Jacques Chirac & Gerhard Schröder, Brothers in Communism!

Originally posted by American Mad Man
You feel that way because you are used to seeing ONLY anti US threads

Not really..I ususally see US vs (x) threads..

Make a single thread against a European country and all you Euros get your panties in a bunch.

Excuse me my jet black boxer shorts are quite fine...
Actually I dislike being called a hypocrit that is why I get annoyed..
[qutoe]
BTW - there is PLENTY wrong with Communism. See millions of Russians executed under Stalin, tetm - crap, I won't even try to spell it - square in China etc...

Those aint comunists, really just dictatorships under a communist image...

Comunism restricts rights, and keeps the people poor. If you don't realize that when when comunism is actually used IN THE REAL WORLD it is bad, you need only look at the difference between east and west Germany from the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's.

Comunism GIVES rights.....it keeps everyone the same level...hell there is no money!
As I stated before those where dictatorships under a comunist image...

Originally posted by devilwasp
...........
Comunism GIVES rights.....it keeps everyone the same level...hell there is no money!
As I stated before those where dictatorships under a comunist image...

That's the excuse all communists give as to why the world should keep trying to accept the Marxist/Leninist doctrine....

Can you please tell us of one communist country that actually gives freedom to the people?.... just one?....

BTW National Security Agency, good research man. I am also voting you for the above top secret award.

Originally posted by American Mad Man

Originally posted by devilwasp
Why do I feel like there is an ever increaseing number of ANTI-French/german/EU/comunist threads on ATS?
BTW....whats wrong with communism?
(Cant wait for the hounds to give chase)

You feel that way because you are used to seeing ONLY anti US threads

Make a single thread against a European country and all you Euros get your panties in a bunch.

BTW - there is PLENTY wrong with Communism. See millions of Russians executed under Stalin, tetm - crap, I won't even try to spell it - square in China etc...

Comunism restricts rights, and keeps the people poor. If you don't realize that when when comunism is actually used IN THE REAL WORLD it is bad, you need only look at the difference between east and west Germany from the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's.

THank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I'm so glad you said that. One second I am gonna praise that response some more................THANK YOU FOR SAYING WHAT HASN'T BEEN SAID AND WHAT MANY DON'T WANT TO HEAR.

Originally posted by National Security Agency

Originally posted by Hannah

before you tell us here that they are all communist brothers, you should do some real research, from all sides...

Some "real" research? Is that a suggestion that I have not done "real" research?


Let's look at the reason I would use the statement "Communist Brothers!":

1. Both have an established tendency prior to holding office to lean toward communist ideals and participate in communist related organizations.

--------------------------------------

Gerhard Schröder Connection:
1. Schröder joined the Social Democratic Party in 1963. In 1978 he became the federal chairman of the Young Socialists, the youth organisation of the SPD.
2. The Social Democratic Party and the Communist Party of Germany were forced to merge to form the Socialist Unity Party of Germany (SED). During the fall of Communist rule in 1989, the SPD was re-established as a separate party in East Germany and then merged with its West German counterpart upon reunification.
3. Schröder joined in 1963 in which time the ideals it was founded on were still intact while undergoing transformation. A precarious time to join.
4. Most voters associate Schröder with the Agenda 2010 reform program, which includes cuts in the social security (medical aid, unemployment security, pensions), lowering taxes, and reforming regulations on employment and payment (Hartz I - IV). After the 2002 election, Schröder's SPD party steadily lost support in opinion polls. What started as a third way program in line with Tony Blair and Bill Clinton became to many eyes a harsh knock-down of the German welfare state.
--------------

Jacques Chirac Connection:

Jacques Chirac was initially attracted towards left-wing causes, leading him to sell the Communist newspaper l'Humanité and to sign the Communist-inspired Stockholm Call against nuclear weapons in 1950. These left-wing ties proved later a hindrance to him, for instance in his first visit to the United States and his military career. Indeed, even though he finished first of his class at the armored cavalry officer academy of Saumur, the military wanted to de-rank him because they did not wish a "Communist" to become an officer. However, Chirac's extensive family acquaintances had him ranked back at the correct position.

