Beyond A Reasonable Doubt - Part Four

Originally posted by Seapeople
Simon, real quick question.

Have you evere saw a man walk on water..without help of a floatation device? Just as described in the bible?

And by the way. I am not trying to disprove anything. I am only in the process of accurately showing a typical christians mindset (which includes yours).

I have never seen a man walk on water without the help of a flotation device. I've also never seen a man bowl a perfect game - but I'm sure it's possible.

I have a few questions of my own;

Is it possible that Jesus was God in human form?

If so and taking into account the fact that God created the entire Universe - wouldn't it then be possible that Jesus could walk on water?

He's God, God is omnipotent, there is nothing he can't do.

Originally posted by Simon_the_byron
Is it possible that Jesus was God in human form?

If so and taking into account the fact that God created the entire Universe - wouldn't it then be possible that Jesus could walk on water?

He's God, God is omnipotent, there is nothing he can't do.

Even if Jesus was not God-

God could have:
made it possible in ways we can't imagine,
(a storm, remember) frozen the water,
placed fishes under his feet,

God took Elijah (2K, 2:11) directly to heaven. Walking on water for the son of God would be a breeze.

Originally posted by dbates
EDIT: Okay, sticking my neck waaaay out here. (Get your axe ready)
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I can only show you the possibility, it's up to you if you believe.

That pesky Solana. Me dont think he's so straight wrapping his arm around guys like that. Yuck.
2 years is not a bad time frame. Atleast we can prove/disprove your prophecy.
*looks at her watch impatiently*

Joedoaks,

I live near pittsburgh pennslyvania. About 40 miles north of me there is a place called conneat lake park. A part of the lakes is called "The Spillway". I am sure you could find it online. In anycase, it is a place where water spills over a damn into a river. At the top of this dame there is some fencing to keep the fish from going over the damn. Basically, all the food is sucked through there. Also, around this spill way, is severl places to buy fish pellets.

The result of what I have described above is quite possibly the most amazing, and yet disgusting thing I have ever seen in my life. Fish, carp to be precise, pile on top of each other in a massive feeding frenzy. Hundreds of thousands of them in a giant mess. Truly it is something to see.

We bet a freind of mine several years ago to TRY TO WALK ON IT. Let me just say that he had quite a disgusting experince. Luckily the water was only a few feet deep where he climbed in, because if he went under, I am sure he wouldn't have made it back to the surface.

Point is that you would not be able to walk on fish.

Now, to my second point. PEOPLE WALK ACROSS FROZEN LAKES ALL THE TIME!!!! I have done it myself, what kind of idiot to you take us for? We don't call that a miracle. We call that winter in most places. I swear, you christians never cease to amaze me with your absolutely ignorant and foolish ideas.

Furthermore the bible does not say: "Jesus walked across the water but it was really because of fish". The bible does not say: "Jesus walked across the water because it was frozen". The bible says that he walked across the water. The fact that you made up these stupid ideas is only an indication of how well you as well as others think things through. Furthermore, by doing so you are changing the words of the bible. SOmething that the bible itself strictly prohibits. Also, coincedentally, it is something THAT ALL CHRISTIANS DO.

Even if jesus was not god, those things still would have been reported differently in the bible.

[edit on 3/19/2005 by Seapeople]

Seapeople: JoeDoaks wasn't saying that this is what DID happen. He's saying that if Jesus wasn't the son of God, God still could have found ways to make this happen.

[edit on 19-3-2005 by Herman]

Originally posted by Seapeople
The fact that you made up these stupid ideas is only an indication of how well you as well as others think things through. Furthermore, by doing so you are changing the words of the bible. SOmething that the bible itself strictly prohibits. Also, coincedentally, it is something THAT ALL CHRISTIANS DO.

Even if jesus was not god, those things still would have been reported differently in the bible.

Stupid ideas? Nothing stupid about giving some 'what ifs'

Point is YOU and no one else knows or can explain what Jesus did- this causes people concern. People want answers to everything. People don't like not knowing.

No big thing-

Do you know how a jet engine works? (no cheating- don't use Google)

Of course you don't. But you do know it works.

Can you see or feel the 'stuff' that makes your TV or radio work?

Of course not.

Back to your 'fish story' Seapeople
This guy you describe (you rigtht?) had no belief. He didn't know how to 'still the fishes.' Go to a zoo sometime and watch an animal trainer. Now when everyone is gone, hop into the lion's den . . .

See how this works?

It's easy to come up with 'what if' this or that. Like the story earlier about the pastor on the witness stand, what was with that story? Was it meant to enlighten or denigrate?

stories that are meant to portray a truth or instruct have value. Do those meant to insult?

How say you?
.

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Originally posted by JoeDoaks
Do you know how a jet engine works? (no cheating- don't use Google)

Of course you don't. But you do know it works.

