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Beyond A Reasonable Doubt - Part Four

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posted on Mar, 17 2005 @ 09:33 PM
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For Part 3 - www.belowtopsecret.com...

Witness #4 - Christian pastor


Pastor swears on bible....


Prosocuting Attorney: "Pastor, have you ever seen a man.......walk on water?"

Pastor Fred Smith: "No, I haven't but I know it has been done"

Prosocuting Attorney: "You know it has been done. How do you know this?"

Pastor Fred Smith: "Why because the bible says it does."

Prosocuting Attorney: "Who in particular walked on water?"

Pastor Fred Smith: "Jesus did of course....."

Prosocuting Attorney: "I would like to present the witness with this peice of evidece." (provides scientific documents proving that a man cannot walk on water not that common sense didnt scream that out to you already) What do you think this means pastor?"

Pastor Fred Smith: "I suppose it means that you are going a secular man trying to prove to me that Jesus did not walk on water."

Judge: "ORDER! OR be held in contempt!"
(Audience disturbed and restless)

Prosocuting Attorney: "I will ask it again, what does this document say?"

Pastor Fred Smith: "It says a man cannot walk on water. But I am not fooled by your secular science books and documents."

Prosocuting Attorney: "Pastor, is it possible that jesus do not walk on water as described in the bible?"

Pastor Fred Smith: "Son, the bible does not lie. It is the word of God! My handy dandy KJV 1611 has all the answers I need."

Prosocuting Attorney: "Was Jesus a human being?"

Pastor Fred Smith: "Yes, he was the son of God came to earth as man."

Prosocuting Attorney: "Are you a man?"

Pastor Fred Smith: "Yes, I am a man."

Prosocuting Attorney: "Without the use of floatation devices, could you walk on water as described in the bible?"

Pastor Fred Smith: "No, I could not. Jesus was the son of God!"

Prosocuting Attorney: "Why can you not walk on water Pastor?"

Pastor Fred Smith: "Because I am too heavy I suppose."

Prosocuting Attorney: "Actually, it is because you are more dense.....no pun intended, well maybe. Anyway, your body is more dense than the water, so you sink. Was jesus' body less dense than the water?"

Pastor Fred Smith: "Jesus was man just like you and me son, GREAT GOD IN HEAVEN!!!!!"

Prosocuting Attorney: "That does not answer the question. Please try to stick to answering the questions. Does that mean Jesus was less dense than water?"

Pastor Fred Smith: "Jesus was just as dense as any other man."

Prosocuting Attorney: "So lets recap on what we have learne3d form you pastor. First, Jesus walked on water. You know this because the bible tells you. The bible must be right because it is the word of God according to you. What if you were wrong about any of that?"

Pastor Fred Smith: "Son, I am not wrong about the Lord. He is here with me now. I am saved, are you?"

Prosocuting Attorney: "Ok, whatever you say. Now continuing on here. You say the bible cannot be wrong and it is the word of God. Now, in Exudus, the bible says that a few people saw god, face to face. As a man would look upon his brother. Do you recall this?"

Pastor Fred Smith: "Yes of course I do."

Prosocuting Attorney: "I suppose that you then also know that in the new testament, the gospel of John states a few times that you cannot see the face of god and live. Did Jacob and Abraham see the face of God and live?"

Pastor Fred Smith: "No, the did not actually see the face of God. They would have been overwhelmed."

Prosocuting Attorney: "I see, so then there must be a bible verse that tells us that they did not see the actual face of God, correct?"

Pastor Fred Smith: "Well, no."

Prosocuting Attorney: "So does that mean, pastor, that you simply believe that no man can see the face of god and live?"

Pastor Fred Smith: "I know it."

Prosocuting Attorney: "So then when the bible describes men seeing god "face to face", it was incorrect?"

Pastor Fred Smith: "That is not what it meant."

Prosocuting Attorney: "Says who?"

Pastor Fred Smith: "Listen sir, I do not have to listen to you berate my beliefs and the bible. The bible is the word of God!?

Prosocuting Attorney: "Answer the Question! Who tells you that man did not see the face of God!?!?!"

Pastor Fred Smith: "You do not know how to re"

Prosocuting Attorney: "ANSWER THE QUESTION!!!!!" WHO SAYS THAT THE VERSES WERE NOT LITERAL!?"

Pastor Fred Smith: "Noone actually says it.....are you happy?"

Prosocuting Attorney: "Thank you, yes, I am happy. So, since noone actually says it, would we be safe in saying the bible is incorrect in saying they saw him face to face?"

Pastor Fred Smith: "I cannot answer that question."

Judge: "Pastor, answer the question right now or be held in contempt of court."

Pastor Fred Smith: " It could be a translation error, but yes, it seems as if the bible may be incorrect then."

