Yoga and Tantra

Peace saint4God

Originally posted by saint4God
No 'bells' and 'whistles' though, just good exercise for health and flexibility. God gives me more than I need spiritually.

With all due respect, Hatha Yoga in itself is totally worthless without the other spiritual forms of Yoga(Jnana, Bhakti, Karma, Laya, etc.).

The very word "Yoga" means to Unite(with God). So how is it that you see Yoga and the way to God as being seperate things, when the very word Yoga implies uniting with God?

If you're just doing physical exercises, it is not Yoga. If one is only doing Hatha Yoga alone, without Meditation or Tantric union; then you may as well just do some push-ups or aerobics or something.


Peace Agent Orange

Originally posted by Agent Orange
The one thing that concerns me are the incidents of people who 'freak out' during yoga or meditation practise. I personally have known a few. One aquaintence of mine went from being a normal, well adjusted, high functioning individual, to a hallucinating schizophrenic.

If this happens, it is not Yoga or Tantra's fault.

It is the fault of the practitioner and/or Guru.

Originally posted by Agent Orange
Tantra is 'bell's and whistles', magic words, hand gestures, and postures. It's 'cartwheels' and 'abracadra'. It appeals to magic, and morbidity. It is the way of the freak out...

...Yogis have traditionally taught that tantra, and magic, is a barrier to enlightenment.

Which Yogis have taught this?


And yes, some Yoga Gurus do tell their students to ignore Siddhis when they acquire them; however a real Guru would not necessarily advise all his/her students to do so. He/She would determine based upon the individual. Meaning that he/she may tell one student to totally ignore Siddhis; but may tell another to use them if necessary, if it be the Will of their Being(Atma).


Also, Patanjali's Yoga Sutras are great; however, they are not necessarily the be-all/end-all of Yoga teachings.

Yoga is actually derived from Tantra. The Solar Tantric Rishis of the Naga Serpentine Cultures were around long before the Vedic Brahmans.

Yoga and Tantra are basically the same thing. The Tibetan Buddhists and some other Mahayana sects practice Tantric Yoga.

Tantra Sanskrit for "continuum" or "unbroken stream." This refers first (1) to the continuum of vital energy that sustains all existence, and second (2) to the class of knowledge and practices that harnesses that vital energy, thereby transforming the practitioner. There are many schools of Tantrism, but they can be classified in three types: White, Grey and Black. Tantra has long been known in the West as Alchemy.

Yoga(Sanskrit) union. Related to the Latin Religare.

"The soul aspires for the union with his Intimate, and the Intimate aspires for the union with his Glorian." from The Revolution of Beelzebub

"All of the seven schools of Yoga are within Gnosis, yet they are in a synthesized and absolutely practical way. There is Tantric Hatha Yoga in the practices of the Maithuna (Sexual Magic). There is practical Raja Yoga in the work with the chakras. There is Gnana Yoga in our practices and mental disciplines which we have cultivated in secrecy for millions of years. We have Bhakti Yoga in our prayers and Rituals. We have Laya Yoga in our meditation and respiratory exercises. Samadhi exists in our practices with the Maithuna and during our deep meditations. We live the path of Karma Yoga in our upright actions, in our upright thoughts, in our upright feelings, etc." - from The Revolution of Beelzebub

"The Yoga that we require today is actually ancient Gnostic Christian Yoga, which absolutely rejects the idea of Hatha Yoga. We do not recommend Hatha Yoga simply because, spiritually speaking, the acrobatics of this discipline are fruitless; they should be left to the acrobats of the circus." - from The Yellow Book

It is a shame that "Yoga" as practiced here in the West, is so degenerated and nothing more than physical exercise.

If you want to talk about bells & whistles; Hatha Yoga in itself, is nothing but that.



PEACE

Also, I'd like to add that you are correct Echtelion, that fancy postures are not necessary for Meditation and other Yogic/Tantric practices.

It's good if one can sit Lotus style, though it is not by any means a requirement.


Most Western bodies are not adapted to certain postures, and many people give up what could have been spiritually beneficial for them; all because they think they have to perform fancy postures to be practicing Yoga/Tantra.

This is why The Maitreya Buddha is depicted as Meditating in a chair.

There are depictions of ancient Kemetians practicing Yoga/Meditation in a kneeling position.

Speaking of which I would also recommend anything by Muata Ashby.