Actually thats faulty argument there. The fact that you can google it and verify it with your own eyes makes it credible enough. Its irrelevant if you know it or not. Its there to verify when you need it. You cant say that about walking on water.

Can you see or feel the 'stuff' that makes your TV or radio work?
Of course not.

Try putting your hand in the outlet. Um...I bet you'll feel it. So you'd KNOW by EXPERIENCE...that its there. And you can reproduce that experiment at will( If you're alive).

Originally posted by I_s_i_s

Originally posted by JoeDoaks
Do you know how a jet engine works? (no cheating- don't use Google)

Of course you don't. But you do know it works.

Actually thats faulty argument there. The fact that you can google it and verify it with your own eyes makes it credible enough. Its irrelevant if you know it or not. Its there to verify when you need it. You cant say that about walking on water.

Faulty? Perhaps- it was just an example. Many things in life we accept as 'given.' We aren't interested enough in them to become expert at them. Read on jet engines and gain a basic understanding of them. To really understand one a person would need to work on them and gain knowledge of their undocumented attributes or perhaps be able to recognize idiosyncrasies of a few of them. What conditions arise to cause one to overspeed, to stall, etc.?

This was not my point, however. The point was many things exist and work without our understanding of why. We accept them because we want to.

As to credibility- how much 'proof' is needed? There is a rather fanciful explanation of the Great Pyramid being nothing more than an enormous water pump on the Internet. Is that proof?

Can you see or feel the 'stuff' that makes your TV or radio work?
Of course not.

Try putting your hand in the outlet. Um...I bet you'll feel it. So you'd KNOW by EXPERIENCE...that its there. And you can reproduce that experiment at will( If you're alive).

All this informs you of is electricity- as with a toaster or hair dryer. Can you feel the 'other stuff?' The radio waves?

No outlet to stick your finger in. Let's stick with a battery powered radio for a moment.

Where do the sounds come from?
How do you know this?
Can you see them or feel them?

Many things are accepted as we are told they work or don't work. Most we never question but accept at face value. To the spillway/wannabe fish walker- things clearly did not work for him.

Experience- ? another form of learning.
.

.

These antichristian threads posted by this guy are merely his exosition of what is on his inside. They have nothing to do with truth

Originally posted by I_s_i_s
The fact that you can google it and verify it with your own eyes makes it credible enough. Its irrelevant if you know it or not. Its there to verify when you need it. You cant say that about walking on water.

Actually yes, you can. It's all in the bible, just as working on a jet engine would be in some kind of manual.

Originally posted by Herman
It's all in the bible, just as working on a jet engine would be in some kind of manual.

Posts like this make me wish I had not used my WATS for the month.

Clear, simple and concise

Originally posted by JoeDoaks
As to credibility- how much 'proof' is needed? There is a rather fanciful explanation of the Great Pyramid being nothing more than an enormous water pump on the Internet. Is that proof?

See I compare that kind of a shabby source to the bible. The schematis of a "jet engine" can be verified by credible sources. More interestingly, it can be verified by MULTIPLE credible sources.

All this informs you of is electricity- as with a toaster or hair dryer. Can you feel the 'other stuff?' The radio waves?

No outlet to stick your finger in. Let's stick with a battery powered radio for a moment.

Can I feel the other stuff? Do I need to? I can verify its there by doing various experiments that I CAN feel. Or HEAR.
Batteries. Yea I CAN SEE THEM! I can tell you HOW THEY WORK.

Many things are accepted as we are told they work or don't work. Most we never question but accept at face value.

Extremely good point Joe. THATs the problem that I find with people who blindly believe in ancient books written by men with limited knowledge. Sure, like you mentioned there are things we cannot see or feel, but to dismiss them and give up instead of trying your best to verify them is ...well...sad. We're explaining away things today that 100 years ago were thought impossible to explain. If the people 100 years ago gave up and said, well folks...we cant explain it so lets roll up in a ball and die.

Originally posted by jake1997
These antichristian threads posted by this guy are merely his exosition of what is on his inside. They have nothing to do with truth

Jake I'm not a Mod. But please dont say nonsensical things that do nothing to contribute to the topic of this thread. Try not posting if you have nothing relevant to say.

Originally posted by Herman

Actually yes, you can. It's all in the bible, just as working on a jet engine would be in some kind of manual.

My dear Herman, do you understand the difference between a biography and a manual?
Here try this. Go to amazon.com. Find a biography of a person and the things they did. Find a manual on electronic circuitry. You see the difference?
Too bad Joe for WATS. Next time eh?

I was going to try for a bit of a discourse- however, after reading the pontifications, I can surmise it would be fruitless.

There are a great many things written by ancient and ignorant people that were valid at the time and are still valid.

