Seeker, Joe, Sofi
Lemme clarify. I wasn't advocating a witch hunt. Let's call it immunity from prosecution for all past offenders, amnesty, whatever. However,
there are several members that persist in ignoring the rules and spitting in the face of the mods, all so they can continue their campaign to spread
ignorance and incite hate against groups they perceive as evil; mostly this stems from anachronistic religious beliefs, but that's a whole 'nother
can of worms.
I don't think we need to compile lists of these people, the mods know who they are, they warn them on a daily basis it seems. And I don't think we
need to seek them out, they make themselves abundantly evident with every ejection of acid from their special glands.
What we do need, is a way to stop them from filling up the board with the same spiel every day, encapsulated in different news stories (used as an
excuse to spin, spin, spin). What about a one thread per day limit, with the ability to make unlimited replies? That would encourage people to
contribute more to the work of others. Maybe the mods could be more..LIBERAL (
) in deleting those posts that add nothing to the intelectual
merit of the discussion. I know you don't want to do this, I know. There has to be some way of encouraging insightful, logical discourse... I'm
gonna keep thinking about it, maybe I'll have an epiphany later, I don't know...
As far as changing people..I think that has to take place on an individual level. The most important way to help that along is to encourage the
posting of factual, illuminating information, so that people can make up their own minds. The problem is, they've been so trained in partisanship,
they'll just regard the truth as some sort of perverted lie designed to make their chosen politicians look bad.
A perfect example of that trend is the thread about the White House child porno ring. If that was proven conclusively factual, there would still be
dozens of people swearing up and down the photos were manipulated, the whole story was made up, the witnesses were liars, etc. etc. etc. Now I'm not
saying it is true, but just think about the sort of reactions you could expect if it was! The sides wouldn't change! Not one bit. It would simply
galvanize people's misconceptions about sides, and would further enrage them, and set ATS even deeper in the rut.
So maybe the situation is hopeless. Maybe the whole nation, most of the english speaking world, maybe the whole world..hopelessly corrupted. I
don't know. This is so frustrating because I feel like no matter what I say to try and convince people to be their own person, it won't do any
good, because the programmers are nothing if not thorough.
News Reporter: "George Bush killed and ate a Jewish baby today." :authoritative baritone:
Pundit: "See, now that's just a despicable lie put out by the liberal media." :nasal whine:
Citizen A: "He's just pure evil. He's a nazi, the antichrist, Satan's protege." :with lithp:
Citizen B: "That's a disgusting lie! He is a good man, and you just demonize him because you didn't vote for him!" :with down home twang:
Me: :silently shaking head, mouth agape, eyes skyward:
Originally posted by JoeDoaks
I am really lost now.... You are talking about punishing those who stereotype and insult, yet your own post is full of stereotypes and insults towards
those who disagree with you....
this is unbelievable
I see it and agree. I am beside myself agreeing with you again!
Okay... What you're failing to realize is that I'm not against those who disagree with me. Once again, I have no problem with disagreement, I
enjoy it thoroughly. My insults are reserved for those who simply parrot the opinion of professional manipulators, in a misguided attempt to convert
the rest of the world to their own agenda. The only agenda I am promoting here is respect, understanding, the establishment of a common ground, and
the identification of common goals. If you can't handle my agenda, which is by all rational standards the most applicable to every human being on
the planet, then you have to ask yourself, what in God's name is wrong with me? Why am I so willing to throw away a bright future of cooperation and
harmony in favor of old hatreds and artificial desires? Just ask youself that.
What bothers me immensely is when people gang up, STORM around the board, and use emotionally charged (but fundamentally hollow) words like freedom,
values, patriotism; all of that is smokescreen to conceal issues, water down threads, and make the filtering of knowledge and real information for new
comers nearly impossible. That's the concerted effort. That's the crux of the issue.
I'm intolerant of intolerance. Does that make me intolerant?
I can argue day in and day out with Seekerof or Sofi and not get worn out, because though in many cases their opinions differ from my own, they
generally act in a civil fashion, and that encourages me to do the same. Arguing with the good dr or mwm is like banging my head against a wall.
They continually fail to adhere to the principles of a fair debate, and instead rely on equal parts venom and semantics to hold their own.
What I hate doing, is talking to people who don't listen, and you're rapidly convincing me you're one of those people. Again, for the last time, I
think the people deserving of censure are the ones who, rather than listen and talk in equal measure, simply SPEW SPEW SPEW.