After completing officer's school, Jacques Chirac volunteered to be deployed in Algeria (while the Algerian War of Independence was raging), even though his family relations would easily have allowed him to obtain a safe position away from the war. He was wounded during his tour of duty.
-----------------


I'm giving a subjective opinion of what I see, so don't take it personally. Jacques Chirac seems to be the one with a definitive example of sympathy. If you call me "stupid" as some have suggested than I say to you, is it "stupid" not to bring it into question? Enjoy.

[edit on 3-4-2005 by National Security Agency]

first of all, i never intended to label you, NSA, as "a stupid person", we all see things from a different point of view or perspective, and have therefore different opinions.
with "real" research, i meant, that you should also take into account, the history, the current situation in the countries you "critizise" and also the general opinion/view of the public in this country. simply by seeing this is a "social/socialist" party ( by the name of the party ) does not mean that this really reflects the current or modern goals/visions/whatever of this political party. if germany was really led by a "communist/socialist" party we would have already "joined" your axis-of-evil.
oh how i wish you could just get a flight over here, have a good time together and look what the political situation in germany is REALLY like ( so many "expert" threads, of people who see one headline and therefore proclaim the fall of economy, or the rise of the 4th reich....kotz ) . i guess this is the main problem with all the so called "anti-us" or "anti-eu" threads on this board, we are all quick in pointing our finger at some country, without having a real idea how living in this country is like.

the main problem i have with your post, is that you are putting whole political parties in the "communist" line, because they had historically ( this is a lot of decades ago, if you to take a look at ,for example,wikipedia ) a connection to "socialist/communist" ideas, or have a "social" aspect in their political vision.
but once again, the SPD is far away from beeing a communist party, it's purely democratic-capitalistic, while trying to remain a bare minimum of social-security. if you would spend just a few days here you would figure that out very quick. the SED is a complete different story, of course they were communist/socialist, because the ex-DDR was a communist state.
but that does simply not mean, that all people that may have "changed" from SED to the SPD ( most of them would change to the PDS btw. ) are still following this ideas, if they look at reality they will figure out very soon that it's simply not possible.
overall, after living in germany since i was born, i simply cannot see any connection between mr. schroeder, the SPD, and real communistic ideals, at least in the 1/4 century i'm alive. history is history, what counts is what is going on today, and what effect this has on our future, otherwise you're free to greet me with a friendly "heil hitler" , call me a nazi and that's it.

the simple reason for selling weapons to any state is money and nothing else. we are a democratic nation ( and i have to thank perhaps your, and of course uk, candian etc. , grandfathers/mothers for helping in getting us there ), the SPD has never tried to undermine or change this, so i simply don't understand why mr. schroeder is a communist-brother for beeing part of a "social" party, and following capitalistic ideals, in simply making as much money as possible.

Make a single thread against a European country and all you Euros get your panties in a bunch.

yeah the big brush, or how do native-english-speakers call it? just point your finger, it's not primitive at all. i'm a "euro" and i basically just stated that neither the SPD nor the JuSos are socialist/communist parties and anyone who dares to take a closer look will see that

[edit on 4-4-2005 by Hannah]

[edit on 4-4-2005 by Hannah]

[edit on 4-4-2005 by Hannah]

Originally posted by Hannah
so i simply don't understand why mr. schroeder is a communist-brother for beeing part of a "social" party, and following capitalistic ideals, in simply making as much money as possible.

You make a very good point. The title is a possibility, it obviously is not fact. People report on Bush not being in the ******* reservist during Vietnam because it is a possibility. Although it has more credibility than the current discussion here because Bush is a daddy's boy little weasel that gets by with anything he does, but the point is that statements are a reflection of the possibilities, possibilty to link with situation.

I accept your statement that if I took a flight over there and saw the politics of Germany I'd know it was untrue. In fact, I'd love to take you up on that offer because I love Europe and haven't visited in three years. Anyways, thank you for your thoughtful reply.

Forgive me if I do not understand. I have read a lot of literature but as we both know literature never gives a full compliment to the real thing.

It is also vice-versa the reasons you discuss with European attitudes toward American politics. For example, which magazine/newspaper was it that stated "How can 51% of Americans be so stupid?". Was that a true expression of how Europeans feel or it is propaganda or is printed to sell newspapers by the ton?

the main problem i have with your post, is that you are putting whole political parties in the "communist" line, because they had historically ( this is a lot of decades ago, if you to take a look at ,for example,wikipedia ) a connection to "socialist/communist" ideas

I was not describing it as in terms of present, but past. He (Gerhard) had connections to the SDP while it was still undergoing transition from its former self.

history is history, what counts is what is going on today, and what effect this has on our future, otherwise you're free to greet me with a friendly "heil hitler" , call me a nazi and that's it.

