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TA-ANALYSIS: Muslim Leader in Virginia Put On Trial For His Words

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posted on Apr, 4 2005 @ 07:44 AM
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Ali Al-Timimi, an Islamic spiritual leader is facing 10 criminal counts, including conspiracy to wage war on the United States by inducing others to commit violent acts with firearms/explosives. All counts center on his support for the attacking of the U.S., or his support of the Taliban. One week after the 9/11 attacks, Timini instructed Muslims in North Virginia to begin training for war with the United States and that jihad was coming.
 



www.washingtonpost.com
Less than a week after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, Timimi told a group of Northern Virginia Muslims that it should train for violent jihad abroad and wage war on the United States, prosecutors say. In 2003, he celebrated the crash of the space shuttle Columbia in a message that prosecutors say reflected his view that the United States itself should be destroyed.

Although legal experts are as divided on the case as the two sides are, some said that the case reflects the power of words in the post-Sept. 11 climate -- and that it poses an important test of the free-speech rights Americans have come to expect since the First Amendment to the Constitution was ratified in 1791.



Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


So is this a case of using a tragic event to create a precedent that would potentially impinge further on the rights of Americans? The professor from Colorado was determined to be safe from job prosecution by the school board of directors. Granted, he wasn't rallying support for war, but his statements were akin to Timini's in that he was decrying the victims of WTC.

Recent events are beginning to suggest that words are a viable reason for enacting legal responsibility. The 'zombie story' in Kentucky, the recent student bombing case, and countless others. It is definetely a fine line, as lives are a major concern....noone wants to look back and see that something could have been done. But at what cost to our First Amendment Rights?

I think it is inevitable for Timini to get jailtime. Afterall, he is up on 10 different counts. The question becomes, then, which count gets him?

Related News Links:
www.hvk.org
www.freerepublic.com




posted on Apr, 4 2005 @ 07:47 AM
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Telling people to wage war against the United States is not protected speech under the 1st Amendment. He deserves whatever he gets.



posted on Apr, 4 2005 @ 11:47 AM
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What he did is treason. Hang him high or give him the needle. Trying to stir people up to wage a war is wrong.



posted on Apr, 4 2005 @ 03:00 PM
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I agree with what's been posted here. I'm not familiar with the ins and outs of the US Constitution, but I would think that inciting violence against the US and its interests would be enough to convict.



posted on Apr, 4 2005 @ 03:08 PM
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Um yeah, thats the point of this threat, the man is clearly guilty. You can't go around tellings people to kill others!?!?



posted on Apr, 4 2005 @ 03:28 PM
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for once i find myself towing the conservative line...
free speech and the right to critisize is one thing...
but calling for a war to be waged against a country is grounds for that country to kill you...
as an act of war... of course...

isn't that what a declaration of war is? whether it be by country or person...
they be toast...

I see this as more of a "threat of endangerment" than a protected freedom of speech.
Sorry no grey line to be devils advocate for...
the dude deserves to be treated like a prisoner of war, and for war crimes.



posted on Apr, 4 2005 @ 03:39 PM
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I believe the constitutional standard defined by the Supreme Court is the "clear and present danger" rule. You can denounce the government all you want and talk about a peaceful overthrow of the U.S. Federal government, but once you start inciting people to violence, you've stepped over the line into illegality.



posted on Apr, 4 2005 @ 03:45 PM
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If they hate the US so much why are they living here!!!



posted on Apr, 4 2005 @ 04:17 PM
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Originally posted by shots
What he did is treason. Hang him high or give him the needle. Trying to stir people up to wage a war is wrong.


Yeah, I agree! Let's add these other Propagandist Bastards to the list too!

Sharon Stirs Up Conflict In Pursuit Of Greater Israel Policy - By Jean Shaoul
www.countercurrents.org...

Chalabi stirs post-war politics - By Barbara Slavin, USA TODAY
www.usatoday.com...

War Pimps - By Jeffery ST. Clair
counterpunch.org...
The war on Iraq won't be remembered for how it was waged so much as for how it was sold. It was a propaganda war, a war of perception management, where loaded phrases, such as "weapons of mass destruction" and "rogue state," were hurled like precision weapons at the target audience: us.