In Ancient Egypt using pictures (for whatever reason) there are records regarding the elements, migrations, other peoples and places and beliefs. These writings were lost to modern man until an accidental discovery was made.

Emory Univ.
This clue was the Rosetta Stone -- a monumental "thank you" to the pharaoh from the Egyptian priests in 196 B.C. The Rosetta Stone was written in three scripts -- hieroglyphs, demotic, and ancient Greek. By translating the Greek part, scholars were able to crack the hieroglyphic code.

1,700+ years BC laws were written by ancient and ignorant people. These laws were the basis for civilization in much of the middle-east for untold centuries.

WSU
When Anu the Sublime, King of the Anunaki, and Bel, the lord of Heaven and earth, who decreed the fate of the land, assigned to Marduk, the over-ruling son of Ea, God of righteousness, dominion over earthly man, and made him great among the Igigi, they called Babylon by his illustrious name, made it great on earth, and founded an everlasting kingdom in it, whose foundations are laid so solidly as those of heaven and earth; then Anu and Bel called by name me, Hammurabi, the exalted prince, who feared God, to bring about the rule of righteousness in the land, to destroy the wicked and the evil-doers; so that the strong should not harm the weak; so that I should rule over the black-headed people like Shamash, and enlighten the land, to further the well-being of mankind.

Hundreds, perhaps thousands, or other examples exist of ancient peoples that would be considered ignorant viewed from today's perspective. All of these refute what points and the direction of your postings I_s_i.

Where do you 'get off' spouting what others post is lesser than what you post? You certainly don't believe you have any divine spark so is it just a need to antagonize people?

I_s_i_s said I compare that kind of shabby source . . .

Sure. It was an example many people can't deal with.

I_s_i_s said Can I feel the other stuff? Do I need to? I can verify its there by doing various experiments . . .

Exactly again. Experiments could be done but aren't. The switch is turned on and it works. Other than 'testing' the power source one can't touch or feel the things (radio waves) that make it a radio and not a toaster.

I_s_i your comment to jake what was that? You refer to Solano in another post and deride someone for referring to someone other than you? Astounding.

Ahh, and the back handed slap to Herman. So there 'ya go- everyone that didn't stand up and salute is slammed. People can be as wrong as they like or as right as they are able.

Next time for WATS? I'll remember Herman and get him next month.

I_s_i, I don't think you and I will ever be on that bridge together. Now if I ever decide to drop on down into the realm of darkness- hey we might just meet up.
.

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Originally posted by I_s_i_s
Actually yes, you can. It's all in the bible, just as working on a jet engine would be in some kind of manual.

My dear Herman, do you understand the difference between a biography and a manual?
Here try this. Go to amazon.com. Find a biography of a person and the things they did. Find a manual on electronic circuitry. You see the difference?
Too bad Joe for WATS. Next time eh?

Actually, I prefer to look at the bible more as a history book. When you read in a text book that the Egyptians built the pyramids, you believe that as being true, don't you? When you read that George Washington was the first president of the United States, you believe that right? It's harder to verify the bible because it was written so long ago, but so were the times of the cave man. When you read in a history book about things that the sumarians did, or kings of Egypt, it's factual to you. Now I'm not saying that this is the only basis for my faith; it's not. It's these facts combined with things I've experienced in my own life. That's why I choose to believe the bible I believe just like I believe things I hear about the Sumarians or George Washington.

Posted by i_s_i_s: I compare that kind of a shabby source to the bible. The schematis of a "jet engine" can be verified by credible sources. More interestingly, it can be verified by MULTIPLE credible sources.

Your analogy is somewhat unfair. The events that happened in the bible were so long ago, that any eye-witnesses are long since dead! What if 2,000 years from now, people were doubting that airplanes ever existed. Someone shows them a jet-manual, and they just brush it off as nothing because there's nobody around to show them that it really did work.

I'm not trying to convert you, I'm just showing you that the events transcribed in the bible ARE possibly true, whether you choose to believe in them or not is entirely up to you. But it's wrong to go around making theads like this one trying to disprove Christianity as a whole based on a faulty argument.

And jake's comment was relative to this thread. He was talking about Seapeople's original post.

Ah JoeDoaks, where do I begin? Since you're saving me a discourse i'll do the same.

Originally posted by JoeDoaks

There are a great many things written by ancient and ignorant people that were valid at the time and are still valid.

I did not ONCE use the word "ignorant". I said "ancient men with LIMITED KNOWLEDGE" See, there's a difference. Ok glad we got that cleared out.

In Ancient Egypt using pictures (for whatever reason) there are records regarding the elements, migrations, other peoples and places and beliefs. These writings were lost to modern man until an accidental discovery was made.

