Why Does Biological, Organic Life Exist in a Universe that is Inorganic ?

originally posted by: Quintilian

So in effect you are saying that people choose to have schizophrenia. Or perhaps worse than that, that somehow they deserve it?

Cause and effect. People can get diabetes from eating too much refined sugar. They're not choosing to get diabetes, they are just exhibiting behavior that can lead to it. Big difference.

How can being born deformed because of decisions other people have made, have anything to do with individual free will?

their parents had free will

The fact that when and which mit you lift is largely predictable seems to disagree. But then you haven't defined free will, so who knows?

OH I see. You're a bot, and don't have free will. Carry on.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: Quintilian

I often get a kick out of it when believers define atheism for the atheists.

I also get a kick out of it when non-believers defines theism for theists. They often give a generic misconstrued definition of the belief, which makes it no wonder they are an atheist if that is what they believe theism is.

I agree that belief can be diverse. From simulation theory to an unfathomable intelligence to a cranky old man in the sky.

What do you believe in?

originally posted by: cooperton

Cause and effect. People can get diabetes from eating too much refined sugar. They're not choosing to get diabetes, they are just exhibiting behavior that can lead to it. Big difference.

So not choosing something=Free will in your belief system?

That sounds more like determinism (yes, cause and effect).

their parents had free will

...and personal "free will" is now also contingent on what other people do before you were born?

That's free will?

OH I see. You're a bot, and don't have free will. Carry on.

Don't feel bad. You're not the only one that can't mount an argument for the religious type of free will. Although so far you haven't really defined it to begin with.

one sec

originally posted by: Quintilian
So not choosing something=Free will in your belief system?

That sounds more like determinism (yes, cause and effect).

Yes and the cause is the choices that people make.

...and personal "free will" is now also contingent on what other people do before you were born?

That's free will?

We get passed the baton from our parents, however good or bad it may be. You can still choose to do what you want to whatever degree that your consciousness will allow it. Yes there are some cases where people are pretty much comatose their whole life from birth, but that is an exception. Someone in a coma doesn't have the ability to use their material body, so the question of free will is not applicable.

Don't feel bad. You're not the only one that can't mount an argument for the religious type of free will. Although so far you haven't really defined it to begin with.

I was making a point. You're not a bot. You're a person that is choosing to have this conversation.

God knowing what everyone will do does not rob us of the ability to make the choice. The two are not mutually exclusive. I can choose to override my initial decision and it is my choice to do so, it just so happens that an extra-dimensional super being (God) knows what I will inevitably choose to do.

originally posted by: Quintilian

I agree that belief can be diverse. From simulation theory to an unfathomable intelligence to a cranky old man in the sky.

What do you believe in?

Unfathomable intelligence that so happens to also be my loving Parent.

originally posted by: cooperton


Yes and the cause is the choices that people make.

Also the choices that other people make...which can include the time before they were born...

That's not free will.

We get passed the baton from our parents, however good or bad it may be. You can still choose to do what you want to whatever degree that your consciousness will allow it. Yes there are some cases where people are pretty much comatose their whole life from birth, but that is an exception. Someone in a coma doesn't have the ability to use their material body, so the question of free will is not applicable.

So now only some people have "free will"?

Our universe propagates in only three ways that we know of. Deterministic (where outcomes are determined by prior causal chain), random (where outcomes can't be predicted even in principle), or a mixture of the two.If it's determined it can't be freely willed. Nor if it's random.

I have doubts about the second one but anyway...neither of these things, nor any mixture of the two, can arrive at "free will" (in the general religious sense). If you think they can you really have some 'splaining to do.

Experiments also seem to support this. Which mit you lift and when you lift it is largely predictable ( long before you think you "decide").

I was making a point. You're not a bot. You're a person that is choosing to have this conversation.

God knowing what everyone will do does not rob us of the ability to make the choice. The two are not mutually exclusive. I can choose to override my initial decision and it is my choice to do so, it just so happens that an extra-dimensional super being (God) knows what I will inevitably choose to do.

