OP/ED: Ending the Dark Days

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
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We have to reject the categorical denial of our 'selves', and more than that, we have to somehow punish those who reinforce the stereotypes.

I believe a better ATS (indeed, a better world, a better humanity) is possible, but it will require an enormous amount of personal effort on the part of the mods and the members. The mods can only do so much without being perceived as squelching free speech, therefore, the burden of action falls largely on us, the members. We have to send clear signals to the partisan weenies that their influence is unacceptable, unwarranted, and will result only in their isolation from the community.

That being said I've used the ignore feature to simply reduce the partisan clutter. I realize this is the lazy way out, but I simply don't have enough hours in the day to dedicate signifigant portions of my time to reading and responding to the same, tired old crap from unrepentant partisans. I realize that this is contrary to denying ignorance in a way, but it is also critical to that idea. If I don't see the weenies, I don't play into their hands. I decided that my ignore list will be a rotating batch of malcontents, rather than a permanent prison. That way, if members reform their ways, I will be able to see their progress and respond positively to it. I would recommend the same strategy to anyone else.

The mods can play a decisive role in this struggle, by doggedly removing threads from ATS that do not belong, and by strong-arming the manipulators into compliance with the agreed upon rules of civil discussion. Perhaps we should simply state that partisanship has no place at ATS - an ultimatum to the partisan weenies to take it outside to PTS or lose their posting priviledges all together. If the admin believes that partisan cliques are ignorant, and fermenting ignorance in other members with their incendiary posts, then their threads should be relegated to the mud pit to prevent their caustic influence from spreading.
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I am really lost now.... You are talking about punishing those who stereotype and insult, yet your own post is full of stereotypes and insults towards those who disagree with you....

You want to isolate, and stop anyone from posting their opinion, if it differs from what "you and others like you think...."

To you the opinion of those who disagree with you are only partisans and do not deserve to be heard....and you will listen to them if, and whenever people only accept your ideas.....

This is just unbelievable........

Maudib - it looks like you're just not "getting it."

Please, go back and read the thread, including SO's posts. ...SO, WO and most of us are talking about "partisanship" - specifically, manufactured partisanship. It is partisanship that WO is denigrating, not disagreement. You need to spend some time trying to understand the discussion before critiquing others' comments.


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Originally posted by Muaddib
I am really lost now.... You are talking about punishing those who stereotype and insult, yet your own post is full of stereotypes and insults towards those who disagree with you....

My insults are targeted specifically at people who continue to flock together and allow others to do their thinking for them. Partisanship is a disease, it's a lazy man's answer to difficult problems. If you feel insulted by my statements that can only mean one thing, perhaps you should identify what part of you 'personality' qualifies for my scorn. If you really and genuinely feel that you are an individual human being with individual opinions and thoughts, then I have no problem with you.

I don't care if people disagree with me! I love it when people agree, sure, but if people disagree in a mature and insightful manner, I can learn more from them than from a legion of dittoers...

Originally posted by Muaddib
You want to isolate, and stop anyone from posting their opinion, if it differs from what "you and others like you think...."

No, I want to isolate and stop from posting those people who act malevolently to erode individuality and herd people into red and blue pens...

Originally posted by Muaddib
To you the opinion of those who disagree with you are only partisans and do not deserve to be heard....and you will listen to them if, and whenever people only accept your ideas.....

This is just unbelievable........

That's absolute BS. I have pleasantly disagreed with many people on this site and in real life. What I do not appreciate, is people like you, who turn everything into a two sided conflict. It's only black and white in your mind Muadibb, except it isn't even your mind anymore...

All your neurons are belong to them...

There is only one other member I have ever seen being so emphatic about "BOTH" sides as if there are two ... you're not a biker in disguise, are you?

That'd be some disguise, hehe... If that were true, I'd have to be on ATS 24/7 for such prolific posting,

Originally posted by Muaddib

You want to isolate, and stop anyone from posting their opinion, if it differs from what "you and others like you think...."

You are completly missing the whole point of the thread and misunderstanding the pertaining post as well. The whole discussion boils down to this: We can all have our own opinions. We just need to realize that other opinions will be different. Those opinions that differ should be respected even though they are not on par with your own. A debate is one thing. But telling someone they are a baby killer because they support Bush is another thing all together. This is what we are trying to put an end to. We have been divided by unseen powers and we are playing blindly into their hand with this polarization.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne

Hoo boy. Where to start? Well, I guess with the original suggestions made by Sofi. I don't think we can make anybody do anything,

Hmm. Wasn't talking about making anyone do anything. ...Just providing information for self-defense against manipulation, that would help "deny ignorance." Joe called it ATS kung-fu-ko. Good name, IMO.

