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originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
Funny you should mention that as this came up in one of my feeds today...Hijacking History: the problem with the “Black Olmec” myth
originally posted by: Blue Shift
Since apparently none of the "indigenous" peoples probably evolved there, they pretty much all had to come from somewhere else. Central America was apparently quite the melting pot during and after the last Ice Age when almost everyone headed south to get away from the scrubbing of the rest of North America 12,000 or so years ago. But again, no genetic evidence (so far) of African interbreeding in South America. Is this what the Clovis people looked like?
originally posted by: Blue Shift
originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
Well the southern-north pattern would come out of the west. As to southern Africa? Never say never.
originally posted by: Blue Shift
originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
originally posted by: Jonjonj
It would make sense that any society to the North would head South during a glacial maximum wouldn't it? Maybe the problem with science is not giving any common sense value to what were, essentially, our ancestors.
Except for those who came from the south.
Or the West across the ocean. Or the East from southern Africa or beyond.
Just thinking of the South Equatorial currents. I don't think there have been any discoveries in genetic tracking that have shown any shared haplotypes or anything between southern Africa and Brazil, but the currents are there. Also, I suppose the southern Africans really didn't do a lot of long-distance seafaring. Some of those Olmec statue heads sure look African, though.
originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
originally posted by: Blue Shift
Since apparently none of the "indigenous" peoples probably evolved there, they pretty much all had to come from somewhere else. Central America was apparently quite the melting pot during and after the last Ice Age when almost everyone headed south to get away from the scrubbing of the rest of North America 12,000 or so years ago. But again, no genetic evidence (so far) of African interbreeding in South America. Is this what the Clovis people looked like?
A friend of mine is an Anishinaabe Elder and Memory Keeper. He tells me that his people recount stories of the coming of the ice, and I have no reason nor scientific evidence to refute him so I take him at his word. That's the best I can do to answer your question.
In the Great Lakes Basin, which is kinda my turf, meltwaters were jammed up by ice in the St. Lawrence Lowlands, so the lake levels were much higher. Archaic Lake Iroquois was the precursor to Lake Ontario and its successive shorelines are quite evident on the landscape. So when the ice dams breached...they would have drained in a pretty catastrophic manner. As an aside, one associate of mine would survey what would have been promontories into the archaic lake, looking for PaleoIndian (PaleoAncestor?) sites and by golly, that's where he found them.
originally posted by: FishBait
originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
originally posted by: Blue Shift
Since apparently none of the "indigenous" peoples probably evolved there, they pretty much all had to come from somewhere else. Central America was apparently quite the melting pot during and after the last Ice Age when almost everyone headed south to get away from the scrubbing of the rest of North America 12,000 or so years ago. But again, no genetic evidence (so far) of African interbreeding in South America. Is this what the Clovis people looked like?
A friend of mine is an Anishinaabe Elder and Memory Keeper. He tells me that his people recount stories of the coming of the ice, and I have no reason nor scientific evidence to refute him so I take him at his word. That's the best I can do to answer your question.
There are quite a lot of these stories amongst different tribes along with flood stories that scientist are suspecting indicate the fast melting of the glaciers. There is a lot of evidence mounting that the glaciers melted very fast in some areas and caused catastrophic flooding.
originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
A friend of mine is an Anishinaabe Elder and Memory Keeper. He tells me that his people recount stories of the coming of the ice, and I have no reason nor scientific evidence to refute him so I take him at his word. That's the best I can do to answer your question.
Quick edit to state...way creepy avatar, Dude!
Maybe...but it ain't his face. Or should I say "Gesicht"?
originally posted by: Blue Shift
originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
A friend of mine is an Anishinaabe Elder and Memory Keeper. He tells me that his people recount stories of the coming of the ice, and I have no reason nor scientific evidence to refute him so I take him at his word. That's the best I can do to answer your question.
Quick edit to state...way creepy avatar, Dude!
That's Brad Pitt's hair.
originally posted by: Blue Shift
originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
Well the southern-north pattern would come out of the west. As to southern Africa? Never say never.
originally posted by: Blue Shift
originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
originally posted by: Jonjonj
It would make sense that any society to the North would head South during a glacial maximum wouldn't it? Maybe the problem with science is not giving any common sense value to what were, essentially, our ancestors.
Except for those who came from the south.
Or the West across the ocean. Or the East from southern Africa or beyond.
