who say china is not copying

another medal in china telly [no flaming just found this aricle on nytimes]

www.nytimes.com...
CHINA is the global epicenter of pirating and counterfeiting. By its government's own estimate, China's domestic trade in bogus goods accounts for $19 billion to $24 billion annually. That is undoubtedly a significant understatement, and it doesn't even include the stolen technologies and phony brands China exports to the rest of the world

I just thought of this... copyrights, etc. is part of the capitalist ideology. China is not really capitalist...

Originally posted by Taishyou
I just thought of this... copyrights, etc. is part of the capitalist ideology. China is not really capitalist...

you trying to make me laugh arent u.

Chinese are extremely capitalist by nature... just look at the gambling culture there.

The reason for rampant piracy in china is the lack of a real legal framework to deal with intellectual property rights.

However China is moving to sort this problem out as it can seriously hamper growth and FDI in the future.

I thought gambling was prohibited there? Except for Hong Kong and Macao? Anyway, China is not pure capitalist. It's sort of half capitalist and half socialist. Business, economy, etc are not let wild like in pure capitalist societies.

But you're right, there aren't any strict laws regarding copyright, etc.

[edit on 12-5-2005 by Taishyou]

China prides itself on its thievery...
they even export "how to books" on how to steal products...

the concept is understandable if not unethical from an american standpoint...

it is called NIH... "not invented here"

they don't understand that it is unfair to copy and reverse engineer a product that took years to engineer and fine tune.
...
they think they are doing something great by making a copy...

when in actuallity they are doing something that any well trained monkey could do...

if only the chinese were still in the good old days of culture... their ancestors invented most medicine centurys before anyone else did,

but now.....

if everyone did what they did, the world would never get any where,
becasue thier would be no one willing to make anything new, becuase it would just be copied by people that had invested NO time or money in development.

zero social or technical evolution the chinese way...

but thank god there are true capitalist countries that actually DO create things that thieves can copy...

another copy





hina markets Type W99 mortar

CHRISTOPHER F FOSS JDW Land Forces Editor
Abu Dhabi

China North Industries Corporation (NORINCO) is now offering for export an 82mm towed rapid firing mortar system called the Type W99.

In appearance the Type W99 appears to be almost identical to the Russian 82mm AM 2B9 Vasilek automatic mortar system which entered service with the Soviet Army around 1971 and has also been manufactured in Hungary.

The Type W99 mortar weighs 650kg and is normally operated by a crew of four or five. It has a minimum range of 800m and a maximum range of 4,270m. When deployed in the firing position it rests on a screw-jack lowered under the forward part of the split-trail carriage and the two trails, each of which is provided with a spade.

Compared with conventional muzzle-loaded 81mm and 82mm mortars the 82 Type W99 offers a number of operational advantages including a higher rate of fire as the gunner can select single shots or burst firing. It can also be used in the direct fire role as well as the normal indirect fire role.

According to NORINCO, the Type W99 mortar is fitted with a standard sighting system and a firing calculator although no details of the latter have been released.

It can fire a W99 82mm high explosive mortar bomb or modified versions of existing 82mm mortar bombs with maximum muzzle velocity being 272m/s. Clips of four are loaded from the right and four bombs can be fired in 1.5s.

The 82mm ordnance has a traverse of 30º left and right with elevation from -1 to +85º. Breech loading is normally used at the lower angles of elevation but it can also be muzzle loaded.

The complete Russian 2K21 Vasilek mortar system comprises the actual AM 2B9 Vasilek mortar, the 2F54 transport vehicle based on the GAZ-66 (4 x 4) 2,000kg truck and 226 82mm mortar bombs (of which 96 are fitted with fuzes ready for use in 24 clips). The 2B9 Vasilek is normally carried in the rear of the GAZ-66 and unloaded when required for action using on-board handling gear. NORINCO has stated that it is offering a complete system built around the Type W99 mortar.

This is the latest in a long line of foreign weapon systems that have been reverse engineered by China for the home or export markets. Several years ago it was revealed that China was marketing an exact copy of the Italian Otobreda 105mm Model 56 Pack Howitzer (Jane's Defence Weekly 14 May 1997).

www.janes.com...

yeah baby.. dont make me go on about the indian army is 70% soviet origin

my child but we did not resell.it is meant for indian defence forces not for other market.

exactly..
there's a diff between copying and acquiring rights to replicate and modify..
You say India took help from the germans..agreed..
They helped use willingly..
HEnce we did not copy..
anyways IMHO copying is irrelevant unless the creators take action..

Originally posted by Daedalus3
exactly..
there's a diff between copying and acquiring rights to replicate and modify..
You say India took help from the germans..agreed..
They helped use willingly..
HEnce we did not copy..
anyways IMHO copying is irrelevant unless the creators take action..

seriously i never mentioined german help. mizra did...

i dont even think germans even helped. i just throught india just based it on the leopard 2

Lazarus

Whats this BS about reverse engineering and copying being the bane of civilization?