...The research project will help frame the problem and answer the key questions.

Polarization Research

What we want is a humanity (and by proxy an ATS) that can think for itself, without resorting to sound-byte philosophies and pre-fab enemies. We want to be taken seriously as individuals, not lumped in with a group of people that we ourselves may despise. It burns me up every time someone labels me liberal, my political allegiance is granted on an individual basis, the same as my personal allegiances. To suggest otherwise is to question my intelligence, and to question my intelligence is an insult, pure and simple. I respond to insults in kind, against my better judgement, and the perpetual cycle continues.

My position exactly. ...I generally manage to ignore the insults and don't respond - which has it's own negative repercussions...

The labelling is obnoxious, widespread, and it incites a great deal of anger. It is the fault of both sides for engaging in it, and moreover it is the fault of the conspirators for making it so acceptable to de-humanize people. Since we can't stop the conspirators from wanting to play us off each other, we must stop ourselves, and if possible each other, from falling into the two neatly defined categories. We have to reject the categorical denial of our 'selves',

Agreed.

we have to somehow punish those who reinforce the stereotypes.

Which requires a witchhunt - so you wanna know who's on my list?

...IMO - tis better to neutralize the manipulators by describing their tools and methods - and letting everyone decide for themselves if and how they are being manipulated.

We have to send clear signals to the partisan weenies that their influence is unacceptable, unwarranted, and will result only in their isolation from the community.

Exactly.

If we wanted Rush's opinion, or Hannitty's opinion, or O'Reilley's opinion, we would turn on the damn TV. We come to ATS to converse with our fellow human beings, and too often we end up confronting the very visage of slavish stupidity that drove us to the alternative media in the first place. We're trying to get away from mainstream, politically acceptable discourse, not wallow in it.

My thoughts exactly.

How am I supposed to engage in reasonable conversation with people whose heroes are contemporary mouthpieces for the control schemata I so desperately despise? It's frustrating, and difficult, and largely fruitless.

I don't think fruitless. IMO - almost everyone here comes for new information, discussion, and a certain kind of 'intellectual thrill' - to shake up their own paradigm. ...Also IMO - if the manipulators were removed from the equation, then things would be a LOT more exciting around here.

Presenting facts and logical analysis gives men the tools to shape their own beliefs, but it can't give them the will to do so. Badgering with emotionally charged opinion and insults only crystalizes resistance and resentment on the part of the defendant.

Maybe the goal should not be to "change" people? But rather to understand their perspective, and develop an environment and relationships where they are more likely to respect others' opinions, paradigms and experience?

There are quite a few members who are eggregious offenders, and we should try to contain, limit, and cure their disease if possible. They know who they are, you know who they are, so what are we going to do about them?

First of all - I think we need to give them the benefit of the doubt. I am almost certain we have professionals working our crowd but at the same time - a lot of people fall in without conscious purpose. ...So IMO - there's no point going on a witchhunt - we just need to disarm and neutralize the effects by understanding the process and communicating same, in context.

Incentives are required, above and beyond points and titles.

Like what? Concrete suggestions?

We must not allow ourselves to be waylaid by those groups and those individuals who stand to profit from our ignorance and our in-fighting. Whether our enemy is malevolent aliens, greedy bankers, or corporate energy concerns, we must identify the opposition and unite against it. Men have always been in competition against each other for land, resources, and presitge. Perhaps it's inevitable. But maybe, just maybe, the future of human development hinges on finding common ground and standing firm against our innate tendency towards competition.

I'm a huge proponent of evolution. I study it, I love it, I live it. I also see a future where it is no longer necessary to compete with each other. I see a future where competition against the universe unites all mankind.

cooperation is not a luxury, but a necessity for those beings at the mercy of larger forces.

then let's evolve. Let's embrace a common goal, and through that common goal, an allegiance to The Cause, the only meanigful endeavor, the struggle for the survival of the human race.

Good thoughts about competition, like em.

The enemy wishes us to choose sides, fight amongst ourselves, and ignore their hand in all this. We must unite, fight against common enemies, and reveal their manipulations for all the world to see.