War on Freedom: Bush Halts Inquiry of FBI and Stirs Up a Firestorm
www.mapcruzin.com...
WASHINGTON - President Bush yesterday invoked executive privilege to block a congressional subpoena exploring abuses in the Boston FBI office, prompting the chairman of a House committee to lambaste his fellow Republicans and triggering what one congressman said is the start of ''a constitutional confrontation.''

After 9/11: The War on Immigrants
rwor.org...
overnment officials from President Bush and Attorney General Ashcroft on down thundered that they were in a relentless life-and-death struggle to root out terrorists. Making vague but threatening accusations, the government claimed that the arrested men were suspected of being active or potential terrorists. But not a single person arrested in the post-9/11 sweeps was ever charged with any actions remotely connected to the 9/11 attacks.


This next one is the best though IMO!!!

Free Speech and Patriotism in Times of War
www.stcynic.com...

It has become a truism that the American people are "too cynical" about their government. We hear this repeated often, but I think the truth is quite the opposite. I think most Americans are still entirely naive about their government, even after having our trust betrayed by the government so many times. The nature of government - all governments - is to increase its power, to protect its privelege by abusing and circumventing the law and by expanding the scope of its authority. At no time is this tendency more obvious than in wartime.

In the US, as in most countries, we have a prevailing sentiment that when the country is at war, everyone should "get behind" the government and criticism of their policies should cease. How many times have we heard the protestors of the Iraq war savaged as "anti-american" and "unpatriotic"? I think this conception of patriotism is childish and dangerous, as it has often been used to shred the first amendment. It is astonishing to me how quickly and easily many Americans are willing to give up their freedom, ostensibly in the name of protecting that freedom. And this is not a new phenomenon. It goes all the way back to the founding fathers themselves.



posted on Apr, 4 2005 @ 04:53 PM
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Originally posted by ulshadow
If they hate the US so much why are they living here!!!


Just for a reason, because they want to see the US destroyed.

Not all Muslims are like this though. There are many moderate Muslims. It is stupid idiots like this radical Muslim who should not be living in the States. Radical Muslims, along some other radicals, are using freedom of speech as an excuse to incite violence in the US.


[edit on 4-4-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Apr, 4 2005 @ 06:00 PM
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Death to America!!!!....oh yeah, where can I get a green card?

hehehe, while I agree with you muaddib, I do think that the majority of lunatics like this guy here are simply here in america because at the end of the day, they found our job opportunities and freedom too seductive - even at the cost of betraying their own hatred towards the US.

I live overseas, and I have observed that phenomena of hating the US but wanting to study and work there all too often. On one hand, part of me calls for a Fortress America mentality, that we should shut out of the US anyone who's ever said one bad word against America. But on the other hand, just how long do their sentiments last once they come to the US, and see the country for what it really is, and not for what it is portrayed to be by crazy clerics?

As for this moron, lock him up, execute him for treason, whatever. Won't make a difference - a real terrorist would not be this dumb. I say that if one guy like this actaully can stir up violence simply by ranting and raving within our own borders, then WE need to take a serious look at ourselves.

I am generally a neoconservative (the whole bush-loving, security over privacy, preemptive warfare package) - but people like this exist to show us something: either, through their failure, that america is strong enough to resist them internally, or through their success, that we need to work harder to create a society that cannot possibly respond to such a call to arms.



posted on Apr, 4 2005 @ 08:05 PM
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Originally posted by Archangel76
....but people like this exist to show us something: either, through their failure, that america is strong enough to resist them internally, or through their success, that we need to work harder to create a society that cannot possibly respond to such a call to arms.


I think the whole reason for him to exist in this case is too show reason for 'pre-emptive'.....if he can be prosecuted for criminal usage of words, then at some point, someone having a bad day will get screwed for saying something 'unapproved.' Not saying that day is close......well....not for the general population.....



posted on Apr, 4 2005 @ 09:23 PM
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RIP America. When words become a prosecutable offense, fascism beckons. That is just wrong.



posted on Apr, 5 2005 @ 03:38 PM
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Originally posted by IComeWithASword
RIP America. When words become a prosecutable offense, fascism beckons. That is just wrong.