I'd never do such a thing. You underestimate me.

[edit on 4-4-2005 by National Security Agency]

Originally posted by National Security Agency
It is also vice-versa the reasons you discuss with European attitudes toward American politics. For example, which magazine/newspaper was it that stated "How can 51% of Americans be so stupid?". Was that a true expression of how Europeans feel or it is propaganda or is printed to sell newspapers by the ton?

now,"the 51% americans be so stupid" , was at least in my opinion, a try to sell a lot of papers. while many people would probably prefer a different president, this is the way the us-citizens have decided and it has to be respected, in my opinion.
the main reasons for people beeing against the current us-administration, is that your president, mr.rumsfeld and co. have made some quite disrespectfull, and quite outdated statements, just take as an example the "who cares about old-europe", "i'm a war president" or "god wanted me to...." statements.
in a region of our world, where wars have dominated whole millenias, with infantile reasons like "my god is better than yours" or "my skin-color is superiour to yours" this is percieved different, than in the united states.
but down to the bottom, regarding a lot of threads here, the 3rd worldwar blabla etc., i have absolutly NO doubt that old-europe will stand with the US if it is absolutly necessary. we share the same goals, democracy, equality, and freedom ( at least on the paper ), we may have some little differences but thats it, and most people i know see it exactly the same way. i haven't yet met someone here, who honestly wishes to see the US falling, we just dare to critize you in some aspects, and i guess that's ok. i critizise my personal friends sometimes too.

I was not describing it as in terms of present, but past. He (Gerhard) had connections to the SDP while it was still undergoing transition from its former self.

what do you think was his former self ? from your post i don't see it, he was a member of the JuSoS, which are simply not socialist, they are the youth-organisation of the same party, the SPD, which is democratic party.

I'd never do such a thing. You underestimate me.

that was purely hypothetical, and nothing else ( if someone only looks at the history..). no personal offence or anything like that.

Originally posted by Hannah

Originally posted by National Security Agency
It is also vice-versa the reasons you discuss with European attitudes toward American politics. For example, which magazine/newspaper was it that stated "How can 51% of Americans be so stupid?". Was that a true expression of how Europeans feel or it is propaganda or is printed to sell newspapers by the ton?

now,"the 51% americans be so stupid" , was at least in my opinion, a try to sell a lot of papers. while many people would probably prefer a different president, this is the way the us-citizens have decided and it has to be respected, in my opinion.
the main reasons for people beeing against the current us-administration, is that your president, mr.rumsfeld and co. have made some quite disrespectfull, and quite outdated statements, just take as an example the "who cares about old-europe", "i'm a war president" or "god wanted me to...." statements.

Ah yes that is quite stupid.....or it is quite intelligent.

You see even as "distinguished" representatives of the United States when they go abroad they are merely respresenting the people who have elected them and staying with their "political base". When they say, "who cares about old europe" or "god wanted me to". Every move a politician or representative of a politician makes is calculated.........No doubt.

Ofcourse, Rumsfield is not elected but he works for the man that is elected and the man (GWB) is elected by the citizens.

The citizens are motivated to vote for this or that representative by how many organizations can canvass county areas within states. In the case of Bush & Co. it is the fringe conservative groups. They've figured out that the fringe groups of Christianity are the most effective groups to "get out the vote".

The actions, public displays, symbolism, and every single action made by the administration is and still calculated. Even when they visit Europe.

The actions they make now are still vital to their success. When they leave they still need the fringe conservatives for other Republicans to be elected not only in Presidential seat but also Congressional seats.

The scary part about America is that the Republicans now have control and have "redistricting" happening in vital county's within states. That is the main reason they have so many Congressional seats. They have found a loophole in our democracy.

Say the statistics of A county have 60% of voters voting Republican in the city of A1 with a population of 30,000 people.
Then you have B county near the city of A1, and B county only has 49% voting Republican by the tally of 255,000 vs. 245,000.
The solution, get the State Senate controlled by Republican forces to redistrict the voting parameters.
It is far more complicated than that and I probably have something wrong, but at least that is how I understand it. I haven't really researched it.