Master M has some good material for Western Yoga Aspirants as well:

The Dayspring of Youth

The Lord God of Truth Within


And just make sure that when you Meditate, that your spine is straight with your chin drawn in a little.




HOTEP

Egyptian Yoga? Gnostic meditation? Tamahu... you're misleading people here with all this mystic crap regurgitated from the OTO and other esoterical western cults who claim to have a "true" interpretation of the ancient asian knowledge of Yoga. If people want to use mediation as a way to make peace in their minds and harmonize their body with spirit, then that's good... they don't need to buy hundreds of New Age books who tells them incoherent babble about how they can become one with God via the Kundalini...

OTO? New Age? Please.


The late O.T.O. is for Black-Magicians.

And most "New Age" stuff, is for non-serious people who want to "party it up" and what not, yet still be "spiritual"(like mixing oil and water).


I most definitely agree that one ought to study the original texts on Yoga and the Holy Books of the Ancient Religions.

However, there are Masters who are here to clarify for Westerners their Inner teachings; because many of us don't have access to authentic Gurus from the East. Also, much of the teachings that have been written in the past were geared toward the Age of Pisces, not the current era of Aquarius(not to sound "New Age" ).


Just because you don't understand the teachings of certain Esoteric traditions, doesn't mean that they are "New Age".


All that I've posted can most definitely be reconciled with authentic Religion and Yoga.

Do you know what Dzogchen is?(see my first post in this thread)


And please tell me how it is, that one could learn about the actual religious practices of the Ancient Kemetians, if it weren't for people like Muata Ashby and Ra Un Nefer Amen?(it appears to be nothing more than superstition to the ignorant "Egyptologists").

The term Egyptian Yoga is not some made-up "New Age" term either. In Ancient Kemet they said "Smai-Tawi" which translates to "Egyptian Yoga".


With all due respect, please know what you're talking about before accusing someone of deceiving people.



Peace



[edit on 22-3-2005 by Tamahu]

Originally posted by dotgov101
I'm literally psychotic until I attend Yoga. Our practices are actually held in an art gallery in the afternoons and evenings.

If I take my evening meds too soon after doing Yoga, I do get a little "wierd."

I practice Flow two times a week for 2 1/2 and do Om Yoga (more advanced and CV) once a week for 3 hours. In between I do CV activities, with one day off for "recovery" and eating whatever the ell I want. Sort of a way of thanking myself, I guess.

I was a vegatarian when I started, but then started craving meat (???). So I eat one piece of meat on my "recovery" day.

The lady who does the Om techniques weighs well over 300 lbs, and can do the splits!!!! O Myeffing G! We aren't forced into any positions... it's pretty lax (pun intended) otherwise. I work on my positions during any free moment... scare the ladies at work by doing the tree stance.

I have a severe chemical imbalance, but all of my Western-taught physicians say go for it. Since I've been doing it, my stance and posture have changed. My limbs appear longer. No more back pain. Minimal arthritis. Best of all, my anxiety attacks have ceased, so my meds have been reduced.

My senses have become more enhanced. My balance has improved 2X, so I'm going to start sword-training again. Studied Hapkido...and start Shaolin this week. It's a shame...the Shaolin instructor is dying of lymphoma.

That's my input...I'm still a newbie...but I practice the more difficult poses when alone. The sitting stance can be improved by balancing your spine on a pair of blankets folded four inches wide on the center of your mat. Place your tailbone at the end of the "beam," cross your legs, and slowly lean back. Remain laying/balancing there until you reach your "edge."

Keep exhaling deeply and your hips will become more malleable. It'll hurt like ell at the time, but once you need to sit back up you can really feel the difference. I do this for an hour a day...

Cool thing is you can watch TV or listen to the radio while you're doing it. I was told by Hapkido Master Hilland to start off by practicing the stance during a commercial. Do that for a week. Then practice the stance for the part of your favourite TV show between commercials. Do that for another week. Keep going until you can make it through the entire TV show.

You hurt and reward yourself at the same time. Which is part of what Yoga and Martial Arts are about. Yin and Yang.

Dot.

Some excellent posts.

I think the important thing is moderation. I have heard ofsome people who 'had difficulties', but the common element seemed to be that they pushed very hard at it. 12 hour mediatation sessions, and the like. That might be okay if you're a Buddhist monk, with a spiritual guide, and 20 yrs serious experience behind you. It's a bit much to walk into cold.