When Words Incite Violence to Innocent People and you are the one saying these words and you are allowed live free, until someone takes these words and kills your family, That is Just Plain Wrong!

Wether it KKK, Right For Life Terrorists, or Radical Muslims, ANYONE using fear and violience to push their agenda should be prosecuted fully.

This isnt free speech this is Hate speech.



posted on Apr, 12 2005 @ 12:47 AM
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To hang him high??? Some of you people here are just as sadistic and wiked as these muslim extremists that hijack planes in the name the Allah!

The reason why this is not legit to imprison somebody just becasue of his statements against the USA is that there is no proof that he is or will be putting these words into action. Same thing for the KKK... they should be sent straight to jail if they commit racist crimes of any kind, but for spewing their # into Klan meetings, all they deserve is to be beaten down and left naked on the streets! People's justice is supposed to be prevailing above the government's justice, according to your Constitution.... the government should just not be allowed to punish people on its own, under questionable claims of terrorism.



posted on Apr, 12 2005 @ 06:20 AM
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Fire!

And that is only ONE word.


Do we infringe on the rights of people who are too stupid to use that word
carefully?
Is there a situation, where one could be thrown in jail for merely saying it?
Of course there is.

But it's just a word..



posted on Apr, 12 2005 @ 02:02 PM
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Originally posted by shots
What he did is treason. Hang him high or give him the needle. Trying to stir people up to wage a war is wrong.


You mean to say, " The founding fathers were treasonist bastards"?

Whether you meant to or not, that is exactly what you said ...



posted on Apr, 12 2005 @ 02:05 PM
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Originally posted by Echtelion
To hang him high??? Some of you people here are just as sadistic and wiked as these muslim extremists that hijack planes in the name the Allah!

The reason why this is not legit to imprison somebody just becasue of his statements against the USA is that there is no proof that he is or will be putting these words into action. Same thing for the KKK... they should be sent straight to jail if they commit racist crimes of any kind, but for spewing their # into Klan meetings, all they deserve is to be beaten down and left naked on the streets! People's justice is supposed to be prevailing above the government's justice, according to your Constitution.... the government should just not be allowed to punish people on its own, under questionable claims of terrorism.


Bravo, words of wisdom.... A rarity in the day of whiney, scared little people ...



posted on Apr, 12 2005 @ 02:30 PM
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Originally posted by ShiftTrio

Originally posted by IComeWithASword
RIP America. When words become a prosecutable offense, fascism beckons. That is just wrong.




Wether it KKK, Right For Life Terrorists, or Radical Muslims, ANYONE using fear and violience to push their agenda should be prosecuted fully.

This isnt free speech this is Hate speech.


Look at the words you just wrote ....

The US gov't is doing exactly that, Using fear and violence to push a totalitarian agenda...
Are you going to stand up and attempt to prosecute the government for its crime?


You and this muslim seem to think the same way ...
You want protection to say it, while taking away his protection ....
Go figure.... People with your view are simply scared.
The Muslim is scared of you and you of he.. Leads me to believe you should be living in peace. The only thing preventing that is like I said, US agenda.

For the record.... Hate speech falls under the umbrella of Free speech ...
Hate was just as FREE as love, the last time I checked ...

These Muslims need to read up on the law and starting adding "IF" to their talk. By compounding their threats they remove the possibility of a cowardly people prosecuting them.



posted on Apr, 12 2005 @ 03:19 PM
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LEGAL TO SAY:

"I want to see the USA BURRNN!"
"I would revel in the sight of President Bush bleeding from a bullet wound to the head!"
"It is the belief of myself and others that if a country is oppressing you, you should raise an army and kill, kill, kill!"
"It would be my pleasure to see America completely destroyed by nuclear and biological weapons."
"I had a dream last night that I ripped the throat out of President Bush and stir-fried his brains in a pan before serving them to Sharon."

NOT LEGAL:

"You -- you there! I will give you a hundred dollars to bomb something!"
"Now is the time to go out and shoot cops!"
"Our time has come, brothers, now let's go burn stuff down!"
"I helped plan and pay for the WTC attacks!"
"Join me in my war against America -- who has some anthrax??"

Zip




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