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USA & Israel's Ugly Past - Did You Forget They Are State Sponsors of Terror?

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posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 11:16 AM
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We all would like to see a better world. I am expecting my first grandson
in May. I do not wish him to be born into such hatred as we live in today.
I shutter in horror at the mere thought that someday a suicide bomber may one day walk into his classroom or step on his school bus. This is the reality we live in. Muslems in Iraq cannot even bury their dead without a radical walking into a Mosque and killing over forty people. This isn't a result of America's secret agenda or America's interference in Iraq. This is the result of decades of radical teachings to young minds. You cannot fight this cancer with kindness. You say America isn't the country that you dream it could be, hell it's never been. Our land was taken from the Natives by force and through Government sponsored genocide. Slave labor(Chinese, Irish and African) were used to make us a World Economic power. The Fathers of our Country and Authors of our Declaration of Independence were slave owners. We never wanted to enter either WW and would have stayed out if we were not dragged into it. But with all that is wrong with America there is still lot that is right. We are a free willed people that is made up of many races, cultures and religions. We bicker among ourselves but unite against common foes. Our favorite pass time is arguing politics.
Our government however you see it is made up of freely elected repesentatives. Majority still rules in this country regardless of contrary belief. There is no such thing as Utopia, at least no on this planet. Nor could anything like that exist simply because everyone has their own idea of what it consist of. The best thing about America is if I don't agree with my countries policies then I have the power of my vote. But where you and I differ the most is that I am not convinced that America is as bad as you and others make it out to be. There is much that needs improving. But it will not be done on ATS or by an irate American citizen living in China. It will be done by Americans that see it as their duty to get involved. First you must vote, then if you do not like the policies that are being made then you run for office or find a candidate that represents your ideals and work to get them elected. America is still a government buy the people for the people and a lot of so called citizens have forgotten that! It is easy to set back at a distance and find fault. It is called an armchair Quarterback. I respect your opinion and I respect you right to have said opinion. But I do not respect people who complain about the way things are and have never made any effort to correct what is wrong. No one in this country will ever say we have all the answers. But I will say that one individual with an idea can be heard and can make a difference. Sure there will be obstacles, set backs and failures, It is called life. But with diligence and hard work great things can be accomplished. Debating issues has its place but there comes a time when one must roll up their sleeves and get involved. Once you have sweat and bled to make this a better country then we can debate its short comings. Actions have always spoke louder than words. You say you are a youth, there is a popular song on the Radio right now that goes, 'You only have a hundred years to live'. Don't spend you time ridiculing America. Get involved, make a difference. You owe it to you grandfathers and you owe it to yourself.

[edit on 11-3-2005 by Yorga]




posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 11:19 AM
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You move to China because the US was being disingenous? Why China? To me that would make you a hypocrite. Why not Monaco or Tongo or New Zealand, sure none of these nations are as "bad" as the US or China.

Perhaps the US is a bit of a monster only because it fought monsters for so long.

Nietzche: "He that fights with monsters should look to himself that he does not become a monster."











Originally posted by 00PS

Originally posted by xmotex

On "patriotism": "My country right or wrong" is phony patriotism, fascistic absolute loyalty to the State. Real patriots are those that seek to make sure that America lives up to the ideals it is supposed to stand for, not the idiots that wave flags and shout down dissidents every time the government does something abysmally stupid or unethical. If there are "traitors" in our midst they are those who would replace our democratic, pluralistic society with one that demands absolute obedience and uniformity of belief. And looking around, it seems to me these traitors are winning.



Welcome to ATS, sadly you will find many of these 'traitors' you speak of here. I am constantly attacked as Anti American and I can understand how they see me. You stated the truth very well thank you!

[edit on 11-3-2005 by 00PS]



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 11:33 AM
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Yorga: Thanks, and while I can appreciate your opinion I can also agree with it. Before I left USA I had a conversation with an ex-girlfriend's father. He is a Irishman, his father immigrated. He was Malcom X's friend. He has fought before, for a better USA and still continues to do so.