Although thats how that got my favorite politician out of office, the Honorable Max Sandlin of Texas. Do a wikipedia search of just Max Sandlin.

i have no doubt, that most of this statements and their consequences are calculated, on both sides.
in my opinion, what we see, or have seen, the "worsening" relationship between europe and the US are calculated too. it's just part of the diplomatic game, because everyone wants to satisfy the majority of their voters or financial supporters. maybe some stupid statments have been made, again on both sides, but in general we depend on each other and noone wants to risk this.
the "main-reason", the statements of the US admin. , are of course just what the average joe/jane sees and cares about, most people in our world won't spend just 5 minutes thinking about it, and i guess that's the case again on both sides.
diplomacy is dirty, sometimes they need to find very "simple" arguments to motivate the masses for their goal. what we really need, are more people who think with their own neurons

almost 5 a.m. over here...bedtime

Great job and a big thumbs up to you, Hannah!
I thought you did a great job to give NSA an impression on what is really going on in Germany - after I read the first posts of this thread I became a bit furious and already thougt about explaining a few things - but then I read through all of the posts and found that you already filled the gap for some first hand information from good old europe about our communist brothership

Originally posted by Muaddib
That's the excuse all communists give as to why the world should keep trying to accept the Marxist/Leninist doctrine....

Untrue..
Might I point out comunism really doesnt have a country...sinc it believes in total equality...so no countries and no armies, no companies, etc...

Can you please tell us of one communist country that actually gives freedom to the people?.... just one?....

Cant because no comunist countries exist....

THank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I'm so glad you said that. One second I am gonna praise that response some more................THANK YOU FOR SAYING WHAT HASN'T BEEN SAID AND WHAT MANY DON'T WANT TO HEAR.

Mabye they dont want to hear it because its a loud of trudundle....

[edit on 26/02/2005 by devilwasp]

Originally posted by devilwasp

Can you please tell us of one communist country that actually gives freedom to the people?.... just one?....

Cant because no comunist countries exist....

no comunist countries exist?????


How about Cuba?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Geez.....

Cuba is a "Communist state", or a parliamentary republic led by a Communist Party. Fidel Castro has been the head of state and head of government since 1959, first as prime minister and after the abolition of that office in 1976 as president of the Councils of State and Ministers. He is also the member of the National Assembly of People's Power from the municipality of Santiago de Cuba since 1976, First Secretary of the Cuban Communist Party, and commander in chief of the armed forces.

The unicameral Cuban parliament is the National Assembly of People's Power or Asamblea Nacional del Poder Popular. Its 609 members are elected to serve five-year terms, without opposition. The candidates, who may or may not be members of the Cuban Communist Party, are nominated by pro-government social and political organizations. The Communist Party is constitutionally recognised as Cuba's only legal political party, but is forbidden by law to nominate candidates. However this is largely a moot point since no known opponents of the government have been elected since the revolution.




Are these not communist countries also?




Current one-party, Soviet-style "Communist states" and their ruling parties are:

* People's Republic of China (since 1949) - Communist Party of China
* Republic of Cuba (Cuban Revolution in 1959, socialist state declared in 1961) - Communist Party of Cuba
* Lao People's Democratic Republic (since 1975) - Lao People's Revolutionary Party
* Democratic People's Republic of Korea (since 1948) - Korean Workers' Party
* Socialist Republic of Vietnam (since 1976) - Communist Party of Vietnam





[edit on 5-4-2005 by National Security Agency]

Originally posted by National Security Agency

Dann sollen Sie in einer Gesellschaft der Zustandgeheimhaltung leben, die zum multipolaren enviroment des Umsturzes und Konvertierung führt. Spion gegen den Spion im alltäglichen Leben. Ich lebte es, ich weiß es. Ordern Sie nicht heraus, mir etwas Verschiedenes zu erzählen, ich stütze das auf die berufliche und erste Handerfahrung.

