Russkie: I know a story (told by skdiver "buddies") of somebody who went to Russia to pick up a chopper that was being sold. The engine accidentally went on while they were testing, no tail rotor, the thing upped flipped over, hurling the guy out. He had a lit cigarette in his mouth the whole time, and the rescue busybodies found him lying on his back, contemplating the sky - still with the cigarette in his mouth.

I am a novice at this but does BVR stand for Beyond visable range? Makes sense to me.
Apolagies for my ignorance

Kalistenics....your correct.

Silk...yes, on the picture...but I used the picture to emphasize the "splash one" comment...not the "cobra maneover.

Why has no one commented on the F-22's 'alleged' "unlimited" AoA? This makes the cobra meaningless? Tell me....?


regards
seekerof

F-22: the various sims I've played with make the aircraft behave in a very odd fashion. It can stand on its tail (but not very well) and you have an alpha indicator on your HUD. I've never seen it go above about 14 degrees but then I never got into many dogfights and high-G maneuvers. The most I do is a 45-degree zig-zag to dodge the odd Atoll which works about 80% of the time, 95% if you do it properly. The Su-35s seem to shrug off an AMRAAM about 50% of the time and laugh at AIM-9s. Mind you, the game (Novalogic's F-22 Lightning III) may be weighted to make it more fun.

very interesting and informative thread. thanks for the info guys.

You did bring up a lot of good points, seekerof. But I think my cobra manuever mention was misunderstood.

I mainly brought that point up to show that Russian fighters are just that agile. Like somebody said, those fighters can almost turn on their tails. Think an F-15C can do that?

It's good to hear there was no Russian bashing involved in your comments. I'll leave it at that.

But on a slightly different note, the Russian Air Force would lose to the U.S. Air Force. Not because they have inferior forces, but because technically, there is not Russian Air Force. It's so disorganized it's like a mercenary force.

I think that these types of manuvers are less important in the plane vs. plane scenario then the plane vs. missile scenario.
If the super-manuverable Russian planes get enough manuverability to lose long-range missiles on a regular basis(not there yet I don't think but it might) then all of a sudden the game changes dramatically. I know it seems unlikly given the size difference but the missiles also have to contend with higher speeds and smaller control surfaces. Using chaff, ECM or whatever else is available these manuvers may become a make or break saving grace vs. the heavier long-range missiles. The smaller short/medium range missiles would require more effort to outmanuver though.

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
You did bring up a lot of good points, seekerof. But I think my cobra manuever mention was misunderstood.

I mainly brought that point up to show that Russian fighters are just that agile. Like somebody said, those fighters can almost turn on their tails. Think an F-15C can do that?

It's good to hear there was no Russian bashing involved in your comments. I'll leave it at that.

But on a slightly different note, the Russian Air Force would lose to the U.S. Air Force. Not because they have inferior forces, but because technically, there is not Russian Air Force. It's so disorganized it's like a mercenary force.

Well said.

I have my doubts as to whether "supermaneuverability" is all that useful in modern combat. The '91 gulf war showed that against an unprepared foe, BVR missiles are unstoppable.

The combination of AWACS and long range missile can be very effective, yet there's always the risk of a swarm of {low altitude|stealth|justplainfocusedanddeadly} fighters busting through the fighter screen, taking down the AWACS and then proceeding to own the "superior" fighters in a dirty knife fight. To do this, one must (1) be willing to take losses (2) fight unconventionally.

MiGs in Vietnam had a tactic of "bushwhacking" Thuds by hiding low under the tropical cloudcover and popping up unexpectedly with guns and IR missiles at close range.. Escorting F-4 Phantoms had neither the range nor the lookdown/shootdown to combat the bushwhackers.

I really like the F-22 and have a great deal of respect and admiration for stealth and BVR missiles, however, every war in history has shown that unconventional tactics can give you an edge.

The longer Russia keeps pushing "supermaneiverability", the more conventional it will become. In conflicts where the USA/NATO/CIS is not involved, it's going to be a plain old slugfest between (mostly) equaly equpped 3rd world combatants. As things stand right now, India would kick Pakinstan's butt in a straight nuclear/conventional battle. Pakistan needs to either (1) get a more formidiable army or (2) get better WMD's. A handful of nukes just doesn't cut it these days.

the cobra maneuver is a strategic one and it can be used in combat like this:

squadron of jets flies very fast to battlezone

aircraft that perfoms the cobra directs the infra-red beam on the target(s) for i.r.equiped guided bombs to be dropped from other normal flying jets.
because of the exact and stable pinpointed i.r. beam there is a very high percentage the bombs will hit bull's eye.

after the attack all aircraft can leave full speed the battlefield.

as with all fighterjets burning fuel like hell any such operation comes into the normal window of 4 -7 minutes action on the battlefield.
plus flying to and from the target can include aerial refueling(s) ofcourse.

[Edited on 19-5-2004 by NOGODSINTHEUNIVERSE]

How may within the Russian Air Force, who only get about 14-40+/- hours of training annually, can perform this maneuver successfully?



seekerof

[Edited on 19-5-2004 by Seekerof]

ZHUKOFSY is a special testcenter but not included in the russian air force !

Originally posted by Amet Khan
As things stand right now, India would kick Pakinstan's butt in a straight nuclear/conventional battle. Pakistan needs to either (1) get a more formidiable army or (2) get better WMD's. A handful of nukes just doesn't cut it these days.

True, Pakistan's defences are peanuts.Those guys got nothing.On the other hand India are very very well armed.Pakistan's confilct with India is meaningless and self defeating.They should give up kashmir and shut up.

i really do not see any pakistan pilot making a cobra !!

True.The engine of their F-16 would be out if they even think of attempting one. Pakistan is a joke.