Prosocuting Attorney: "So, you just said that it is incorrect. You said above that it is the word of god. DOes that mean that the word of God is incorrect on occasion?"

Pastor Fred Smith: "Absolutely not!!!"

Prosocuting Attorney: "When the bible says a man walked on water, it contradicts every peice of sceintific evidence we could possibly obtain for issues such as this. Is it possible that jesus actually did not walk on water?"

Pastor Fred Smith: "Jesus did walk on water!"

Prosocuting Attorney: "IS IT POSSIBLE THAT HE DID NOT, IS IT POSSIBLE!!! YOU ARE UNDER OATH!!!!!"

Pastor Fred Smith (Very long pause, his face is very red): " Yes, it is "possible"."

Prosocuting Attorney: "So when you speak of this occurance in church on your pulpit, you are spreading information that you yourself knows may be incorrect, do I understand correctly?"

Pastor Fred Smith: "Son I believe it, we believe it."

Prosocuting Attorney: "But you could be incorrect?"

Pastor Fred Smith: "Yes, I could be incorrect."

Prosocuting Attorney: "Now, like I said earlier, we have a mountain of scientific evidence to the contrary. Why is it, that you choose to believe in the stories you read in this book, when there is evidence against them, and there is a possibilty that they are fabricated?"

Pastor Fred Smith: "I suppose the answer to that is because I want to."

Prosocuting Attorney: "You spread information that you know may be false as fact, because you want to. No further questions."

Judge: "Defense, your witness."

Defense Attorney: "Pastor, do you intend to misleed your people?"

Pastor Fred Smith: "Absolutely not!"

Defense Attorney: "Do you feel that you do the best job that you can while spreading the word of god?"

Pastor Fred Smith: "Yes, yes I do."

Defense Attorney: "No further Questions."




posted on Mar, 17 2005 @ 11:11 PM
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I don't know about this guy, but I believe that Jesus could walk on water because of the power of God. He's the son of God, he could perform miracles. He wasn't just an ordinary man. And you know what also defies the laws of science? Something coming out of nothing! But the earth WAS created right? The universe had to get here some way, right? How did it get here? At one time or another, something came from nothing. Oh, but I guess that us humans already have EVERY THING FIGURED OUT, so I guess that means teh universe doesn't exist, because our laws dictate that something can't come from nothing.

I think that's the difference between athiests and Christians. As I christian, I'm willing to humble myself and accept that there may just be something that is vastly more intelligent than I! I'm willing to accept that we don't have every little thing figured out about our universe, and that we may never know. Think about it.



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 08:59 AM
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These posts are really sad. First of all they disprove nothing, they merely state that one cannot be certain either way. Secondly Jesus is God in human form, God created the Universe, I doubt he'd have much trouble breaking the laws of Physics (which he created might I add). Jesus performed miracles - the sole reason they are called miracles is because they go against what is thought possible.



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 09:16 AM
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Simon, real quick question.

Have you evere saw a man walk on water..without help of a floatation device? Just as described in the bible?

And by the way. I am not trying to disprove anything. I am only in the process of accurately showing a typical christians mindset (which includes yours).



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 09:43 AM
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Originally posted by Herman
I think that's the difference between athiests and Christians. As I christian, I'm willing to humble myself and accept that there may just be something that is vastly more intelligent than I! I'm willing to accept that we don't have every little thing figured out about our universe, and that we may never know. Think about it.


What you just described is being an agnostic, not a Christian. If you're "willing to accept that we don't have every little thing figured out about our universe, and that we may never know" then you don't have all the answers and are an agnostic.... an abomination to Christianity as a matter of fact.

If you're Christian, you do claim to have figured it all out and have all the answers. Now you think about that.

And to the extent you were talking about Atheists, not agnostics... there's a fallacy there too. An honest atheist is actually asserting "God" is irrelevant... not that He doesn't literally exist. His existence is unknowable... equally to the Atheist, the Agnostic, AND the Christian...

The only difference is the Christian CLAIMS to know God. As to whether that claim is a lie or not is a matter of perspective. But it is what's described as "bad faith." That's not a biased statement either.

An Atheist claiming he knows there's no God is acting in as much "bad faith" as a Christian claiming he knows there is a God.

The only truly "humble" (your word) perspective is agnosticism (though an Atheist may still logically claim God is irrelevant). Now that doesn't mean you can't study, admire, even practice Religions. But there's a fine, fine line of bad faith crossed by almost all.

The singular one out of ALL religions that crosses that line in fundamental princliple is Christianity. Not even it's closest cousin Islam claims to have God walking around in human form that you MUST ACCEPT as knowledge of and the singular way to God through the concept of "salvation."

That's beyond even the discussion of "humility." It's... no words.

It's anti-investigation, anti-knowledge, anti-humility, anti-everything. It is pride incarnate. It's Truthism with a capital T. All based on bad faith.