I'm sorry if I've simply repeated what others have said.

Summary and synthesis is good. I'd say you've covered all the angles.


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First of all - I think we need to give them the benefit of the doubt. I am almost certain we have professionals working our crowd but at the same time - a lot of people fall in without conscious purpose. ...So IMO - there's no point going on a witchhunt - we just need to disarm and neutralize the effects by understanding the process and communicating same, in context.

Professionals working our crowd?
Without agreeing or disagreeing with you right away, let me just think out loud about the thing you seem certain of.

First of all why would professionals be working our crowd? Are we that important? What motivations could there be for professionals to do that?
Are they just trying to heat up the discussion? Trying to let otherwise mature discussions escalate into harsh arguments, widen the gap between sides?

Second how are they working our crowd?
Is it even possible to "work" a crowd like the ATS community? With the very diverse range of opinions, religions, races, countries, noone thinks the same about one subject.

The only thing that's predictable about a community like ATS, is that there will be a lot of disagreeing. It really became clear to me in the last few months, that it does not matter how convincing your proof to support your opinion is, there will always be people who do not agree, not even if you throw all the proof of the world in their face.

So how would manipulation of such a "predictably unpredictable" community work? Is it even possible?

If this polarisation is not result of professionals or manipulation, but result of the direction this world is simply going in, is there anything we can do about it? Is it not logical and natural that more people will choose sides in a more extreme way when they see what is happening around them in the world and how it is affecting their country and lives?

You have voted Jakko for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

Perhaps ATS has grown to a point where it is representaive of the state of world events.

Originally posted by Jakko

First of all - I think we need to give them the benefit of the doubt. I am almost certain we have professionals working our crowd but at the same time - a lot of people fall in without conscious purpose. ...So IMO - there's no point going on a witchhunt - we just need to disarm and neutralize the effects by understanding the process and communicating same, in context.

First of all why would professionals be working our crowd? Are we that important? What motivations could there be for professionals to do that?
Are they just trying to heat up the discussion? Trying to let otherwise mature discussions escalate into harsh arguments, widen the gap between sides?

...It would help if you'd scanned the thread, but...

The topic is the manipulated polarization of the American public. Why polarize people? To divide and conquer. To prevent productive discussion by forcing people to "take sides" - which ends dicussion, investigation and discovery

Second how are they working our crowd?
Is it even possible to "work" a crowd like the ATS community? With the very diverse range of opinions, religions, races, countries, noone thinks the same about one subject.

Of course it's possible - just manipulate every discussion to become a conservative versus liberal debate. All diversity is subsumed, every topic becomes the same topic, reduced to partisan politics.

So how would manipulation of such a "predictably unpredictable" community work? Is it even possible?

See above. Read the threads.

If this polarisation is not result of professionals or manipulation, but result of the direction this world is simply going in,

...Information, people and the world have been manipulated for a very long time - things happen for a reason.

is there anything we can do about it? Is it not logical and natural that more people will choose sides in a more extreme way when they see what is happening around them in the world and how it is affecting their country and lives?

IMO - People look for reasons, not necessarily extremes. If they get too close to the truth, the process is sabotaged purposefully and these days, with a fair degree of sophistication.

"Reactionarianism" and polarization are orchestrated IMO - not natural.

...I've spent a lot of time with "innocents" - small children and isolated communities - and observed that the first "natural" impulses are always cooperation and fairness.

...Seems to me that the 'master puppeteers' work to suppress those inclinations, create artificial 'us's' and 'thems' to polarize people - and protect their own power by deflecting attention away from themselves. ...There would be hell to pay if people got together and looked around to see who was really causing all the trouble.


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as posted by WrydeOne
...we have to somehow punish those who reinforce the stereotypes.

as posted by soficrow
Which requires a witchhunt - so you wanna know who's on my list?

...IMO - tis better to neutralize the manipulators by describing their tools and methods - and letting everyone decide for themselves if and how they are being manipulated.