No, if your decisions are accurately known beforehand, they are predetermined and that can never be free will. This makes choice an illusion and is consistent with determinism. It's just that you add an extra element behind the forces of nature (a super intelligence). So ultimately in this scenario, everything is determined by a super intelligence.

Unfathomable intelligence that so happens to also be my loving Parent.

Fair enough.

Free will: not being obstructed or coerced in the things you do, souvereignity, independent. Are you destined for love or evil?

originally posted by: AlienView
Give one reason, any reason, for the occurrence of biological life in a universe that shows no signs of organic life in its infrastructure.

Please don't take the easy way out and say random chance occurrence - Unless you can show how a random chance occurrence can produce
an organic life form that can breathe and reproduce,

Let me make clear this is a 'I want to know' post - I have no particular agenda and am not trying to advocate a Creationist or Evolutionary viewpoint.

So please use facts and not wishfull thinking.

If you start with a physical Universe that does not have biological or organic lfe in it - What are the odds of living, breathing, breeding
biological life forms occurring

maybe it's not as inorganic as some think,

i think the odds are good since there is no proof of either.

originally posted by: Quintilian

Also the choices that other people make...which can include the time before they were born...

That's not free will.

That's why a big portion of the ethical law includes treating others with respect, because if you choose to be a tyrant/a-hole with your free will that certainly will impact other free willed people and even limit their opportunity.

So now only some people have "free will"?

Free will comes with conscious
Unconscious people cannot choose to do anything

Our universe propagates in only three ways that we know of. Deterministic (where outcomes are determined by prior causal chain), random (where outcomes can't be predicted even in principle), or a mixture of the two.If it's determined it can't be freely willed. Nor if it's random.

Free will decisions are part of the cause and effect feedback system

No, if your decisions are accurately known beforehand, they are predetermined and that can never be free will.

Why would a Being that knows all of time and the outcome of time have any effect on the ability to choose for the inhabitants of time?

originally posted by: Untun
Free will: not being obstructed or coerced in the things you do, souvereignity, independent. Are you destined for love or evil?

The idea that not being coerced equates to free will assumes that such a thing can exist to begin with (without coercion).

What it boils down to is the belief that in any given situation you actually had a genuine choice and "could have done differently". The idea that for any choice or decision someone makes, if we could replay the universe with everything being exactly the same, the outcome could be different. There is no reason to believe that. Much less because of some mysterious substance or quality that no one seems capable of defining or explaining (scientifically), or demonstrating, known as "free will".

We are made of matter (including our nervous system) and the principles of matter still apply. We are predictable (at least in principle). The only way a different outcome would be possible is if there is a genuine random component to matter and the way the universe propagates. Yet randomness doesn't allow for free will either (it makes it impossible).

The normal objection to this usually amounts to an appeal to emotion or an "appeal to adverse consequences" fallacy. The idea that without free will, no one could be responsible for all of the harm or good that they accomplish. This is more illogical nonsense. People most definitely are responsible for their choices, "free will" or not. If you present a threat to people, they will take action to remove such threat. Been that way since humans formed societies (and happens with other species).

It would be like saying you wouldn't ground an unsafe plane because it didn't have "free will". You most definitely would and you wouldn't let it fly until it was safe.

It doesn't rule out the idea of praise or punishment either. These things are necessary behavioural modifiers. Similar to introducing another input into a system to change/bias the output.

What it does do is remove the idea of moral responsibility. Us humans aren't giving that up any time soon, as it justifies our hatred (which seems quite natural to us as a species). Einstein noted that this observation allowed him to be far more compassionate and forgiving of people.

It's strangely consistent with the compassion that Christ taught also, as in "to love your enemies" and "forgive them father for they know not what they do".

It seems strange to hear even rational atheists clinging to the idea of human "free will". The idea that humans alone are above the rules and principles that bind the matter they are made of is definitely a paranormal belief.

I don't believe in the idea of a magical "soul" in any religious sense. But I see this argument from religious people being least far more honest. That's what it would require (though I think there are huge problems even with that).

Randomness implies a plan set in stone. Besides we being physical we are made out of a compound of life, a tangible source of predetermined destinies no matter how far you drive the snake up on the stick. Life makes its ways.

a reply to: Quintilian