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 10:14 AM
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Actually, what I used to learn in church was that we WON'T ever know everything there is to know. We know what we know through the bible, but there is more to God than what he describes in the bible. He is infinately more intelligent than us. His intelligence is beyond our comprehension. That's why the creation of the universe is such a mystery. Something coming from nothing. Something can't come from nothing....but it happened. I'm also not an agnostic because I do believe in the story of Jesus Christ. I would hope that that's not the only way to salvation, but that is the story. I just find it very hard to believe that God would send his own creations to eternal torture because they didn't believe in Jesus. But yes, I do accept Jesus as the way to heaven. I'm not sure if it's the only way, but definately a way.



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 12:07 PM
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Herman, have you ever actually seen god?



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 12:28 PM
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Originally posted by Herman
That's why the creation of the universe is such a mystery. Something coming from nothing. Something can't come from nothing....but it happened.

So, reason with me here. How did something come from nothing?


I just find it very hard to believe that God would send his own creations to eternal torture because they didn't believe in Jesus.

Now you just ventured out of the godly realms of christianity. I agree with you that any God wouldnt want his other creations to torture in hell. But thats not the attitude of mainstream christianity is it?



I'm not sure if it's the only way, but definately a way.

If only everyone felt that way........... Atleast its a begining to a world of peace.



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 12:47 PM
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Originally posted by RANT
If you're Christian, you do claim to have figured it all out and have all the answers. Now you think about that.

Is this some kind of circular logic?

'if . . .' Come on, you're just guessing what you think a Christian should believe and not believe.

I don't know one Christian that claims to have it ALL figured out. I know many that claim it isn't important to know EVERYTHING.

Did you make up that statement (as fact) or are you passing it along? Doesn't matter, it is opinion anyway.



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 12:58 PM
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Originally posted by Seapeople
Herman, have you ever actually seen god?


I've never seen you. I'm not sure that you exist. Sure I've read some things that you've written, but I've never heard your voice, seen you smile, or heard of anyone saying that they've actually seen you. You are probably just a figure made up to make us argue about the Bible. You don't exist. If you do then prove it. Reveal yourself to me. What you expect me to accept something you wrote as proof you exist. Hmmm... this sounds famaliar.



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 01:03 PM
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And dbates shows why I have to continuously insult him time and time again. Your lack of intellect is actually startling.

You might also want to wait for herman to answer the question.

Dbates, all for you. Have you ever walked on water? Have you seen anyone do it Before? Enlighten us oh wise one.... I swear, this is like talking to a whole bunch of walls. I am sure though, that walls would have a better ability to comprehend reality.



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 01:35 PM
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Originally posted by Seapeople
And dbates shows why I have to continuously insult him time and time again.


But your insults show you care


No, I've never seen or done any of the things that you are talking about. What you are having a hard time grasping is the concept of faith. You know, believing in something that you don't have proof of. Another huge gap in your theory is that you're trying to use the scientific method to explain spiritual things. I'll oblige you and try my best.

I've seen the Earth, stars, the moon. I watch the sunrise and set each day. (Weather permitting) I've seen animals that have amazing complexity. I've taken note on how the Earth is positioned in just the perfect place in our solar system and galaxy. What more proof do I need that there is divine interference in my life?

If you want something odd, I have heard an audible voice call my name when no one else was there. This probably saved my life as the little gap I was about to try to jump across turned out to be the beginning of a small cave and it was over 50 feet down to the bottom.

I've seen a blind man receive his sight. I have no reason to doubt his claim that he was blind, and he sure could see well afterwords.

Other than that there's no Oooh Ahhh stuff I can point out to you.



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 01:42 PM
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Originally posted by dbates

Originally posted by Seapeople
And dbates shows why I have to continuously insult him time and time again.


But your insults show you care


No, I've never seen or done any of the things that you are talking about. What you are having a hard time grasping is the concept of faith. You know, believing in something that you don't have proof of. Another huge gap in your theory is that you're trying to use the scientific method to explain spiritual things. I'll oblige you and try my best.

I've seen the Earth, stars, the moon. I watch the sunrise and set each day. (Weather permitting) I've seen animals that have amazing complexity. I've taken note on how the Earth is positioned in just the perfect place in our solar system and galaxy. What more proof do I need that there is divine interference in my life?

If you want something odd, I have heard an audible voice call my name when no one else was there. This probably saved my life as the little gap I was about to try to jump across turned out to be the beginning of a small cave and it was over 50 feet down to the bottom.

I've seen a blind man receive his sight. I have no reason to doubt his claim that he was blind, and he sure could see well afterwords.

Other than that there's no Oooh Ahhh stuff I can point out to you.



So how do you equate the Ooh Aah stuff to the existence of God? Dont you think that a bit of a big Leap? Like the one in the matrix?



