TA-ANALYSIS: Muslim Leader in Virginia Put On Trial For His Words

Originally posted by shots
Trying to stir people up to wage a war is wrong.

lmao! ahh....the irony!

I believe it was at the nuremberg trials that this was said: "launching a war of aggression, apart from being the highest crime against humanity, is different from other war crimes in that it contains within it the collected evil of the whole."

When the US invaded vietnam, and then iraq, flag-wavers and deluded 'patriots' were applauding the kinds of crimes that german leaders were hanged for at nuremberg. indeed, trying to stir up people to wage a war is wrong. But not if it is against another country, right?

Muslims are already waging war. They believe spain is theirs. All these terrorists have in mind is global domination. They wanted it in 769AD and they want it to day.

They are not the only ones that want to take over the world, is also the american's and this new world order, captislistic, so called freedom country's. one nation under one race. This means the destruction of nations and governments, destruction of culture, and the destruction of race by race mixing.

If people had a say in europe amd america? then emgriation and race mixing wouldn't be happening.

Words, Words, Words

Originally posted by MemoryShock
So is this a case of using a tragic event to create a precedent that would potentially impinge further on the rights of Americans? The professor from Colorado was determined to be safe from job prosecution by the school board of directors. Granted, he wasn't rallying support for war, but his statements were akin to Timini's in that he was decrying the victims of WTC.

Conspiracy, sedition and incitement to riot or commit murder are all “word crimes”. They all have the distinction of being illegal for as along as the United States has been a nation. Longer, actually, they were illegal in the colonies, too.

These things are not protected speech, despite sanctimonious hand-wringing to the contrary, and they have never been. If Timini incited armed violence, he's guilty and should be punished.

The article is a fluff piece.

The Zombie Story

Originally posted by MemoryShock
Recent events are beginning to suggest that words are a viable reason for enacting legal responsibility. The 'zombie story' in Kentucky, the recent student bombing case, and countless others. It is definetely a fine line, as lives are a major concern....noone wants to look back and see that something could have been done. But at what cost to our First Amendment Rights?

Funny you should mention the “Zombie Story”.

Those who actually followed the story you mentioned found that what was billed as “zombies” turned out to be a very different story, and knowing that, I find it interesting that you mentioned it here.

Let's have a look, because this is very important:

Student Arrested For Writing Zombie Fiction Story!!

Student arrested for threatening school with zombie invasion

From William Poole, the accused
“It's a fake story. I made it up. I've been working on one of my short stories, (and) the short story they found was about zombies. Yes, it did say a high school. It was about a high school over ran by zombies”.

Many ATSers credulously bought William Poole' bogus alibi hook, line and sinker, and assumed authorities in Kentucky were in the wrong.

ATSers used terms like:

- “gestapo tactics” (WyrdeOne)

- that this “would not happen if the current Administration wasn't hell bent on forcing fear down the throats of every single American” (Phaethor)

- that the grandparents of William Poole were “brainwashed by this administration” (CmptrN3rd5)

- How can this be a possible threat to the school when zombies dont exhist? (Croat56)

- Your own family turns you in to the Thought Police. Sound familiar? (truthseeka )

- If I lived any closer, or had a car, I would be down there passing a nail file through the bars. (WyrdeOne)

- Police like their jobs so they look at things negatively just like 2 wrongs don't make a right. (dnero6911)

- Or, he was really trying to recruit a gang to attack the school and the zombie story is his alabi. (HowardRoark -- who based his statement on facts, as will be shown)

- Howard - that's a distortion of the facts. He wrote a short story about zombies taking over his school - standard sci-fi horror stuff. Like "The Faculty." (soficrow) (I have no idea where soficrow got that idea from)

There are plenty more similar statements in both threads, and plenty of assumptions that this was a “travesty of justice”.

Then Came Some Actual Facts

So who was right about the “zombie story”? Here's what developed later in the second thread:

From the Winchester Sun
Student jailed for alleged school takeover threat

Police recovered writings in which Poole allegedly attempted to convince other students to participate in an armed takeover.

From the Lexington Herald-Leader
Details of student's writings revealed

However, Poole's teachers told police they had not assigned such a story or talked to him about it -- and had they seen it, they would have been obligated to report him to authorities.