[edit on 23-3-2005 by Agent Orange]

[edit on 23-3-2005 by Agent Orange]

...Yogis have traditionally taught that tantra, and magic, is a barrier to enlightenment.


Which Yogis have taught this?


And yes, some Yoga Gurus do tell their students to ignore Siddhis when they acquire them; however a real Guru would not necessarily advise all his/her students to do so. He/She would determine based upon the individual. Meaning that he/she may tell one student to totally ignore Siddhis; but may tell another to use them if necessary, if it be the Will of their Being(Atma).


Ramakrishna used to teach that if you get Siddhis, then you can never be enlightened. He'd pray every day not to develop them. They idea is that they can become a major distraction, and a major temptation.

Originally posted by Cug

Originally posted by The Astral City
As a westerner and practicer of Zen I find many of the traditional positions of meditation uncomfortable. They were developed for eastern societies and the resting positions of those cultures (kneeling) whereas in the Americas and Europe our resting position is reclining or sitting.

Uncomfortable positions are kinda the point, the goal is to overcome it. Even a easy position is uncomfortable at first. Before you fall asleep, just lie there not moving. Your body is going to start rebelling pretty fast, you might get an itch, if you ignore it you will get more itches, then your body will start to twitch or have a tremor here and there, anything just to get you to move a bit.

Wouldn't an uncomfortable position detract from thee xperince of meditation? Origionally many of the sitting postions were adopted because they were more 'stable', allowing meditators to remain in the same positions for long periods of time, with their spines straight, and with out strain.

Westerns aren't used to it, and try to squeeze themselves into full lotus like a pretzel! The knees ache, they get shrape stabbing pains up the thighs, and can't get into the meditation.

Originally posted by Tamahu
Peace saint4God

With all due respect, Hatha Yoga in itself is totally worthless without the other spiritual forms of Yoga(Jnana, Bhakti, Karma, Laya, etc.).

Thanks for the respect, it's a rare thing these days. It's mutual, I can assure. However, to say it's worthless is to deny the physical proof I have that says otherwise.

Originally posted by Tamahu
The very word "Yoga" means to Unite(with God). So how is it that you see Yoga and the way to God as being seperate things, when the very word Yoga implies uniting with God?

Just using the dictionary, second definition:

Main Entry: yo·ga
Pronunciation: 'yO-g&
Function: noun
Etymology: Sanskrit, literally, yoking, from yunakti he yokes; akin to Latin jungere to join -- more at YOKE

2 : a system of exercises for attaining bodily or mental control and well-being

Did I not use the word correctly?

Originally posted by Tamahu
If you're just doing physical exercises, it is not Yoga.

That's strange, the box on my DVD's say 'Yoga' not 'just doing physical exercises'. Hmm... Is this one of those "conspiracy theories"?

Originally posted by Tamahu
If one is only doing Hatha Yoga alone, without Meditation or Tantric union; then you may as well just do some push-ups or aerobics or something.

Do those too! I'd recommend Kung-Fu and Wushu

Peace be with you as well.

Doesn't Yoga have the same word origiona as 'religion'? Cicero traces "religion" from the Latin for 'binding', as yoga is sometimes translated as 'to yoke'.

Yes that is what I'm saying.

Yoga and Religion are inseparable, as the etymology of the two words imply the same thing.


This is what bugs me about the "Yoga" commonly practiced here in the West. How could it actually be called Yoga, when all it is, is physical exercise? Who knows, maybe some people consider physical exercise in itself, to be a religious practice?


Like I quoted earlier(peep the bold)

Yoga(Sanskrit) union. Related to the Latin Religare.

"The soul aspires for the union with his Intimate, and the Intimate aspires for the union with his Glorian." from The Revolution of Beelzebub

"All of the seven schools of Yoga are within Gnosis, yet they are in a synthesized and absolutely practical way. There is Tantric Hatha Yoga in the practices of the Maithuna (Sexual Magic). There is practical Raja Yoga in the work with the chakras. There is Gnana Yoga in our practices and mental disciplines which we have cultivated in secrecy for millions of years. We have Bhakti Yoga in our prayers and Rituals. We have Laya Yoga in our meditation and respiratory exercises. Samadhi exists in our practices with the Maithuna and during our deep meditations. We live the path of Karma Yoga in our upright actions, in our upright thoughts, in our upright feelings, etc." - from The Revolution of Beelzebub