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 01:50 PM
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It's based purely on what I've studied. It's not from any Oohh Ahh experience. It's faith pure and simple. I do have doubts at times, but whenever I try to disprove my faith it works the opposite. I gain more. If that's all this is about then you win. I can't show you anything to prove my faith aside from the Bible.

I'll go way out on a limb here and gurantee you the proof you are seeking within 2 years. But then you may not believe it even when you see it or read about it. I would explain further, but you need faith to venture there.

EDIT: Okay, sticking my neck waaaay out here. (Get your axe ready)
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I can only show you the possibility, it's up to you if you believe.

[edit on 18-3-2005 by dbates]



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 01:53 PM
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Dude i'm not gonna ask you to prove your personal faith.
As far as the cool stuff you mentioned above, well that doesnt prove the existence of god. Does that mean i'm gonna bash you cuz you have faith? NO!
I just feel its unfair when everyone eqautes simple co-incidences to the existence of God. Thats all.



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 01:57 PM
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No, don't go off of anything I say. Your faith, (there or not) should be based on your personal experieces and what YOU have read. Any other way and it wouldn't be real.



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 03:19 PM
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Originally posted by Seapeople
Herman, have you ever actually seen god?


No, I've never seen God. I believe what I do because of the things I've seen and read. I've not been brainwashed by any pastor; in fact, I don't even go to church very often. I've come to my beliefs through my own experiences. Now let me ask you a question:

Do you think that we've advanced (scientifically) as far as we'll ever advance?



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 03:34 PM
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Originally posted by JoeDoaks

Originally posted by RANT
If you're Christian, you do claim to have figured it all out and have all the answers. Now you think about that.

Is this some kind of circular logic?

'if . . .' Come on, you're just guessing what you think a Christian should believe and not believe.

I don't know one Christian that claims to have it ALL figured out. I know many that claim it isn't important to know EVERYTHING.

Did you make up that statement (as fact) or are you passing it along? Doesn't matter, it is opinion anyway.


The rest of the post explained it. It's quite simple really, as I wasn't saying Christians claim to be omniscient, but they do claim to know the cause of everything.

God. It's a word used to fill in the blank for all the mysteries of life. And that is the circular logic friend.

What was in the beginning? God. How do you know? He's the Alpha and Omega. What's the Alpha and Omega? God. On and on...

It's a presumption to know everything through God/Christ. And those "hybrids" like Herman may still call themselves Christian... but I'm sorry to say they aren't actually practicing Christianity.

But to the point I made earlier Christ is EVERYTHING in Christianity, so it is a statement of knowledge. To know it all. To have all the answers. Actually to dismiss all the questions is the best way to frame it. That's why it's so anti-everything else. "You don't need to know, just know Christ."

To clarify this further as to who is the "know it all"...

The honest Atheist concedes there may well be a God, but He's irrelevant.

Agnostics concede they have no idea.

Christians, however, claim to know God as a man that lived a couple thousand years ago, and they are of no possible open mind to any alternative whatsoever.

Dogma is a closed system. It accepts no input. It knows all it cares to. It "knows it all."



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 04:40 PM
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Rant:

Christians do not claim to know all. Yes, we know how the universe was created. It was created by God. What we do not claim to know is HOW God came to be. That's above our conprehension. I do belive that God created the universe. Also, all you really need to believe in order to be labeled a Christian is the death and resurrection of Christ. That Christ is our savior, and we accept him as such. We believe we can get to heaven through Jesus. That's what makes me a Christian. Christ. Where I branch off is where I'm not sure if people who don't believe in Jesus go to Hell. I certainly hope not. I would hope that all of us get to go to heaven, or are at least given the fair chance. I think the only people who don't go to heaven should be...the people who honestly do not want to.



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 04:45 PM
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Originally posted by RANT
Dogma is a closed system. It accepts no input. It knows all it cares to. It "knows it all."

Perhaps so, I don't see dogma as that definitive.

Thanks for explaining your point. I admit that I missed it.

Dogma is something that could be arguable depending on perception. Refering to Christianity, while (granted) much is accepted as fact and not arguable, much in Christianity is still subject to not only debate but differences. So, to use your definition then Christianity is would not be dogmatic?

Of course I realize that isn't your thrust. Christianity (in the main) is dogmatic. Much is accepted without proof- either the need for or the absence of.

Myself, I have no problem accepting Christianity. You on the other hand may. Because of my 'dogma' I believe you are mistaken if I am indeed correct in my presumption.

One need only realize the continual debates raged relating to the Book of Revelations to realize Christianity is not a closed system unable or unwilling to accept different points of view. Baptists and Pentecostals have strong differences yet neither rails against the other.

While much in Christianity is 'cut and dried,' all of it is not because of our (mankind) lack of understanding. As intelligent as we think we are, it is more than just a possibility there is something superior to us.

.

.





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