Just thinking of the South Equatorial currents. I don't think there have been any discoveries in genetic tracking that have shown any shared haplotypes or anything between southern Africa and Brazil, but the currents are there. Also, I suppose the southern Africans really didn't do a lot of long-distance seafaring. Some of those Olmec statue heads sure look African, though.
originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
originally posted by: Blue Shift
Since apparently none of the "indigenous" peoples probably evolved there, they pretty much all had to come from somewhere else. Central America was apparently quite the melting pot during and after the last Ice Age when almost everyone headed south to get away from the scrubbing of the rest of North America 12,000 or so years ago. But again, no genetic evidence (so far) of African interbreeding in South America. Is this what the Clovis people looked like?
A friend of mine is an Anishinaabe Elder and Memory Keeper. He tells me that his people recount stories of the coming of the ice, and I have no reason nor scientific evidence to refute him so I take him at his word. That's the best I can do to answer your question.
Quick edit to state...way creepy avatar, Dude!
originally posted by: FishBait
originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
originally posted by: Blue Shift
Since apparently none of the "indigenous" peoples probably evolved there, they pretty much all had to come from somewhere else. Central America was apparently quite the melting pot during and after the last Ice Age when almost everyone headed south to get away from the scrubbing of the rest of North America 12,000 or so years ago. But again, no genetic evidence (so far) of African interbreeding in South America. Is this what the Clovis people looked like?
A friend of mine is an Anishinaabe Elder and Memory Keeper. He tells me that his people recount stories of the coming of the ice, and I have no reason nor scientific evidence to refute him so I take him at his word. That's the best I can do to answer your question.
There are quite a lot of these stories amongst different tribes along with flood stories that scientist are suspecting indicate the fast melting of the glaciers. There is a lot of evidence mounting that the glaciers melted very fast in some areas and caused catastrophic flooding. It's hard for us to imagine the world then, the cost lines were much further out, the Bearing land bridge, heck England wasn't even an island it was part of the European land mass. Then fairly quickly the landscape and climate changed greatly everywhere.
originally posted by: Hanslune
originally posted by: FishBait
originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
originally posted by: Blue Shift
Since apparently none of the "indigenous" peoples probably evolved there, they pretty much all had to come from somewhere else. Central America was apparently quite the melting pot during and after the last Ice Age when almost everyone headed south to get away from the scrubbing of the rest of North America 12,000 or so years ago. But again, no genetic evidence (so far) of African interbreeding in South America. Is this what the Clovis people looked like?
A friend of mine is an Anishinaabe Elder and Memory Keeper. He tells me that his people recount stories of the coming of the ice, and I have no reason nor scientific evidence to refute him so I take him at his word. That's the best I can do to answer your question.
There are quite a lot of these stories amongst different tribes along with flood stories that scientist are suspecting indicate the fast melting of the glaciers. There is a lot of evidence mounting that the glaciers melted very fast in some areas and caused catastrophic flooding. It's hard for us to imagine the world then, the cost lines were much further out, the Bearing land bridge, heck England wasn't even an island it was part of the European land mass. Then fairly quickly the landscape and climate changed greatly everywhere.
If you mean over a period of a thousand year yes, very fast geologically, in a few day/weeks/month or years no. There is a whole heck of a lot of water in the oceans.
The current average depth (if all the water in the ocean was at one 'height' is 3688.08 meters, I believe it rose 120 meters, after the ice age that is 0.03% (1/3 of 1%) increase. I would suggest looking at coral reef growth - the reefs were able to survive because the rise was gradual and they could keep up with it.
originally posted by: Hanslune
originally posted by: Blue Shift
originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
Well the southern-north pattern would come out of the west. As to southern Africa? Never say never.
originally posted by: Blue Shift
originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
originally posted by: Jonjonj
It would make sense that any society to the North would head South during a glacial maximum wouldn't it? Maybe the problem with science is not giving any common sense value to what were, essentially, our ancestors.
Except for those who came from the south.
Or the West across the ocean. Or the East from southern Africa or beyond.
Just thinking of the South Equatorial currents. I don't think there have been any discoveries in genetic tracking that have shown any shared haplotypes or anything between southern Africa and Brazil, but the currents are there. Also, I suppose the southern Africans really didn't do a lot of long-distance seafaring. Some of those Olmec statue heads sure look African, though.
One fact that speaks against a robust naval expertise is that the island just off the coast - but out of sight of Africa were not colonized by the Africans themselves. They got to Madagascar after the Polynesians did.
originally posted by: FishBait
originally posted by: Hanslune
originally posted by: Blue Shift
originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
Well the southern-north pattern would come out of the west. As to southern Africa? Never say never.
originally posted by: Blue Shift
originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
originally posted by: Jonjonj
It would make sense that any society to the North would head South during a glacial maximum wouldn't it? Maybe the problem with science is not giving any common sense value to what were, essentially, our ancestors.