"The Yoga that we require today is actually ancient Gnostic Christian Yoga, which absolutely rejects the idea of Hatha Yoga. We do not recommend Hatha Yoga simply because, spiritually speaking, the acrobatics of this discipline are fruitless; they should be left to the acrobats of the circus." - from The Yellow Book

Peace

Originally posted by Tamahu
Yoga and Religion are inseparable

Somebody managed to separate it. I practice the exercise known as yoga but has nothing to do with religion. The dictionary seems to agree with the definition as a physical and mental exercise. *shrug*

[edit on 23-3-2005 by saint4God]

It's a point well worth making, and all the great one's Like Ramakrishna, have made it, "Yoga is devotion to God". Alot of current yoga seesm like "sorcery" to me. Techniques to develop "super powers". CArlos Casteneda pointed out that "all sorcery is interference". Prehaps the reason that "everything has been figured out except how to live" is because we have become so adept at interfering with our own lives, and the lives of others.

"In life there is Love and there is power. No one has both."

Good thread...

The issue of whether Gifts of the Spirit or Siddhis lead to or hinder enlightenment is an important one. Paramahansa Yogananda, author of Autobiography Of A Yogi, stated that he knew of a swami that had the ability to manifest flowers and that this was not an indication of spiritual attainment. I completely agree.

In my opinion and experience, to date, all the people who have ever had Siddhis (like the ability to manifest food, change water to wine, change base metals into silver and/or gold, bend kitchenware telekinetically, manifest powerful healing energies, etc.) have received those Gifts from collectives of discarnates (of basic spirituality at best) who were combined into a large Group Entity.

Being part of and/or aligned with a Group Entity hinders ones growth because it distracts one from the core essence of evolutionary development: striving to live by The Golden Rule, increasing one's compassion and overall ability to love genuinely and deeply, and serving others.

There are people that I have come across that had powerful Siddhis but who were not spiritually based. Sai Baba of India is a classic example of this. His Siddhis have been compared to that of Jesus of Nazareth (AKA the prophet Issa), which is why decades ago Baba was often referred to as "The Christ of India." Unfortunately, in recent years many of his former devotees have come out publicly on the Net to attest to him being a sexual predator of young men and boys at his ashram. The upshot: Sai Baba is a pedophile. His Gifts have noticeably lessened through the years, apparently from his misuse of the Siddhis he has been given and the retrogression of the Group Entities that provided his Gifts while he was sexually abusing innocents -- among other things.

We should allow ourselves the pleasure of being inspired by powerful Gifts of the Spirit (like those of the fictitious Jedi in the 'Star Wars' films) without falling into the trap of striving to align ourselves with Group Entities. In other words, we should not seek power for its own sake. If we are aligned with a GE that works through and around us, it hinders our growth in eventually evolving to the point after death whereby we can Ascend into The Light to a very high degree and manifest our own telekinetic miracles that are more powerful than that of ANY large Group Entity.

A poignant tenet in the Mormon faith is that all souls have the spiritual potential to evolve to the point of having the ability to manifest their own planet with the Light of God. This is similar to the teaching of Edgar Cayce who espoused that spiritual people are destined to become Co-Creators. However, you don't get there from pursuing Siddhis or powerful Gifts of the Spirit; you get there from improving your ability to love genuinely and deeply.

To become, as Jiddu Krishnamurti envisioned, a "Light onto Oneself."

That is the essence of what enlightenment is really all about



[edit on 25-3-2005 by Paul_Richard]

Originally posted by Agent Orange
It's a point well worth making, and all the great one's Like Ramakrishna, have made it, "Yoga is devotion to God". Alot of current yoga seesm like "sorcery" to me. Techniques to develop "super powers". CArlos Casteneda pointed out that "all sorcery is interference". Prehaps the reason that "everything has been figured out except how to live" is because we have become so adept at interfering with our own lives, and the lives of others.

"In life there is Love and there is power. No one has both."

When Siddhis are utilized in a positive manner according to the Will of our Being, this is called Theurgy, which is the antithesis of sorcery, necromancy, black-magic and goetia.

The latter are the result of Siddhis being used according to the will of our egos.


To condemn Theurgy is a crime, because Theurgy means "God's Work" and is utilized for the benefit of All Sentient Beings.

Theurgy From the Greek theos, "god," and ergon, "work" The action of Theos (God, the Monad). This is white magic, the influence and power that the Monad has over nature and its phenomena. This power and intelligence is exercised in many ways and can be exercised through the Bodhisattva or any particular solar body.

