comparison of U.S. V. europe subs

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
Rogue,

The sensors and weapons fits are more capable than those on the Virginia for the task they are for.

I will give you the fact that they will not carry Tomahawks but that is not part of their tasking.

On a sub v sub engagement they will outmatch the Virginias even in a blue water scenario. The only thing the SSNs have on them is range in a long term pursuit but in that case it is a win for the AIP boat.

Once again you make these claims but have absolutely nothing to back you up. At least post a link to these so called superior sensors.

As for your credibilty it gets worse everyday.

I think people here will feel the same way.

Originally posted by deltaboy
with the Virginia class subs design for both deep and coastal operations the advantage for the diesel and electric subs would be negligible.

she is still a large nuclear boat (7,300 tonnes vs 1,400 for the U212) so she is never going to be as good in coastal waters as the DE subs

Rogue,

If you feel my comparison of the sensors is failed then prove it.

As to my credibility, thanks for making my point for me

Cheers

BHR

most western nations have comparable sensors to each other. (if anyone is ahead it is the US with the UK snapping at their heels). Where the US wins out is in the full systems integration side of the sub.

Paper,

Can you expand on this?

Cheers

BHR

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
I will give you the fact that they will not carry Tomahawks but that is not part of their tasking.

BHR,
Who are you trying to say will not be carrying tomahawks?

Cool,

As far as I am aware the AIP boats will not be Tomahawk capable.

Cheers

BHR

the integration of sensors and weapons command and control facility's are better on the US subs than on others

Paper,

That was some expansion.

I am surprised you managed it so quickly.

Cheers

BHR

is not the easiest thing to describe, information flows around the ship better in US boats, leading to increased effectiveness

Paper,

I know what you are meaning.

What I was asking for was a quantative or qualitative analysis of the varying systems.

Cheers

BHR

i have one on paper somewhere (conference proceedings) but is not easily accessable on the web, will try to dig it out.

Another paper some might like is:

A Foam Sandwich Submarine Hull DERA 'Novel Hull Model No. 1'
Author: Jeremy R Smith, Derek Graham and David J Creswell, DERA
Year: 1999
Published in: Warship 99

Abstract: This paper describes structural analysis and experimental tests carried out on a novel submarine scale model comprising an externally ring-framed steel shell clad with syntactic foam and GRP outer skin. This concept emerged as a preferred option in the DERA Corporate Research Programme 'Novel Structures with Stealth features' funded by MOD. In addition to structural appraisal, the idea is assessed in terms of potential improvement in overall operational performance.


[edit on 7-4-2005 by paperplane_uk]

Firstly the RN is not going to fight a straight battle...most likely get the american sub to give chase and bring it to the costal subs..

You think were that stupid? There is no need for us to chase you to costal waters as long as you can't operate in blue water and sink ships enjoy your costal waters.

Westy your thinking of a large scale submarine on submarine conflict...that doesnt happen... Imagine dozens of subs running around in the atlantic unable to tell friend from foe...well you can if you really listen but by that time the other guy is listening and thinking the same thing "is this guy a bad guy?"

Remember WWII, I think it happened. Also in WWII we seemed to know which subs were which and that was 65 years ago the tech back then was crap compared to now.

[edit on 7-4-2005 by WestPoint23]

Originally posted by WestPoint23
You think were that stupid? There is no need for us to chace you to costal waters as long as you can operate in blue water and sink ships enjoy your costal waters.

Yes actually....its not a question of stupidity but a question of wether or not a US sub commander is willing to allow a UK sub to play around in his front garden.
Oh and BTW sinking civilains is illegal and called piracy...are you calling the US navy pirates?

Remember WWII, I think it happened. Also in WWII we seemed to know which subs were which and that was 65 years ago the tech back then was crap compared to now.

65 years ago they used mine hunteres to hunt them down.... you do relise out of 663 ships lost in combat only 24 were destroyed by enemy subs....right?
Submarine warfare is difficult because the quiter you make your ships the harder it is to tell who's friend from foe...

do you guys have any idea how often American Nuclear submarines have entered coastal waters and harbors to gather intelligence information????
You guys need to rethink your assumptions about submarine capabilitys.
I know of a instance where an American nuclear submarine near a foreign harbor surfaced and punched a hole in the bottom of a freighter. Mind you the submarine was badly damaged in the sail area and many of the telescoping antennas were damaged heavily as were the fairwater planes. This boat limped home for repairs. This information was not released to the public for three years after the incident.
I will admit ..this takes alot of brass from the skippers and crews. But submarine skippers are similar to fighter pilots when cut loose to do what they do best.
American Submarines and skippers have given the Russians fits with their brass gonads and capabilities for years in the cold war. This is readily admitted by the Russian leadership. Orangetom

The same can be said about british subs....we did the same thing at the same time..hell we trained some of your people to do it....

totally agree Wasp..
Alot of our submarines operated out of Britian clearly indicating that both nations ..to use a American wrestling term..."tag teamed" the Soviets. Giving them fits ...Bravo..well said..Wasp.
Furthermore the British submarine leadership schools are legend in the submarine community. Many American skippers have been there to train with the Brits just like your SAS schools. They wrote the books on many of these skills. Thanks Orangetom

Yes actually....its not a question of stupidity but a question of wether or not a US sub commander is willing to allow a UK sub to play around in his front garden

.

He would not put his Sub in danger because of primitive instincts. Winning the war and accomplishing your objectives trumps territorial pride IMO.

Oh and BTW sinking civilains is illegal and called piracy...are you calling the US navy pirates?

I’m talking about Navy ships, unless you plan to use your subs for nothing other than trying to cause damage to U.S. subs.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
He would not put his Sub in danger because of primitive instincts. Winning the war and accomplishing your objectives trumps territorial pride IMO.
[/qoute]
He would because he is designated to guard that area...if he lets an enemy sub run wild that sub can sink lots of friendly ships..

I’m talking about Navy ships, unless you plan to use your subs for nothing other than trying to cause damage to U.S. subs.

We are talking sub on sub tactics here...if you want to include forign forces then your forces have a big problem..

Dear all,

There is a reason why US and UK sub forces never went in for the sort of Wolf Pack tactics preferred by the Kriegsmarine in WW2 and the Soviets during the Cold War and that is it ties the hands of individual commanders.

Both the us and the Americans train our sub commanders to be independent thinkers and then we give them the best boats in the world.

During the Cold War the submariners on both sides played the game for real everyday. More so than any other area of our armed forces.

What this means for our hypothetical conflict between US and European subs is that it will be one on one engagements.

Therefore the subs that have the best systems AND system operators (ie officers and men) will win more often.

Lets not think that the US will have free roaming rights in the deep ocean and the European subs will only operate where they can still see land. With the ability to cross the oceans submerged the AIP boats will be just as blue water as the SSNs.

Cheers

BHR