Vielleicht ist der Grund keiner von Ihnen Am A.T.S. versteht die Vorstellungen der Macht und Kriegs nicht, weil Sie die Beklemmung eines Regimes nie gelebt und einen Regimeanstieg bezeugt haben, um zu rasen. Das ist, wo Ihr Fehler in jedem Menschen in der Fähigkeit liegt, naiv zu sein.
Naiv zu sein. Die Führer-Entscheidungen nicht zu verstehen und Sie anzunehmen, tun. Vertrauen Sie mir, ich erzähle Wahrheit, wo es keine Wahrheit gibt und bald alle sehen sollen.

[edit on 3-4-2005 by National Security Agency]

Meinst du, dass keine von ATS Krieg erfahren hat?? Mann muss naiv sein, so etwas zu glauben. Ja, wissen wir alle dass macht und krieg nicht gutes fuer den Menschenkeit sind. Aber sie waren hier, seit ewigkeit. Kann Mann gar nix dagegen tun.

Auf jedenfalls, was hat dass eigentlich mit diese' Thema zu tun????

Originally posted by nathraq

Originally posted by national Security Agency
then you are to live in a society of the condition secrecy, which enviroment to multipole arene the revolution and conversion leads. Feeler gauge against the feeler gauge in the everyday life. I lived it, I white it. Orders you out to tell me something different I do not support by the vocational and first hand experience. Perhaps the reason none of you is at the A.T.S. understands the conceptions of power and war not, because you never lived the anxiety of a regime and a regime rise testified, in order to race. That is, where your error lies in each humans in the ability to be naive. To be naive. The leader decisions to understand and assume, do not do you. Trust me, I tell truth, where there is no truth and soon all to see is.

you mean that none of ATS war experienced?? Man must be naive to believe such a thing. Yes, we know all that make and war good for the peopleness are not. But they were here, since eternity. Man can do nix against it. On anyhow, which has that with this ' topic to actually do????

Let's stick to a common language please. If you review the General ATS discussion etiquette thread you find the following words from SimonGray :

This is a written communication medium, so it makes sense to format your posts for easy reading for everyone.

You need to realise that they're political leanings cannot be taken in an American context. Over in europe, socialist ideology is predominant hence the way of life that the Frence and German people expect from their political leaders. Hence, to them joining a socialist party is considered being in the "mainstream".

As for any so-called favoritsm towards China because of this, you have it all wrong, Communist China is better known as "Capitalist Military Dictatorship" China because of the reforms it has been making for the last 20 or so years. Theres not much Communist left about China.

The reality is that on the stage of world politics, the europeans are probably trying to nuture the next world power to compete with the USA, it never really hurt to be friendly with everyone. China becoming a superpower is not in anyway a threat to the USA unlike the USSR so in the long term I don't see a problem here.

Originally posted by National Security Agency

no comunist countries exist?????


How about Cuba?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Geez.....

Cuba is a "Communist state", or a parliamentary republic led by a Communist Party. Fidel Castro has been the head of state and head of government since 1959, first as prime minister and after the abolition of that office in 1976 as president of the Councils of State and Ministers. He is also the member of the National Assembly of People's Power from the municipality of Santiago de Cuba since 1976, First Secretary of the Cuban Communist Party, and commander in chief of the armed forces.

The unicameral Cuban parliament is the National Assembly of People's Power or Asamblea Nacional del Poder Popular. Its 609 members are elected to serve five-year terms, without opposition. The candidates, who may or may not be members of the Cuban Communist Party, are nominated by pro-government social and political organizations. The Communist Party is constitutionally recognised as Cuba's only legal political party, but is forbidden by law to nominate candidates. However this is largely a moot point since no known opponents of the government have been elected since the revolution.

Cube is really the exception to that...but I'm not too sure if cuba really could be defined as a comunist country...mabye socialist...

Current one-party, Soviet-style "Communist states" and their ruling parties are:

* People's Republic of China (since 1949) - Communist Party of China

They are a dictatorship....if you didnt notice..

* Republic of Cuba (Cuban Revolution in 1959, socialist state declared in 1961) - Communist Party of Cuba

They are socialist...a diffrent group..but I am not sure if you could really define them as comunist so mabye..

* Lao People's Democratic Republic (since 1975) - Lao People's Revolutionary Party

Democratic party....same side as comunists BUT not the same..

* Democratic People's Republic of Korea (since 1948) - Korean Workers' Party

They are a dictatorship as well if my memory serves me well..

