comparison of U.S. V. europe subs

Originally posted by Wodan

the sub is on the sea already

thats not just on land-based test bed!

3 months arent possible for a U212, maybe the next version...

I know, the U212 AIP system only last about 3 weeks but THE NEW AIP SYSTEMS that are currently in prototype last much longer, they will be seen in the next few years.

It is not only the Germans who have working AIP systems, the french are selling them to pakistan. The swedes have them too.

[edit on 6-4-2005 by paperplane_uk]

Originally posted by paperplane_uk

Originally posted by Wodan

the sub is on the sea already

thats not just on land-based test bed!

3 months arent possible for a U212, maybe the next version...

I know, the U212 AIP system only last about 3 weeks but THE NEW AIP SYSTEMS that are currently in prototype last much longer, they will be seen in the next few years.

It is not only the Germans who have working AIP systems, the french are selling them to pakistan. The swedes have them too.

[edit on 6-4-2005 by paperplane_uk]

what are the names, do you have any link, about hydrogenium cell driven swedish and french subs?

www.chinfo.navy.mil...

should be some information in there. Other information is available but not on the web. You could also try the DCN website

Gotland class is the sweedish one with AIP installed.

Originally posted by Wodan
maximum speed is 20 knots, under water for three weeks thats 18668.16 kilometers, not that bad for a non-nuclear sub, I think

Just because the max speed is 20knots, doesn't mean U 212 can sustain it for 3 weeks. I have read that the system is able to achieve 8 knots for 14 days submerged. So 4000km underwater range is more likely.

[edit on 6-4-2005 by longbow]

I also think that radioisotope thermoelectric generators are better option than AIP. They work by converting heat form alpha radiation to electricity. Voyager and other space probes are powered by them. They can last for 100 years and there is no chain reaction so no need for cooling and only light shielding is necessary (alpha particles can be stoped by paper). Also the maintaince would be not big problem. They are not powerfull enough to propel large subs but for smaller size subs like U212 or Kilo it would be good option.

with the Virginia class subs design for both deep and coastal operations the advantage for the diesel and electric subs would be negligible.

So what we have is the worlds largest standoff because the other side knows it cant win...

Originally posted by deltaboy
with the Virginia class subs design for both deep and coastal operations the advantage for the diesel and electric subs would be negligible.

I think too that Virginia is designed also to deal with diesels (no pumps at low speed, better sensors, UUVs), the problem is not capability, but cost. For 1 Virginia you can have 4 AIP subs.

Virginias are 2 Bil each right? And AIP subs are around 300mil so that makes 6.7 AIP subs for each Virginias. Very outnumbered and AIP subs are very quiet, affordable and armed with deadly weaponry.

But the Virginia nuclear subs and other nuclear subs offer you more capability than the AIP and they are better in quality. I think a navy having only AIP subs is never going to be able to win the sub war. You might be good in costal waters but you cant always stay there, if you want to accomplish something your going to have to come out into deeper waters where your dead meat.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
But the Virginia nuclear subs and other nuclear subs offer you more capability than the AIP and they are better in quality. I think a navy having only AIP subs is never going to be able to win the sub war. You might be good in costal waters but you cant always stay there, if you want to accomplish something your going to have to come out into deeper waters where your dead meat.

Quality still doesnt make up for numbers..
the Royal navy could fight the blue water war...the diesels would ensure coastline safety..
I mean look at the number diffrence you could get if they started building..

Quality does make up for numbers. What're you, going to send in a bunch of subs together in one pack that would try to fire on one more maneuverable, faster sub. They'd end up maneuvering into each other in the process, or firing into each other in the process.

Quality still doesnt make up for numbers..
the Royal navy could fight the blue water war...the diesels would ensure coastline safety..
I mean look at the number diffrence you could get if they started building..

The RN does not have the number of nuclear subs to engage the U.S. their subs would be outnumbered. Then your AIP subs can stay near your coast well just launch RUR-5 ASROC RUM-139 Vertical Launch ASROC (VLA) into the costal waters also attack with our Anti-Submarine Aircrafts. and if your AIP subs stay there they will be destroyed if they try to go into deeper water out nuclear subs are waiting for them. You can build as many as you want if all they can do is protect the coastline they aren't going to be destroying enemy subs. Unless Europe has more nuclear subs they wont win the sub war.

This is all hypothetical of course, I’m just stating how it might play out. Of course anything can happen but this to me is the most logical thing that would happen.