Except for those who came from the south.
Or the West across the ocean. Or the East from southern Africa or beyond.
Just thinking of the South Equatorial currents. I don't think there have been any discoveries in genetic tracking that have shown any shared haplotypes or anything between southern Africa and Brazil, but the currents are there. Also, I suppose the southern Africans really didn't do a lot of long-distance seafaring. Some of those Olmec statue heads sure look African, though.
One fact that speaks against a robust naval expertise is that the island just off the coast - but out of sight of Africa were not colonized by the Africans themselves. They got to Madagascar after the Polynesians did.
Yea, you have to wonder if the Africans just didn't need it. They had this massive continent full of life connected to other massive continents they could explore on foot/canoe then as humans got as far east (like SE Asia East!) they had to up the canoe tech to explore more. I'm sure boat tech continually developed as they explored large river systems and lakes along the way.
originally posted by: Spider879
originally posted by: FishBait
originally posted by: Hanslune
originally posted by: Blue Shift
originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
Well the southern-north pattern would come out of the west. As to southern Africa? Never say never.
originally posted by: Blue Shift
originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
originally posted by: Jonjonj
It would make sense that any society to the North would head South during a glacial maximum wouldn't it? Maybe the problem with science is not giving any common sense value to what were, essentially, our ancestors.
Except for those who came from the south.
Or the West across the ocean. Or the East from southern Africa or beyond.
Just thinking of the South Equatorial currents. I don't think there have been any discoveries in genetic tracking that have shown any shared haplotypes or anything between southern Africa and Brazil, but the currents are there. Also, I suppose the southern Africans really didn't do a lot of long-distance seafaring. Some of those Olmec statue heads sure look African, though.
One fact that speaks against a robust naval expertise is that the island just off the coast - but out of sight of Africa were not colonized by the Africans themselves. They got to Madagascar after the Polynesians did.
Yea, you have to wonder if the Africans just didn't need it. They had this massive continent full of life connected to other massive continents they could explore on foot/canoe then as humans got as far east (like SE Asia East!) they had to up the canoe tech to explore more. I'm sure boat tech continually developed as they explored large river systems and lakes along the way.
Early Holocene human presence in Madagascar
www.abovetopsecret.com...
May wanna take a look here.^^
And while I agree Olmecs weren't Africans, recorded attempts were made by West Africans during the middle ages, a little later, about 200 yrs, during the time of Columbus these same West Africans, were able to defeat Portuguese Caravels on the open seas and rivers, causing them to rethink approaches to trade rather than raids or conquest.
I’m definitely not saying they weren’t sea fairing and skilled just that the need to traverse vast oceans might not have started until we ran out of land and close islands to explore which happened with the Polynesians.
originally posted by: FishBait
originally posted by: Spider879
originally posted by: FishBait
originally posted by: Hanslune
originally posted by: Blue Shift
originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
Well the southern-north pattern would come out of the west. As to southern Africa? Never say never.
originally posted by: Blue Shift
originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
originally posted by: Jonjonj
It would make sense that any society to the North would head South during a glacial maximum wouldn't it? Maybe the problem with science is not giving any common sense value to what were, essentially, our ancestors.
Except for those who came from the south.
Or the West across the ocean. Or the East from southern Africa or beyond.
Just thinking of the South Equatorial currents. I don't think there have been any discoveries in genetic tracking that have shown any shared haplotypes or anything between southern Africa and Brazil, but the currents are there. Also, I suppose the southern Africans really didn't do a lot of long-distance seafaring. Some of those Olmec statue heads sure look African, though.
One fact that speaks against a robust naval expertise is that the island just off the coast - but out of sight of Africa were not colonized by the Africans themselves. They got to Madagascar after the Polynesians did.
Yea, you have to wonder if the Africans just didn't need it. They had this massive continent full of life connected to other massive continents they could explore on foot/canoe then as humans got as far east (like SE Asia East!) they had to up the canoe tech to explore more. I'm sure boat tech continually developed as they explored large river systems and lakes along the way.
Early Holocene human presence in Madagascar
www.abovetopsecret.com...
May wanna take a look here.^^
And while I agree Olmecs weren't Africans, recorded attempts were made by West Africans during the middle ages, a little later, about 200 yrs, during the time of Columbus these same West Africans, were able to defeat Portuguese Caravels on the open seas and rivers, causing them to rethink approaches to trade rather than raids or conquest.
