Originally posted by GrOuNd_ZeRo
I only saw one Mi-24 being shot down by a MANPAD, but i'm sure many more have been shot down, i'm not doubting that, but US helicopters are being shot down by RPGs

There is a HUGE difference here. Apaches getting shot down by RPG's are ones hovering just above urban warfare area's like cities and such. Sitting ducks. Im sure any Hind would also easily be shot down if cought in such a situation. So please dont use that as an example. Ground vehicles with 30 times the armor of ANY aircraft succumb to RPG's, your example implies that a Hind cant be hurt by one, and thats simply not true. As far as I can recollect, Hinds havent been used in the same way Apache's are being used.

I would personally rate the Mi-24 and Longbow around the same, their capabilities are roughly equal,but Hinds need less maintainence, are cheaper and are uglier (really,if you saw a Hind you would rather shoot yourself than get chewed up by its rockets and cannon)

Originally posted by skippytjc

Originally posted by GrOuNd_ZeRo
I only saw one Mi-24 being shot down by a MANPAD, but i'm sure many more have been shot down, i'm not doubting that, but US helicopters are being shot down by RPGs

There is a HUGE difference here. Apaches getting shot down by RPG's are ones hovering just above urban warfare area's like cities and such. Sitting ducks. Im sure any Hind would also easily be shot down if cought in such a situation. So please dont use that as an example. Ground vehicles with 30 times the armor of ANY aircraft succumb to RPG's, your example implies that a Hind cant be hurt by one, and thats simply not true. As far as I can recollect, Hinds havent been used in the same way Apache's are being used.

Did I say there wasn't a huge difference? i'm just stating a fact, US helicopters are being shot down too, and thankfully the Iraqi's didn't have any MANPAD's like SA-7's or worse, SA-18s.

You guys misinterpreted what I stated (which is my bad), and now you guys are attacking me because i'm not defending American technology as being super uber 1337, My country uses MAINLY US equipment, it's good stuff, and do you guys suddenly take it that I attack it by stating they get shot down by RPGs? there is no need to be all defensive, i'm just stating what I know, and I don't mean to rub off as some anti-amercian terrorist or what not...lol

If I offended you or what not, I apologize. but I didn't mean to

The Hind sucks, besically because it cannot fly low to the ground without breaking down all the trees in neighbourhood. And it is not so invulnerable like many of you state, it can be shot down by small arms or RPG. But the best helicopter design in service now is Hokum - although it has it's disadvantages too - ,maintance,RCS, high drag and the older versions had only fixed gun, instead of turret.
About the "made them all with counterrotating blades" sugestion, I disagree. There are better designs today, like VTDP, NOTAR, or Canard-rotor-wing (X-50 dragonfly). None of them is in service though so Hokum remains the best...

Originally posted by longbow
The Hind sucks, besically because it cannot fly low to the ground without breaking down all the trees in neighbourhood. And it is not so invulnerable like many of you state, it can be shot down by small arms or RPG. But the best helicopter design in service now is Hokum - although it has it's disadvantages too - ,maintance,RCS, high drag and the older versions had only fixed gun, instead of turret.

We were just talking about survivability and I didn't say the Hind was invulnerable. The fact remains though that in Afganistan they were tearing the muj apart up until around 1986 when the stingers began to arrive. Up until then very few Hinds were brought down. They can aslo carry a heavy load of weaponry allowing them to be more ' liberal ' with their use.

Apaches on the other hand are highly vulnerable to small arms fire even relatively light calibers such as 7.62. These rounds would barely scratch a Hind.

The things that suck about the hind is the way it flies, it can't hover for very long since the wings inhibit the downward thrust.

Pilots that flew the hind discribe it as a hybrid between a heli and a fixed wing aircraft.

The fixed gun wasn't a big deal, hell, the AH-1 has a fixed 20mm gatling.

The hind is considdered one of THE best attack helicopters ever made since it's so well protected, so fast (fastest in the world IIRC), and so well armed.

The Apache however is much more specialized and relatively stealthy since it's so good at sneaking up on it's targets. (I am not saying at all it's STEALTH, but you know what I mean)

Originally posted by GrOuNd_ZeRo

The hind is considdered one of THE best attack helicopters ever made since it's so well protected, so fast (fastest in the world IIRC), and so well ar

Fastest in the world? Maybe officialy, butI had a friend working on them, and he said that when armed you cannot fly them more than 300km/hour, because the components starts to "fly off"..