One of the prime purposes of submarines ..not mentioned by the postings on this board..is intelligence gathering. This is something done regularly by boats on patrol..just simple gathering of information of all types. Any submarine ...nuclear or non nuclear is useful for this type of work.
The feature that makes a non nuclear submarine vulnurable is its necessity to snort..or go topside for running the diesels and ventilating the boat. Some of this is being corrected by the newer developments in Air Independent Propulsion systems but endurance is limited. The main feature of the Air Independent Propulsion systems is quietness. Any submarine that has to come to the surface to snort is vulnurable..nuclear or non nuclear.
Submarines are much more versitle today ..due to new inovations in propulsion sensors and weaponry and crew training due to these inovations. This applies to nuclear as well as non nuclear submarines.
It is known that a well trained crew in a non nuclear submarine...with modern weaponry and sensors is a very dangerous thing underway.
Costs as posted by someone else on these boards is the m ain thing holding back construction among many nations...submarine technology ..even non nuclear ..is expensive. Many of the less affluent nations find even the cost of building and maintaining a modern non nuclear submarine...prohibitive though they cannot readily argue with their usefulness....that is..those in the know.
A submarine...in a battlefield is enough to pucker the backside of the toughest admiral. Submarines are very deadly in todays enviornment if ever turned loose..especially on commercial commerce. Modern weapons and sensors...make the surface shipping of all types more vulnurable than most people even have a clue. This includes surface Navys. Most surface sailors havent a clue h ow vulnurable they are to unrestricted submarine warefare...and this includes modern aircraft carriers..running in a fleet. This is easy to figure out ..because when the fleet comes back ..you seldome have the news and cameras on the submarine piers..they are all over with the destroyers and carriers. You show your kings queens and jacks..never your aces.
These features gaurantee the continuation of submarine construction ...though costs are definitely a important factor. Just some food for your continuation. Orangetom

Originally posted by Broadsword20068
Quality does make up for numbers. What're you, going to send in a bunch of subs together in one pack that would try to fire on one more maneuverable, faster sub. They'd end up maneuvering into each other in the process, or firing into each other in the process.

Lets see...large pack...big area....against one lone sub...lone sub will be screwed..

The RN does not have the number of nuclear subs to engage the U.S. their subs would be outnumbered. Then your AIP subs can stay near your coast well just launch RUR-5 ASROC RUM-139 Vertical Launch ASROC (VLA) into the costal waters also attack with our Anti-Submarine Aircrafts. and if your AIP subs stay there they will be destroyed if they try to go into deeper water out nuclear subs are waiting for them. You can build as many as you want if all they can do is protect the coastline they aren't going to be destroying enemy subs. Unless Europe has more nuclear subs they wont win the sub war.

Firstly the RN is not going to fight a straight battle...most likely get the american sub to give chase and bring it to the costal subs..
Also if your bringing aircraft into this and surface fleets then that just adds more to my case....are we going to involve surface fleets and aircraft?

This is all hypothetical of course, I’m just stating how it might play out. Of course anything can happen but this to me is the most logical thing that would happen.

Westy your thinking of a large scale submarine on submarine conflict...that doesnt happen...
Imagine dozens of subs running around in the atlantic unable to tell friend from foe...well you can if you really listen but by that time the other guy is listening and thinking the same thing "is this guy a bad guy?"


[edit on 26/02/2005 by devilwasp]

Dear all,

Those extolling the virtues of the Virginia class may care to read the latest press releases regarding this programme.

Costs have spiralled and there is serious talk of cutting the number bought by at least 50%.

Cheers

BHR

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
Dear all,

Those extolling the virtues of the Virginia class may care to read the latest press releases regarding this programme.

Costs have spiralled and there is serious talk of cutting the number bought by at least 50%.

And what point are you trying to make exactly ? This doesn't make them any less capable - duh

PS. Do you ever post any links at all ?

Rogue,

What it means is that you will end up with fewer SSNs and as to their capabilties they are either equal to or less than those of the forthcoming AIP boats.

Cheers

BHR

p.s. you want links go find them yourself, I am not here to nursemaid you.

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
Rogue,

What it means is that you will end up with fewer SSNs and as to their capabilties they are either equal to or less than those of the forthcoming AIP boats.

lol, I fail to see how AIP boats can be anywhere near as capable as an SSN. What exactly makes them on par with the latest SSN ? The only possible advantage they might have is being a bit quieter, but that may not even be the case.

p.s. you want links go find them yourself, I am not here to nursemaid you.

Doesn't bother me, but it may help your credibilty.

Rogue,

The sensors and weapons fits are more capable than those on the Virginia for the task they are for.

I will give you the fact that they will not carry Tomahawks but that is not part of their tasking.

On a sub v sub engagement they will outmatch the Virginias even in a blue water scenario. The only thing the SSNs have on them is range in a long term pursuit but in that case it is a win for the AIP boat.

Cheers

BHR

p.s. As to my credibility, for those with the full knowledge of this, my credibility is fine. As for the rest, I do not care.