* Socialist Republic of Vietnam (since 1976) - Communist Party of Vietnam
[edit on 5-4-2005 by National Security Agency]

Yet agin...socialist not comunist..but I would think they would be slightly right winged as well...

Originally posted by devilwasp

Current one-party, Soviet-style "Communist states" and their ruling parties are:

* People's Republic of China (since 1949) - Communist Party of China

They are a dictatorship....if you didnt notice..

* Republic of Cuba (Cuban Revolution in 1959, socialist state declared in 1961) - Communist Party of Cuba

They are socialist...a diffrent group..but I am not sure if you could really define them as comunist so mabye..

* Lao People's Democratic Republic (since 1975) - Lao People's Revolutionary Party

Democratic party....same side as comunists BUT not the same..

* Democratic People's Republic of Korea (since 1948) - Korean Workers' Party

They are a dictatorship as well if my memory serves me well..

* Socialist Republic of Vietnam (since 1976) - Communist Party of Vietnam
[edit on 5-4-2005 by National Security Agency]

Yet agin...socialist not comunist..but I would think they would be slightly right winged as well...

Okay, well this is really getting OLD!!


Here let me sum it up for you:


Vietnam:

The Socialist Republic of Vietnam is governed through a highly centralized system dominated by the Communist Party of Vietnam (Đảng Cộng Sản Việt Nam), which was formerly known as the Vietnamese Labor Party.

North Korea:

North Korea's government is dominated by the communist Korean Workers' Party (KWP), to which all government officials belong. Minor political parties exist, but not in opposition to KWP-rule. In practice the exact power structure of the country is somewhat unclear, although it is commonly accepted that the nation's regime is a totalitarian dictatorship.

Lao:

The only legal political party is the Lao People's Revolutionary Party (LPRP). The head of state is a president elected by parliament for a five-year term. The head of government is a prime minister appointed by the president, with parliamentary approval. Government policies are determined by the party through the all-powerful nine-member Politburo and the 49-member Central Committee. Important government decisions are vetted by the Council of Ministers.




You know what? YOUR WASTING MY TIME! Use wikipedia.org or a reputable enclyopedia that your comfortable with. Get some intelligence and mix it with some grace and you shall be brilliant.



[edit on 5-4-2005 by National Security Agency]

Originally posted by National Security Agency
Okay, well this is really getting OLD!!

Sorry if I'm not..."up to date"

Vietnam:

The Socialist Republic of Vietnam is governed through a highly centralized system dominated by the Communist Party of Vietnam (Đảng Cộng Sản Việt Nam), which was formerly known as the Vietnamese Labor Party.
[/qutoe]
That still tells no one anything about the way they run it.....all your doing is listening department heads..
[qutoe]
North Korea:

North Korea's government is dominated by the communist Korean Workers' Party (KWP), to which all government officials belong. Minor political parties exist, but not in opposition to KWP-rule. In practice the exact power structure of the country is somewhat unclear, although it is commonly accepted that the nation's regime is a totalitarian dictatorship.

Exsactly as I thought....dictatorship..

Lao:

The only legal political party is the Lao People's Revolutionary Party (LPRP). The head of state is a president elected by parliament for a five-year term. The head of government is a prime minister appointed by the president, with parliamentary approval. Government policies are determined by the party through the all-powerful nine-member Politburo and the 49-member Central Committee. Important government decisions are vetted by the Council of Ministers.

Sort of mix between 1920's riechstag idea's, new democracys ideas and really right wing parties...interesteing..



[qupte]
You know what? YOUR WASTING MY TIME! Use wikipedia.org or a reputable enclyopedia that your comfortable with. Get some intelligence and mix it with some grace and you shall be brilliant.
[edit on 5-4-2005 by National Security Agency]
Your wasteing your own time replying to me....dont want to waste it?
Dont post..
You want to research what exactly?
Those parties?
I already know of them...not a single one is comunist...

Originally posted by devilwasp
I already know of them...not a single one is comunist...

Really? Wow. You have to be joking, right? So, in your expert opinion was the USSR communist?

Originally posted by National Security Agency
Really? Wow. You have to be joking, right? So, in your expert opinion was the USSR communist?

Hell no they werent comunist!
If the USSR was communist I would call the state of missipi pre 1950 a civil rights workers playground!