I know but there is a difference between going to Madagascar and the America’s. Madagascar is a jaunt but there is a chain of island from the coast of Africa across to the north end of Madagascar so it’s a little easier than taking off to South America. I’m definitely not saying they weren’t sea fairing and skilled just that the need to traverse vast oceans might not have started until we ran out of land and close islands to explore which happened with the Polynesians. Hope that makes sense.
originally posted by: FishBait
originally posted by: Spider879
originally posted by: FishBait
originally posted by: Hanslune
originally posted by: Blue Shift
originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
Well the southern-north pattern would come out of the west. As to southern Africa? Never say never.
originally posted by: Blue Shift
originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
originally posted by: Jonjonj
It would make sense that any society to the North would head South during a glacial maximum wouldn't it? Maybe the problem with science is not giving any common sense value to what were, essentially, our ancestors.
Except for those who came from the south.
Or the West across the ocean. Or the East from southern Africa or beyond.
Just thinking of the South Equatorial currents. I don't think there have been any discoveries in genetic tracking that have shown any shared haplotypes or anything between southern Africa and Brazil, but the currents are there. Also, I suppose the southern Africans really didn't do a lot of long-distance seafaring. Some of those Olmec statue heads sure look African, though.
One fact that speaks against a robust naval expertise is that the island just off the coast - but out of sight of Africa were not colonized by the Africans themselves. They got to Madagascar after the Polynesians did.
Yea, you have to wonder if the Africans just didn't need it. They had this massive continent full of life connected to other massive continents they could explore on foot/canoe then as humans got as far east (like SE Asia East!) they had to up the canoe tech to explore more. I'm sure boat tech continually developed as they explored large river systems and lakes along the way.
Early Holocene human presence in Madagascar
www.abovetopsecret.com...
May wanna take a look here.^^
And while I agree Olmecs weren't Africans, recorded attempts were made by West Africans during the middle ages, a little later, about 200 yrs, during the time of Columbus these same West Africans, were able to defeat Portuguese Caravels on the open seas and rivers, causing them to rethink approaches to trade rather than raids or conquest.
I know but there is a difference between going to Madagascar and the America’s. Madagascar is a jaunt but there is a chain of island from the coast of Africa across to the north end of Madagascar so it’s a little easier than taking off to South America. I’m definitely not saying they weren’t sea fairing and skilled just that the need to traverse vast oceans might not have started until we ran out of land and close islands to explore which happened with the Polynesians. Hope that makes sense.
originally posted by: peter vlar
originally posted by: FishBait
originally posted by: Spider879
originally posted by: FishBait
originally posted by: Hanslune
originally posted by: Blue Shift
originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
Well the southern-north pattern would come out of the west. As to southern Africa? Never say never.
originally posted by: Blue Shift
originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
originally posted by: Jonjonj
It would make sense that any society to the North would head South during a glacial maximum wouldn't it? Maybe the problem with science is not giving any common sense value to what were, essentially, our ancestors.
Except for those who came from the south.
Or the West across the ocean. Or the East from southern Africa or beyond.
Just thinking of the South Equatorial currents. I don't think there have been any discoveries in genetic tracking that have shown any shared haplotypes or anything between southern Africa and Brazil, but the currents are there. Also, I suppose the southern Africans really didn't do a lot of long-distance seafaring. Some of those Olmec statue heads sure look African, though.
One fact that speaks against a robust naval expertise is that the island just off the coast - but out of sight of Africa were not colonized by the Africans themselves. They got to Madagascar after the Polynesians did.
Yea, you have to wonder if the Africans just didn't need it. They had this massive continent full of life connected to other massive continents they could explore on foot/canoe then as humans got as far east (like SE Asia East!) they had to up the canoe tech to explore more. I'm sure boat tech continually developed as they explored large river systems and lakes along the way.
Early Holocene human presence in Madagascar
www.abovetopsecret.com...
May wanna take a look here.^^
And while I agree Olmecs weren't Africans, recorded attempts were made by West Africans during the middle ages, a little later, about 200 yrs, during the time of Columbus these same West Africans, were able to defeat Portuguese Caravels on the open seas and rivers, causing them to rethink approaches to trade rather than raids or conquest.
I know but there is a difference between going to Madagascar and the America’s. Madagascar is a jaunt but there is a chain of island from the coast of Africa across to the north end of Madagascar so it’s a little easier than taking off to South America. I’m definitely not saying they weren’t sea fairing and skilled just that the need to traverse vast oceans might not have started until we ran out of land and close islands to explore which happened with the Polynesians. Hope that makes sense.
The biggest issue I take with this interpretation is that your focus is solely on HSS. If sailing to islands that were out of sight of land was a last ditch resort for resources, then why did Neanderthal beat HSS to pretty much every island in the Mediterranean and off the coast of North Africa and the Middle East? It ceetainly wasnt for lack of resources based on all kf the evidence ive studied.