And therein lies the coming problem.
All I would simply caution, which would likewise be reinforced by virtually all the ATS staff, is that a "witchhunt" is something that is frowned upon, etc. That taking what has been expressed by SO to a level that was not his intention [a witchhunt] for the purpose of "neutralizing" those subjectively determined "manipulators" would be ill-advised and amounting to being disrespectful to intention of SO's message, it's meaning, and to the very purpose and intent of ATS itself. It would only lead to further "systematic polarization," not stopping it.



seekerof

[edit on 18-3-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Seekerof

All I would simply caution, which would likewise be reinforced by virtually all the ATS staff, is that a "witchhunt" is something that is frowned upon, etc. That taking what has been expressed by SO to a level that was not his intention [a witchhunt] for the purpose of "neutralizing" those subjectively determined "manipulators" would be ill-advised and amounting to being disrespectful to intention of SO's message, it's meaning, and to the very purpose and intent of ATS itself. It would only lead to further "systematic polarization," not stopping it.

Now there's a mouthful.

Like I said - IMO - tis better to neutralize the manipulators by describing their tools and methods - and letting everyone decide for themselves if and how they are being manipulated.


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Jakko saidSecond how are they working our crowd?
Is it even possible to "work" a crowd like the ATS community? With the very diverse range of opinions, religions, races, countries, noone thinks the same about one subject.

No doubt about it. Sometimes money (from sales) could be a motivator but influence. Sending people off to other sites where 'wares' are sold and ideas pouinded. It happens, maybe not a lot but it happens. Look in Secret Societies. A veritable den of sub-groups.

Where's Majic? This is twice:

Muaddid said
I am really lost now.... You are talking about punishing those who stereotype and insult, yet your own post is full of stereotypes and insults towards those who disagree with you....
-etc-
this is unbelievable

I see it and agree. I am beside myself agreeing with you again!

I think this entire 'black arm band' thing has gone sideways. SO was trying to tell us the manipulators and rascals are grouped and pouncing to stifle and mold opinions. This current twist of the thread into a 'debate school' is counterproductive. ATS is not debate 101 or spulen 102 or grmuer 103. ATS is sharing ideas and opinions. Many are news stories, many are not.

Wyrde said
My insults are targeted specifically at people who continue to flock together and allow others to do their thinking for them

Now why is this different?

I want to isolate and stop from posting those people who act malevolently to erode individuality and herd people into red and blue pens...

And this- from my perspective really misses the point. The red/blue is NOT the problem. This may be part but it is not the root cause. Sub-groups by whatever name is the problem. One rogue gremlin is just rough to handle, the group of thugs are the manipulators.

sofi you're beating the wrong drum.

sofi said
Which requires a witchhunt - so you wanna know who's on my list?

Vigilante mentality. What makes you think you are not on 'a list' hmmm?

Form a posse to get a posse?

Sad stuff folks, sad.
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Originally posted by Jakko
Professionals working our crowd?

This is known. Not even in question. Both "paid" and "volunteer" posters of concerted and various efforts live on the Internet working their way from top to bottom and back up again.

We're on the route. (As the neo-nazi's have made more than obvious.)

Instructions are given out on any number of blogs or within the inner circles of every political campaign for how to do it.

I've got an invitation in my inbox right now to help "promote a movie" by such an effort.

And I will be looking for those posts to find their way here. Just as I know when a post originates from one or more of the other sites I monitor that promotes inflammatory dissemination for the purpose of controversy.

Now that doesn't mean every time a news article posted by Mike Moore or BlogsforBush finds it's way here it's part of a concerted effort, though real concerted efforts do exist. But the passive can be just as pervasive.

Hone your skills, look for BS, look for the "strings" of the inauthentic voices of parrots, then deny it. Do not engage. Do not feed the troll. Do not feed the divide.

Originally posted by JoeDoaks

sofi you're beating the wrong drum.

sofi said
Which requires a witchhunt - so you wanna know who's on my list?

Vigilante mentality. What makes you think you are not on 'a list' hmmm?

Form a posse to get a posse?

Sad stuff folks, sad.

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Taken out of context Joe. Next sentence: IMO - tis better to neutralize the manipulators by describing their tools and methods - and letting everyone decide for themselves if and how they are being manipulated.

Hmmm. Not your style. Guess you missed that.


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as posted by soficrow
Which requires a witchhunt - so you wanna know who's on my list?

...IMO - tis better to neutralize the manipulators by describing their tools and methods - and letting everyone decide for themselves if and how they are being manipulated.

As viewed and taken within the entire context of what you have said above, soficrow, and since I am not the only one that has taken its meaning differently, perhaps to clarify you position, so that it will help eliminate anyone else "missing" what you have said or taking what you have said "out of context," you might want to give further explanation for "my list" and "manipulators"?




seekerof

[edit on 18-3-2005 by Seekerof]

The dialogue - context:


WrydeOne says - "...we have to somehow punish those who reinforce the stereotypes."

soficrow responds - "Which requires a witchhunt - so you wanna know who's on my list? ...IMO - tis better to neutralize the manipulators by describing their tools and methods - and letting everyone decide for themselves if and how they are being manipulated."