Everything in the world is reverse engineered to be made better, copyright is also a new western concept, it never existed in China and the Chinese still invented some of the greatest inventions on Earth.

Perhaps China should start charging loyalties on every gun/cannon/missile made considering that it invented rocketry and gunpowder.

And balony about America not copying, it benefitted enormously from German engineering after WWII.

Besides Japan is much better at reverse engineering things then China and i commend them 100%. Without Japan, we would not be watching VCR or any of the high-tech gadgets that we have today.

I would like to see a trained monkey reverse engineer half of the things that Japan has done and come up with things like the VCR, MD, etc, etc, etc.

There is hardly anything in the World that is useful when it's invented, it always needs to be refined.

EDIT:
Any country that has never copied put it's hands up.....

Any takers???

[edit on 15-5-2005 by rapier28]

[edit on 15-5-2005 by rapier28]

There is no concept of personal ownership of an idea or design in communist ideology. Such ideas are, theoretically, property of the state and the people. This is why communist countries "steal" ideas. They are merely taking advantage of the best available designs, as is permitted by their ideology - although whether they can call themselves communist or not is debatable.

The Soviets did the same after World War II in an effort to catch up in the nuclear arms race. Before ICBMs were introduced they copied American designs for bomber aircraft, such as the B-29 and B-36. This copying where they saw necessary, did not slow down technological development in the USSR. They were the first to put a man in space, remember. And to launch a sattelite.

So Chinese innovation will not slow down as a result of this copying. They are simply trying to put themselves on an equal military footing with the USA. What's anyone going to do about it? Tell them it's not fair? Nobody is going to listen.

Yes copying is irrelevant as I said.. Its battle performance that counts..
Note though while grading battle performance copies theoretically should be more successful than indigenous prototypes..
A copy that is a failure is just .. umm well .. pathetic..

Also one must note that originality helps maintain an edge over the others in a field as you are a pioneer then..
copiers are always on step behind..

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Also one must note that originality helps maintain an edge over the others in a field as you are a pioneer then..
copiers are always on step behind..

Yes, your absolutely right.

Think of it this way, without people copying, there would be no need to improve designs.

The originality of the designer is always rewarded, in fame or money.

In the good old days, fame was more then enough, but now it seems, people want money.

Originally posted by rapier28


Think of it this way, without people copying, there would be no need to improve designs.

not exactly.. if one were to come up with a completely new indigenous counter to a prev original design, then the prev original desgin will need further improvement..

For eg: Anti stealth tech is developed to counter US stealth..
Obv it has to be original as no ones done it before..

In order to counter this anti-stealth the US will need to improve on its oen stealth tech..

Hence in the counter-counter improvement cycle originailty can be maintained completely on both sides w/o copying ever leaking into the system..

copying is just a shortcut to save funds..it doesn't necessarily provoke improvements by the creator in the original design itself...

Yes, your right.

Of course, i could be a total smartass by saying that if the Chinese copied U.S stealth tech then the U.S would need to invent anti-stealth tech.

But i won't say that...

oh wait...

Joke

oh im quite sure the US HAVE anti-stealth tech up their sleeves..its obv that they're not going to be the only ones with stealth a/c in the near future..and snce they have a headstart in the stealth sphere... why not use that knowledge to gaina few notches in the anti-stealth speher as well..

Originally posted by rapier28

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Also one must note that originality helps maintain an edge over the others in a field as you are a pioneer then..
copiers are always on step behind..

Yes, your absolutely right.

IMO, that you are wrong...
it is basic economics...
the originator has the largest up front investment, and a limited time to recompense his costs of creation before patent dissolves...

if people were allowed to copy and improve a NEWLY released product, then the originator would not make any money, while the copiers would have all the advantages , proof of concept, easy design, investors.
it is much easier to steal than create...
an original product can cost millions to create, while the copy costs pennys...
who has the advantage?

thereby taking away the only incentive to be the originator of the product...
and in true Ayn Rand style... these creators would simply stop creating...
stopping all technological growth...

and you made comment about paying all royalties on any gunpowder related device to china,
sorry... patent is expired... common use item, available to anyone... china already made back there startup costs...

and besides... that was the age of invention in China before communism... they WERE great, now the communistic government just makes the entire country a big leech...

and it all comes down to the concept of ownership... the free market capitalistic system is set up to inspire more growth and advancement, the communistic is set up to leech off the better able...

china has great creative ability... it is the government that hampers the utilization of it.

But the point is,

People still managed to progress from the Stone age to the Industrial age without patents.

Half the patents nowdays are actually improvements on another patent, it's just the way it is. It happens all the time. These things take time, the creator will most likely have already benefited from it's creation.

The current copyright laws in the U.S are not the ones that Benjamin Franklin envisioned, he imagined them just to be a quick way to get paid for inventing something, not to be milked relentlessly for 50 years. That actually stops creativity and invention.