Yes I'm aware of that. I missed the good fortune of actually seeing the rosetta stone. But I digress. Whats your point here Joe? I believe that the ancient egyptians were very well educated in mathematics and architecture. I give a lot of credit for that. Does that mean I have to believe in their "mythology"? If anything in the bible shows me of how mathematically advanced the people were then maybe I'd think twice about my opinions(mythology doesnt count).

Hundreds, perhaps thousands, or other examples exist of ancient peoples that would be considered ignorant viewed from today's perspective. All of these refute what points and the direction of your postings I_s_i.

I'm sorry, I still dont get your point. Maybe I need to hear that discourse.
How exactly does this refute my point? I would like to know if you really understand my point. Hundreds and thousands of ancient peoples definately contributed to our knowledge in several different fields. One of them is called "HISTORY" I dont think an archeaologist would take the "mythology" part seriously.

Where do you 'get off' spouting what others post is lesser than what you post? You certainly don't believe you have any divine spark so is it just a need to antagonize people?

Again, I think you're reading into my posts a little too much with dislike rather than doing it objectively. I dont believe anyone's points are "lesser'' than mine. Its a logical discussion isnt it? So if i find faulty arguments would I not point it out? Are you offended because of this? Do you not like honest criticism? Joe, I dont feel the need to antagonize people in any way. I dont suffer from insecurity. Neither am I delusional. So thanks for antagonizing me.

Exactly again. Experiments could be done but aren't. The switch is turned on and it works. Other than 'testing' the power source one can't touch or feel the things (radio waves) that make it a radio and not a toaster.

Um..so how do you plan to toast your bread w/o turning it on?So how exactly do you propose we experiment on how to walk on water?

I_s_i your comment to jake what was that? You refer to Solano in another post and deride someone for referring to someone other than you? Astounding.

Oh Joe, joe... Now you're not being nice. Jake was here spewing nonsense. Refering to a thread as "anti-christian" w/o justifying WHY is just a waste of post space. If you kindly read a few posts earlier to this one, you'll see the posts made by dbates regarding the aspect of "faith". He linked a thread. I read it and aknowledged it. Now thats called "REPLYING" to a post. Not the same as jake you see? If you had cared to read thru his link maybe you'd understand what I was refering to.

Ahh, and the back handed slap to Herman. So there 'ya go- everyone that didn't stand up and salute is slammed. People can be as wrong as they like or as right as they are able.

Joe, I graduated from highschool a few years ago. I dont need to "slam" a person for disagreeing if they're nice about it. There's no such thing as "my team" against "your team" here. If you want to see that kind of show I'd recommend some sports on TV.

I don't think you and I will ever be on that bridge together. Now if I ever decide to drop on down into the realm of darkness- hey we might just meet up.

Thanks for the cheery picture! Shows how kind you really are buddy!


[edit on 20-3-2005 by I_s_i_s]

Originally posted by Herman
Actually, I prefer to look at the bible more as a history book. When you read in a text book that the Egyptians built the pyramids, you believe that as being true, don't you? When you read that George Washington was the first president of the United States, you believe that right? It's harder to verify the bible because it was written so long ago, but so were the times of the cave man. When you read in a history book about things that the sumarians did, or kings of Egypt, it's factual to you. Now I'm not saying that this is the only basis for my faith; it's not. It's these facts combined with things I've experienced in my own life. That's why I choose to believe the bible I believe just like I believe things I hear about the Sumarians or George Washington.

Herman, I have no problem taking the bible as a history book. When I read in a text book that the egyptians built the pyramids it makes sense since there are more than enough reasons to verify that. When I read that George washington was the first president of the U.S. I take it as a fact because we have things that HE wrote, people that ACTUALLY knew him etc. We can trace his lineage down etc etc. I could go on. He's not fictional. He was real as anyone can tell you.
I was watching a show on discovery channel the other day about King Narmer and how he couldve united the upper and the lower eygpt. They deduced that by taking a couple of factors into account. I dont remember exactly. Something to do with his headpiece. Well they could be wrong. I agree with you, the farther you go into history the more hazier it becomes. More clues are requied to piece things together. I'm not questioning your faith. You use the word faith because it cannot be proven. I have no problem with that. Its just that some people out here try to prove things that they take on faith as a fact.

Originally posted by I_s_i_s
I'm not questioning your faith. You use the word faith because it cannot be proven. I have no problem with that. Its just that some people out here try to prove things that they take on faith as a fact.

I'm glad that you respect other people's opinions for what they are, but the original intent of this thread was blatant disrespect of the Christian religion. Seapeople set out to prove that Christianity as a whole is stupid, impossible, and false. He failed. He was not encouraging acceptance, he was encouraging intolerance.

Thanks for the kind words Joe , sorry I didn't address them in my other post. I didn't see them there .