Kinda off-topic, but I think the sight of a "Hind" emerging from behind a mountain and slowly approaching you is probably one of the most horrifying and disturbing images anybody can ever witness.

Originally posted by rogue1


Saddam used his Hinds to great effect putting dwon the shiite uprising in 1992. Some Hinds brazenly hovered in front of Shiite positions impervious to anything smaller than .50 .
Hinds can take far more punishment from small arms than an Apache, but they are both highly vulnerable to MANPADS. Luckily very few have been seen in Iraq and those that have been are of a far older less effective design then the modern ones.

I believe it Hinds did the same thing in Afghanistan they mowed down whole villages with impunity while fighting the mujahidin. They couldnt really do much to stop them at first.

Allowing Saddam to fly Helicopters including gunships after his surrender in 1991 was a huge mistake. The Shiites couldnt fight those things and the uprising was easliy crushed.

I have heard of some tactics used by the mujahidin against the Hinds that had some success. If they hit a HIND right on the Russian Red Star painted on them they would bring them down much easier. Thats where I believe lightly protected oil cooler was located and a hit there would bring the beast down.

Then they got US stinger missiles though

[edit on 1-4-2005 by ShadowXIX]

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
Kinda off-topic, but I think the sight of a "Hind" emerging from behind a mountain and slowly approaching you is probably one of the most horrifying and disturbing images anybody can ever witness.

It's like a spider isn't it?

There is a game... "Operation Flashpoint" I play regularly... and the sound and sight of a Hind is still the most terrifying thing in the game.

you know it's the last thing you are going to see... they have unbeliebable firepower.

The AH-64, Cobra, Mi-17 and Mi-28 are not as scary as a hind on the battlefield... it's like a flying arsenal

Originally posted by Lucretius
It's like a spider isn't it?

There is a game... "Operation Flashpoint" I play regularly... and the sound and sight of a Hind is still the most terrifying thing in the game.

you know it's the last thing you are going to see... they have unbeliebable firepower.

The AH-64, Cobra, Mi-17 and Mi-28 are not as scary as a hind on the battlefield... it's like a flying arsenal

I love OpFlash, I play it very often as well. It's modded heavily, so it's got all realistic units too.

And I agree, even in the game, the sight of an approaching Hind is a freakish sight.

Thats exactly my point. If any of you guys played Project IGI 2 you will probably know what I mean, if you don't get chewed up by the missles you will get shot dead by the cannon.

Originally posted by ShadowXIX

Then they got US stinger missiles though

Yes a very efective weapon. Pakistanis 3 man ISI teams were the first to take them into Afghanistan for the muj. Rumour has it, that it's first use against the Soviets was vidoe taped ( I think 2 Hinds were brought down ) and within 48 hrs it was shown to Reagan.
I wonder if this footage will ever surface.

The muj was supposed to keep the empty tubes back to Pakistan to prove they had used them and to obtain a fw more. however this became impossible to confirm, leading to many ' black ' stingers floating around.

Originally posted by W4rl0rD
I'll pick 3 Russian helicopters, MiL-28, Ka-50 and the Mi-24.

Russian helicopters are the only thing that are ahead of US tech by around 5 to 10 years, after all they are more heavily armored and look uglier. Also,the Longbow, which is probably the most advanced US attack chopper now, is still using 80's tech and until now the US still has not designed something new or went with the Commache.

Hey W4rl0rD, where on Earth did you ever get that idea? The Apache is capable of things the Hind never was. It was designed as a tank hunter. The Longbow is NOT 80s tech. The AH-64 A Apaches used in the first Gulf War, which were analog, were 80s tech. The Longbow is 90s tech and now they have upgrades for the Longbow, bringing it to 21st century tech. The Apache is one of the most survivable attack helicopters in the world.

Have you ever seen the difference between the cockpits of an 80s (AH-64A) Apache and a Longbow Apache? It's like the difference between a modern nuclear submarine and a WWII German U-boat. HUGE difference in the technology.

Russian helos are not and never have been "5 to 10 years ahead" of the American helos. In 1989, the Apache had a helmet-mounted display that moved as the pilot turned his head; the Hind's was fixed. Only recently has the Hind acquired more sophisticated digital technology. This is 2005.

What the Russians have proven is that they can make very robust, powerful helicopters that can take a lot of beating.

I think that the helicopter market is very even. The apache doesnt have a clear lead over the later hinds or vice versa.

If it came to a dog fight between a hind and an Apache, you'd have to bet on the Apache. It is far more manouvrable and its gun can be brought to bare more quickly.