty of operational Russian aircrafts. Heck the Su-27 could do a cobra waaaaaaaaaay back in the 1970's. And if the F-22 is able to catch up to it in the 2000's you can surely say its waaaaaaaaaay back in this department.

I would like to call the cobra as a 4th generation manuver and the Kulbit as a 5th generation manuver(just like the F-22 calls itself 5th generation)

The Sukhoi series has set yet another enviable benchmark with the Kulbit, a manuvering feat that is only dreamt in envy by prodution american airplanes, (that includes the F-22)

Take a look at the cobra :



and now the Kulbit :


now do you see the difference ??



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 01:19 PM
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The Cobra is a benchmark of an airplane's mauverablity and with manuverability it can do wonders. Check this out :



The Russian-built Sukhoi Su-30MK, the high-performance fighter being exported to India(much more advanced version) and China, consistently beat the F-15C in classified simulations, say U.S. Air Force and aerospace industry officials.

In certain circumstances, the Su-30 can use its maneuverability, enhanced by thrust-vectoring nozzles, and speed to fool the F-15's radar, fire two missiles and escape before the U.S. fighter can adequately respond. This is according to Air Force officials who have seen the results of extensive studies of multi-aircraft engagements conducted in a complex of 360-deg. simulation domes at Boeing's St. Louis facilities.

"The Su-30 tactic and the success of its escape maneuver permit the second, close-in shot, in case the BVR [beyond-visual-range] shot missed," an Air Force official said. Air Force analysts believe U.S. electronic warfare techniques are adequate to spoof the missile's radar. "That [second shot] is what causes concern to the F-15 community," he said. "Now, the Su-30 pilot is assured two shots plus an effective escape, which greatly increases the total engagement [kill percentage]."

THE SCENARIO in which the Su-30 "always" beats the F-15 involves the Sukhoi taking a shot with a BVR missile (like the AA-12 Adder) and then "turning into the clutter notch of the F-15's radar," the Air Force official said. Getting into the clutter notch where the Doppler radar is ineffective involves making a descending, right-angle turn to drop below the approaching F-15 while reducing the Su-30's relative forward speed close to zero. This is a 20-year-old air combat tactic, but the Russian fighter's maneuverability, ability to dump speed quickly and then rapidly regain acceleration allow it to execute the tactic with great effectiveness, observers said.

If the maneuver is flown correctly, the Su-30 is invisible to the F-15's Doppler radar--which depends on movement of its targets--until the U.S. fighter gets to within range of the AA-11 Archer infrared missile. The AA-11 has a high-off-boresight capability and is used in combination with a helmet-mounted sight and a modern high-speed processor that rapidly spits out the target solution.

Positioned below the F-15, the Su-30 then uses its passive infrared sensor to frame the U.S. fighter against the sky with no background clutter. The Russian fighter then takes its second shot, this time with the IR missile, and accelerates out of danger.

"It works in the simulator every time," the Air Force official said. However, he did point out that U.S. pilots are flying both aircraft in the tests. Few countries maintain a pilot corps with the air-to-air combat skills needed to fly these scenarios, said an aerospace industry official involved in stealth fighter programs.

Link




posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 01:30 PM
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The Hook, a derrivative of the cobra is something that makes the difference between winning and losing in a dogfight :




posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 01:32 PM
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posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 01:47 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof



How do you know that that pic is not doctored.

I could make a Mirage do a cobra too.



I'll take this pic and then flip it up using a graphics software like Photoshop or Corel Draw and make it look like a cobra.


You can only tell surely weather a plane can do a cobra after watching a video of it. And after taking a look at the unclear and smoky "Marvel of engineering" video several i found there is nothing in it to suggest that the F-22 did a cobra. Infact the video is not continous as well.

Now if the F-22 could really do a textbook cobra as is defined, would'nt the USAF do over the moon and display it over and over again to the world's air magazines and media ??



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 01:52 PM
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So, the cobra maneuver is pretty, but what purpose does it serve in a dogfight or in evading a missile?



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 02:08 PM
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Isint evading a missile or being able to get behind your enemy in a dogfight good ??

Do you disagree on this



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 02:25 PM
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Originally posted by Stealth Spy
img293.echo.cx...

If I were the guy at the bottom, I would've launched a missile at the Su when he's at around 800 (200 for me). Why not? I got almost a perfect aspect on him, he just exposed his burners for my IR missiles to home in on. He has to take time to make his plane stall then come down. With all that time, I could've easily locked on and hit him. The Su pilot just gave himself away by pitching AWAY from his opponent, that's something you don't want to do often in real dogfights. It seems like the guy on the bottom had no idea what he was doing, he just pulled up then pitched down. What kind of dogfighting is that?
If he happened to be a dummy target drone I'd forgive him


Originally posted by Stealth Spy
The Cobra is a benchmark of an airplane's mauverablity and with manuverability it can do wonders. Check this out :
Link

This article gives me the impression that they expect the F-15 pilot to maintain high altitude and keep heading towards the Su after an R-77 has just been shot at him. Nice tactics dude

And what if the F-15 got one of those AESA radars? What if it also went to low level flight?