The White Magician does not violate the Law. Whosoever performs magical works without permission of his Intimate and against the will of the Divine Hierarchies is a Black Magician who will pay his karma within the abyss. - Samael Aun Weor

The Divine Rabbi from Galilee practiced the Gospel and healed the sick because he was a true Magician and Theurgist, a true God.

"Magic" comes from mag which means "priest". It signifies great power from the Divine Wisdom, the Ineffable Light, the Solar Substance which the Medic Magician manipulates in order to heal those who are ill.

When the human being fuses himself with his own Intimate, he converts himself into a God of Nature. This is why the Masters from the Mayan Ray are ineffable Gods of Nature. - Samael Aun Weor

HOTEP

Peace Paul_Richard


A few things real quick in response to your post, according to my understanding:


1) Paramahansa Yogananda is a great Initiate of The Path of Self Realization, however it is said that he has to reincarnate as to marry, and finish some work on himself that cannot be done without a wife.


2) As I said in that light-quotient thread; I agree that powers do not necessarily indicate an elevated level of Being. But I must still stress that Theurgy is not to be condemned.


3) I also do not trust Sai Baba and believe that he is probably a false prophet. I've stopped buying his incense.


4) Mormonism is derived from Gnosis in a sense(hence the part about becoming an Elohim Cosmo-Creator), though I'd say that Joseph Smith was also a false prophet and that The Mormon Church is a manifestation of what some refer to as "The Black Lodge". Though Mormonism does have some positive aspects.


5) Krishnamurti is also a great Initiate; however, you may want to read this very interesting lecture on The Krishnamurti Case

An excerpt:

...When Lady Besant, Leadbeater, and other Theosophists studied the Krishnamurti case, they became astonished with the splendid light of that Christified Buddha. However, since they did not know the Christic Esotericism, they completely believed that Krishnamurti was the reincarnation of Jesus Christ.

The mistake was not in their clairvoyance; the mistake was in their lack of intellectual culture. They only knew about the Theosophical Septenary. They only knew about the body, soul, and spirit. Yet, they ignored that beyond these three aspects (body, soul, and spirit) every human being has a Ray (the Internal Christ) that unites us to the Absolute.

They saw the internal God of Krishnamurti and believed that he was Jesus of Nazareth, that was their mistake. What is most critical, is the damage that they perpetrated upon the Hindu boy. When a Bodhisattva is told that his internal God is a Master, he becomes confused; he is damaged; he develops a complex.

The Hindu boy saw those instructors arguing among themselves because of him. Thus, the outcome was a psychological trauma for his human personality. Krishnamurti had a psychological trauma.

There is no doubt that the Theosophist clairvoyants did a great damage to the Hindu boy. The Theosophist Hierarchs should have left the Hindu boy in peace. He would have developed himself freely in India. Then, his work would have been marvelous.

The great Buddha of Krishnamurti did not give his whole message because his Bodhisattva had a psychological trauma.

6) Any powers derived from channeling/mediumism are only forms of black-magic, and have nothing to do with the abilities that The Divine grants us as we eliminate our defects and egos.

Though an authentic Oracle(such as the Nechung Oracle that the Dalai Lama consults) is a different story.....



PEACE



[edit on 25-3-2005 by Tamahu]

Oh man.


I just saw this:

Originally posted by dotgov101
Cool thing is you can watch TV or listen to the radio while you're doing it. I was told by Hapkido Master Hilland to start off by practicing the stance during a commercial. Do that for a week. Then practice the stance for the part of your favourite TV show between commercials. Do that for another week. Keep going until you can make it through the entire TV show.

And again, not to disrespect; but this is rediculous.

This exactly what I was talking about regarding Yoga being totally corrupted; especially in the West(see my previous posts in this thread about "Hatha Yoga").


Any Yoga practice is meant to be done in complete and total Profound-Meditation.

Calm-Abiding(Shamatha) and Conscious-Imagination(Vipassana) are necessary for any real practice.

"Watching TV" or listening to the radio are an antithesis of these things, and thus makes any practice totally worthless. Especially considering that 95% of what is on the television and radio, is of negativity. Said negativity gets trapped within our subconscious and provides more fuel for our egos to operate on.


I recommend that if Well-Being is what you seek, practice in Meditation, instead of absorbing crap from the airwaves during 'Yoga' exercise.