To clarify - the question was rhetorical - my point being that different people will have different lists.

I don't believe in punishment; I believe in education. That's what this thread is about, fundamentally. I think a witchhunt would be stupid AND condescending to members - and create greater polarization. ...Sorry that wasn't clear - I get bored with myself when I feel like I repeat things. Assume others do too. Forget that it's sometimes necessary.


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Originally posted by soficrow
The topic is the manipulated polarization of the American public. Why polarize people? To divide and conquer. To prevent productive discussion by forcing people to "take sides" - which ends dicussion, investigation and discovery

In a way people have always been forced to take sides, that's how politics in a democracy work. You choose the side that appeals most to you, even though this side will not be representing your personal opinion for the full 100%.
I do not think the polarization of the American public is manipulated, for a number of reasons. The most important one is simply that no manipulation is needed in order for a group of adults to polarize. Maybe some individuals benefit from the polarization, but that does not mean they manipulated anything.

Of course it's possible - just manipulate every discussion to become a conservative versus liberal debate. All diversity is subsumed, every topic becomes the same topic, reduced to partisan politics.

This happens automaticly, not due to manipulation or one "subject swing".
It's the simple result of generalisation and people that don't know how to stay on topic. I see it all around, discussions that have anything to do with religion end up the same as well, discussions that have anything to do with abortion end up the same as discussions about gay marriage, but if you analyze why this is happening, you will see that the ATSers that slowly pull the thread away from the topic are not doing this to manipulate, they are just speaking what's on their hearts.

...Information, people and the world have been manipulated for a very long time - things happen for a reason.

I won't deny that a lot of manipulation is going on around us, but I do not think polarization in the world/on ATS is result of manipulation. As I said no manipulation is required in order for people to polarize.

IMO - People look for reasons, not necessarily extremes. If they get too close to the truth, the process is sabotaged purposefully and these days, with a fair degree of sophistication.

Can you give me one example of a process being sabotaged? Are you talking about processes in the world or is this about ATS?

...I've spent a lot of time with "innocents" - small children and isolated communities - and observed that the first "natural" impulses are always cooperation and fairness.

I am sorry to say that this is a very naiv thing to think.
From the moment humans exist, and even before the first forms of manipulation were used, there has been polarization, fighting and war about every thinkable subject. Small children beat eachother up over candy and over who can play with the gameboy, they are not as innocent as you make it sound.

...Seems to me that the 'master puppeteers' work to suppress those inclinations, create artificial 'us's' and 'thems' to polarize people - and protect their own power by deflecting attention away from themselves. ...There would be hell to pay if people got together and looked around to see who was really causing all the trouble.

What if the "us" and "them" don't have to be created?
What if it's just reality that some people have an opinion that's so against everything you stand for, that you feel the desire to make them change their mind with everything you can?

Well, maybe

Still reads to me like a school chant 'pusm 'em back, push 'em back, way back'

Then it does any reality worthy of ATS or any other non-game board.

Real people with real agendas.

Originally posted by RANT

Originally posted by Jakko
Professionals working our crowd?

This is known. Not even in question. Both "paid" and "volunteer" posters of concerted and various efforts live on the Internet working their way from top to bottom and back up again.

We're on the route. (As the neo-nazi's have made more than obvious.)

Instructions are given out on any number of blogs or within the inner circles of every political campaign for how to do it.

.......
Hone your skills, look for BS, look for the "strings" of the inauthentic voices of parrots, then deny it. Do not engage. Do not feed the troll. Do not feed the divide.

'Nuff said. The research project is a go. Sign up here if you're interested:

Polarization Research

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Originally posted by RANT
Both "paid" and "volunteer" posters of concerted and various efforts live on the Internet working their way from top to bottom and back up again.

Instructions are given out on any number of blogs or within the inner circles of every political campaign for how to do it.

I've got an invitation in my inbox right now to help "promote a movie" by such an effort.

though real concerted efforts do exist..

It would be constructive if you posted some actual examples either here or in Sofi's research project. The average ATSer is not just going to take your word for it, nor will they bother to ferret out examples on their own.