Another thing. I think sustainable AoA is more important than temporary high AoA. The Su series mostly have very good temporary high AoA manoeuvres, but unless the pilot is a real genius and gets his 12 lined up with the 6 of his opponent right after he gets out of his showy manoeuvre, he must recover, and with that time, an aircraft with superior sustainable AoA could easily gain the upper hand. IIRC the F-22 could sustain 60 degress AoA. What about the Su-30?

[edit on 7-6-2005 by Taishyou]



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 02:58 PM
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I have little to no doubt that an F-22 could do the "Cobra" described for the Su-27 quite easily, since Ive seen it fly. The plane took off then pitched up close to 60 degree angle , turned to 90 degrees and accelerated for about 3,000ft (exagerate I did not) and looked like it could easily have gone further. the plane is a beast, the best fighter in the world.



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 03:13 PM
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Please, people. Enough of this.

The Cobra and all other maneuvers develped by the fine engineers and pilots of the Suhkoi design bureau have little or no practical use in modern air combat.

Fancy charts, internet data, and promotional videos from Russian mean crapola.

I have spoken with actual USAF pilots who fly F-15C aircraft about this tpoic extensively. One of these men is my uncle, a Colonel who flew for TAC for 20 years, and is a qualified USAF flight instructor.

These maneuvers, while impressive, would never be used in modern air-to-air combat except in the more dire, extreme, and last-ditch circumstances, as every pilot knows that speed and altitude is what keeps you alive. If you perform these maneuvers, you lose speed, you lose altitude, and you bleed off precious energy with takes time and fuel to regain.

Air combat is never one-on-one; it hasn't been since the days of WWI. If you bleed off all your energy and slow to 200kts, your foe's wingman will eat you for lunch, while your target is speeding away from you at 3 times your current speed. USAF doctrine has show through decades of actual air-to-air jet combat experience that close-in fights, with mostly evenly matched aircraft, usually boils down to the experience level and determination of the individual pilot, the support (wingman, AWACS, EW) from other friendly units, and even the physical conditioning of the pilots themselves. Fancy maneuvers do not a dogfight win. Excellent pilots in good planes win dogfights.



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 12:28 AM
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i think i posted this before


The fighter pilot is able to do whatever he wishes with the F-22, without fear of loss of control, loss of thrust or aircraft structural overstress. Specifically, this has resulted in an unlimited angle of attack (AOA) capability for the aircraft's basic combat configuration (for example, all internal carriage of weapons and no external stores). There are no AOA limiters, and, most importantly, no restrictions on flightpath. The pilot can run the airplane out of speed and maneuver in the post stall regime with integrated flight controls and thrust vectoring. The F-22 responds smoothly to the pilot and can change flight condition at his command.

www.globalsecurity.org...

all you need is a 120 degree AOA and the f-22 has a unlimited AOA



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 12:33 AM
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I have no doubt that the Cobra is fun to pull off, but, it seems to open up an awful lot of belly area for a shot of Vulcan cannon, or like-minded weapon fire.

[edit on 6/15/05 by liquidvudo]



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 05:02 AM
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Yevgeniy Chizhikov
y.chizhikov@popmail.csuohio.edu wrote: >

The only who claim that Cobra manuver is designed for combat is >Westerners and Nato pilot. Russians never claim that. Cobra is manuver >that used in pilot training in order to learn how control aircraft, and >never in combat. Still, I don't see F-15 doing Cobra rutinly. Something >wrong with this picture. Su-27 doing it with no problem any time. I still see the record of the F-15 in amassing air-to-air victories for the last twenty years flown by a variety of nations. Nope, no Cobras there. The only reference to the Cobra you hear from Westerners and NATO pilots is the profound hope that the defender in their next battle will graciously do a Cobra in front of them---Ahhh, the mere thought of that huge flat-plate radar return with no angular velocity sitting in the midst of that swirling heat signature brings a quickened pulse to this ol' fighter pilot.

Edit: Link added to the quote above: Cobra maneuver (Ed Rasimus)

[edit on 15-6-2005 by Seekerof]



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 05:29 AM
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Stealth Spy believes that the Cobra and Kulbit can actually be used in combat effectively. I agree with ^^^, the Cobra was never meant for combat, it is used to train pilots on controlling the aircraft, and for show reasons in airshows of course.



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 07:23 AM
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We haven't seen any dogfights since the age of the dinosaurs, the future of engagements in the air will be beyond visual rage you can perform you pretty little cobra while the other pilot is shooting at you from 50 miles away.





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