And, as it turns out, Poole's writings include no brain-eating dead folks.

What they do contain, Winchester police Detective Steven Caudill testified yesterday, is evidence that he had tried to solicit seven fellow students to join him in a military organization called No Limited Soldiers.

The writings describe a bloody shootout in "Zone 2," the designation given to Clark County.

"All the soldiers of Zone 2 started shooting," Caudill read on the witness stand. "They're dropping every one of them. After five minutes, all the people are lying on the ground dead."

The papers contain two different dates of Poole's death.

Poole has corresponded with someone in Barbourville who claimed to have acquired cash and guns in break-ins, Caudill testified.

From the Trentonian
Teen a wannabe killer or next Stephen King?

The headline-grabby word "zombie" wasn’t Poole’s first attempt to justify the contents of his notebook. First he told authorities that it was an assignment for his vocational classes. They checked; no such assignment was given. Then he switched his story to say it was for English class. Another check proved this story untrue. Then came the widely-quoted "zombie" story, which turned out to be more pure fiction.

In other words, the zombie story was all a lie.

And otherwise well-informed people still believe it to this day.

Why This Is Relevant To This Thread

Why did I bring this up in such detail? Because the “zombie story” was mentioned here in the context of a “First Amendment” discussion, and illustrates how easy it is to jump to absurd conclusions without facts.

The story isn't over yet, but the latest indications are that zombies had nothing to do with it.

Most of the members posting in the ATS threads had clearly not even bothered to read these stories, even though the links were posted right there for them by HowardRoark -- who valiantly but fruitlessly attempted to help his fellow ATSers deny ignorance.

Ignorance Remains

Apparently, many ATSers still believe the story of William Poole is about zombies. For them, ignorance remains unchallenged.

The “Zombie” story is mentioned off-hand here as a First Amendment case. It wasn't. The fact that it gets such unthinking inclusion in this context is very disturbing, hence my detailed rebuttal.

“Zombies” was just a nice “hook” for the gullible among us to bite on. I posted so much of the relevant data directly to this thread because links didn't avert gross ignorance in that case and I fear they may not here.

I am hoping not to see a repeat of this shameful display here, but the signs are there.

Please, read and Deny Ignorance, and try not to let yourself get snookered by a slick propaganda hook.

Regarding This Case

Maybe Ali Al-Timimi is innocent. I don't know. But before ATSers go around trumpeting his innocence on First Amendment grounds, I strongly recommend waiting for the facts to come out in this case.

To do otherwise is to actively spread what could be lies and disinformation, and that's not what ATS is about.





[edit on 4/14/2005 by Majic]

Excellent Response Majic

In response to my opinion to the Poole case.....a Zone 2 reference in the story isn't enough of a 'literal reference' to get me to believe that he was plotting in reality against his school or district. Communications with fellow students who have possession of illegal weapons....a good reason to investigate him, sure. But to say for certain he was doing anything.....eh. The investigation and subsequent interventions should have been dealt with as they were. Applying intent and association in a news story, which are specific communications of events to the public is irresponsible and inciteful. The implications of the Al-Timini case could be used towards some popular media figures, but the whole of society is unfamiliar with the art of subtlty.

And subtlty is what makes the Timini case relevant. Are we to now associate anti-nationalism with illegality?

It would get to the point that the automatic response to an unpatriotic remark would be associated with illegality. The listner to the remark would then find that further discussion and thought along these lines would lead to persecution and as such default their response towards a patriotic flavoring. Association is a powerful concept and its application is actually a human biological fact. Memory is abrupt and inclusive of huge amounts of information because of association. The logic form of "If-Then" illustrates this in it's basic form. By immediately condemning Timini's action...oops....words as 'horrible' and 'evil', negate any consideration of Timini's perspective. A critical look(which I know you are supporting, Majic) could very well decide that Timini ought to be persecuted. But the interpretation of this story by the masses is the real topic of interest. If we are to make prompt decisions on a brief, reactionary analysis of words, than maybe Freedom of Speech is irrelevant and the propagation of it is merely smoke and mirrors.