Their mouths are loaded but their heads are empty. They have been owned. Controlled. Directed. They are spoken for. Maybe take one of Majic's
lessons on information warfare and you will better understand. He has some really good links.
There is a concerted effort on the part of the powers that be to make you believe it is you against us. It is not, and never has been the case. Look
behind the curtain, don't take their word for what is behind it. Don't take ours either! What I want is for people of different opinions to be
able to co-exist through mutual respect.
I give respect to those who show it. I have only scorn for those who presume to tell me they are on the side of right, and that I am somehow an idiot
for failing to succumb to their simplistic efforts at misdirection. I don't mind argument, I think it's healthy and natural to debate and toss
opinions and concepts back and forth for mutual examination. The problem is baiting and fighting, and this is only made worse by a perception of
sides. This perception is cherished especially by religious people, because they've been told they will go to hell unless they stay divided. What a
horrible, horrible world we live in, where parents feel good about lying to their children and filling them with hate, all because of some
mistranslations of ancient philosophy, which, if they had remained untainted and intact, would do humanity a great service, but, in their twisted
shape, serve only to separate and reduce us to petty bickering.
We could all be living in nearly indestructable houses, having robots do all our work, eating tasty and healthy food, drinking clean water, exploring
space, writing poetry, raising our children to love and respect one another...
BUT NO! We're here debating how to salvage our country after it was raped and beaten nearly to death by thieves! Doesn't that piss you off?!
I've been thinking about it, and one of the major turning points was 9/11. After the towers fell, there was no going back, because half of America
believed it was Islam's fault, and half of America believed it was our government's fault. There are still, to this day, almost 4 years later, no
compromises, no efforts at reconcilliation, no middle ground. You're either with us or against us indeed.
And again, I'll say it one more time, labels are a big part of the problem. When people get labeled they lash out in retaliation, upset at having
been dehumanized. There are members of this community who revel in labels, they apply them willy nilly like a store clerk high on No-Doze. They are
largely to blame for the antagonism that develops. Of course, they're not the only ones to blame, basically it isn't their fault. They were raised
to be faulty, to serve their masters, to not ask questions and never give in no matter how wrong they are.
This isn't about skeptics and believers, it isn't about right and left, it isn't about white and black, or christians and muslims, THIS IS ABOUT
HUMANS. We are people. We have needs. What are those needs? (information, community, respect, action) How can we fulfill those needs? (dialogue,
research, understanding) Who is stopping us from coming together? (some say bankers, others say energy barons, others say aliens, some even say
it's our nature) What can we do to thwart their efforts? (we can stop perceiving the world in black and white, we can start to value human life
above ancient nursery rhymes, we can think of the future instead of focusing on what's six inches in front of our face)
Is that clear?
My insults are targeted specifically at people who continue to flock together and allow others to do their thinking for them
Now why is this different?
The difference is intent. The manipulators seek to destroy our unity, to make us weak and easily tricked, easily conquered, easily made ill (so they
can sell us their snake oil). I seek just the opposite. I want people to rise up and cast off ages of bigotry in one triumphant moment of divine
selfishness/selflessness (they are one and the same). That is a far more noble cause than the subjugation of the human spirit of individuality, no
matter how you slice it. A man who kills a rabid dog is not the same as a man who kills fifi the lap dog who was sleeping peacefully by the fire. I
want to put the mad dog down and you're saying that I might as well be killing fifi. I disagree, clearly.
We were gifted with a mind, a sharp, attenuated instrument for perceiving the world. There are forces out there that wish to take that from you!
Doesn't that bother you?! If not, why? If yes, then you have to understand the need for unity. The need for unity means we have to do away with
old labels and old prejudices.
You cling to them still (I'm on 'the other side'), just like racists take their hate to the grave, just like the religious take their beliefs to
the hell they've created for themselves, just as rich men sleep forever with their gold. If you don't LET GO, you will never know freedom.
I let it all go man. I had money, I had a car, an education, a promising future as a politician. I chose to be a man instead of a king, and in
making that choice, I became something more.
I'm not here because I enjoy being pummeled with the ignorance I avoid in real life. I'm here because I want to try and bring some measure of
understanding to those who have been denied it their whole life. Those who embrace it willingly are of no concern to me. It's the people who don't
know they're being manipulated that earn my sympathy.
And that's what we're here to discuss.
[edit on 18-3-2005 by WyrdeOne]