(And perhaps seek out a Martial Arts instructor who won't suggest to do such absurd things)



Peace




[edit on 25-3-2005 by Tamahu]

Muata Ashby

In the wisdom Teaching process of spiritual practice, you listen to the teaching, you practice the ritual relating to it, and then you meditate. Myth, ritual and metaphysics are the three steps of religion. Sedjm is the term that means to listen and heed. When you listen [to] something righteous you are supposed to heed it, act in accordance with that. You are not supposed to listen to it and then foget about it, such as the way many Christians treat the Ten Commandments. They know about them but then they put the[m] out of their minds and go ahead and do whatever they want anyway.

Once you have the teachings, you listen to the teachings, and then it is time for 'aru' which means ritual, the things that are to be done with respect to the teaching. Then it is time for 'uaah' or meditation.

Rituals should be thought of here not as just traditional actions to do and finish up so you can get home and watch TV.


I want you to understand that the practice of religion and the practice of Shedy, yogic disciplines, should lead to the same spiritual realization.

[edit on 25-3-2005 by Tamahu]

Hi Tamahu,

Originally posted by Tamahu

1) Paramahansa Yogananda is a great Initiate of The Path of Self Realization, however it is said that he has to reincarnate as to marry, and finish some work on himself that cannot be done without a wife.

That is neither here nor there. The point that he made about Siddhis or Gifts of the Spirit not being indicative of spiritual attainment is still valid in my opinion and experience.

Originally posted by Tamahu

2) As I said in that light-quotient thread; I agree that powers do not necessarily indicate an elevated level of Being. But I must still stress that Theurgy is not to be condemned.

Most Siddhis come from Group Entities that have their own agenda. If you emotionally/spiritually unite with a large Group Entity that works through and around you, their energies can and do dissipate your spiritual path because you rely on your Gifts instead of cultivating your Compassion.

Large Group Entities often pose as Ascended Masters, gods and The Original Creator. So there is also the deception aspect to all this. If you unite with a large collective of spirits that pose as a God Realized Master, when in reality they are just a group of basically spiritual people (at best) who are combined astrally on the Other Side, when you leave your body after promoting them as a God, you feel like a fool.

Yes, this happened to me.

Originally posted by Tamahu
3) I also do not trust Sai Baba and believe that he is probably a false prophet. I've stopped buying his incense.

Sai Baba is a pedophile subangel prophet. Hitler was also a subangel prophet. Subangel prophets channel large Group Entities of common spirits that grant them their Siddhis. These and those like them represent sorcerers of black magick.

I noticed that Sai Baba's incense has crept into the well-known health food chain known as Whole Foods. Perhaps if the management of Whole Foods knew about his pedophile activities they would be less prone to carry his products.

Originally posted by Tamahu

4) Mormonism is derived from Gnosis in a sense(hence the part about becoming an Elohim Cosmo-Creator), though I'd say that Joseph Smith was also a false prophet and that The Mormon Church is a manifestation of what some refer to as "The Black Lodge". Though Mormonism does have some positive aspects.

Mormonism, as with all the world's traditional religions, was started and empowered by large Group Entities who were not representative of The Original Creator. That is why the telekinetic miracles in each traditional religion fail to significantly outshine the others.

Nevertheless, the Mormon belief that spiritual souls have the potential to evolve into becoming Co-Creators is insightful and accurate in my opinion and experience.

Originally posted by Tamahu
5) Krishnamurti is also a great Initiate; however, you may want to read this very interesting lecture on The Krishnamurti Case

Jiddu Krishnamurti was and is a respected philosopher and metaphysician in his own right. Having had the disadvantage of being surrounded by a bunch of pinheads in life should not be held against him.

Originally posted by Tamahu
6) Any powers derived from channeling/mediumism are only forms of black-magic, and have nothing to do with the abilities that The Divine grants us as we eliminate our defects and egos.

In and of itself, communicating with spiritual people on the Other Side is not a form of black magick. Black magick is when you align yourself with Group Entities of common spirits or subangels and you use your Gifts for evil purposes.

Most of my friends are on the Other Side and are discarnate Saints. As as spiritual medium, I communicate with them constantly and have found their energies to be spiritually uplifting, insightful, genuine, pure, and nurturing.



[edit on 26-3-2005 by Paul_Richard]

Paul_Richard, so why is it that you have a false belief structure regarding things like 911 etc?.

ThePunisher,

Keep to the issues addressed in this discussion. There are other threads whereby you can further your political agenda and bash the US government.

This is not one of those places