He told me the battle is 'here'. I disagreed. And still do. I am watching, from afar albiet, however I am young. And the perspective I am getting in another country, on the otherside of the world, with so many similarites to the USA most Americans could not fathom. I'm learning. That's why I'm here.

Yorga, I understand about the armchair quarterback. I can't tell you a life story in a nutshell but let me just say I was so ideal when I was young about becoming involved in the USA. Coast Guard, Senator, President. A life's plan lined up at the age of 11. Disillusion. Protesting and Demonstrations in the USA don't help. I know, I've been beat, gassed and shot by police. Why? That can be argued, however I never broke any law.

So I take a break and study and learn and have only found ATS 4 months ago as a way to question thoughts. I put things out there in the public forum for discussion. Oddly too many people don't act like I, they see each and every post as a representation of themselves and should post accordingly. I, a trained Lincoln Douglas debater have learned the skills to argue the affirmative and negative side of any arguement.

I am here to learn, contribute and overall - communicate.

Thanks for your replies.




Apollyon - Why did I come to China? I don't know...I wanted to go out of the USA to open my mind when I was 20 and when I was 22 a friend called me and said he had a plane ticket for me.....the rest is history.



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 02:58 PM
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OOPS
All the examples of America supporting terrorism originally listed seem to revolve around alleged CIA support of groups who committed acts of violence against non-combatants.

What the CIA does in support of various geo-political forces in various parts of the world cannot be construed or labeled as "America" supporting terrorism. The CIA is an extension of the executive branch, which is transitory, and it does not always operate with either the full or even partial support of the public, congress, or the judiciary for that matter. Some CIA operations and support of groups have even been counter to existing CIA policy and direction.

Presidents and senior members of congress to not condone or support the murdering of innocent persons to make political statements, unless it is in the context of a military operation against a hostile foreign nation, in which case civilian deaths may be expected as a possible negative side effect of the military operation itself. Rarely do these operations take place without at least some popular public support.

Our system of government, and the broad public at large, has consistently shown a rejection of murder for political purposes, and in those rare occasions where this kind of illegality has been alleged, people have been investigated and charged as appropriate. Although you may not believe it to be so, there is a system of accountability in place which puts in check our government regarding terrorist-like activities. Now, just because the system of accountability exists, that doesn't necessarily mean that on occasion there have been violations and deviation from these rules. When this happens, the appropriate heads have rolled.

In our society at least we have the ability to question the actions and motivations of our government, and their political / foreign policy. If find it ironic that you have chosen to live in a place that forbids the very right (criticism of the government) that you used, albeit unsuccessfully, to push you political agenda. Our system of government and society are not perfect, but at least our system has the flexibility and openess to allow change and growth, unlike the place for which you now reside. In China, accountability is only for the peasants, city workers, and the proletariat in general, not for the communist cronies who dictate such things as how many children you may have, or wher you can and cannot go.

From the overall tone and style of your orignal post, I would be willing to bet that you have a more-than-fleeting interest with socialism, Karl Marx, Lenin, and Mao. Perhaps you have indeed found a new home. For your sake, I just hope they do not decide that ATS is a "subversive" web site, and decide to ban it, which in that case would rob me of your reply.........



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 03:11 PM
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Experience in Experiments are worth in the cause called life. All to many are involved in the sustainment of a status quo called society.

Where my path leads me no one knows not even I. It is ironic I haven't chosen but got the chance to live in a life in China and took it. It is Ironic I live in a country where most Americans feel it's tyrannical and restricitve yet I feel free'er than USA. The only protest that I was successful in was in China when a community protested the building of a Cellphone tower and we won. There have been many protests in my city, of course you won't read about them in the papers, your media is too controlled. It is ironic I live in a place that people think is bad yet in fact is good. The world is not like a coin, it is more like a dice. There is no heads or tails, there are 1 through 6 and while each has it's own value and worth they are seperate and cannot really be compared.

If you notice I never once used the world 'terrorism' in my post. That is wrong and should be avoided because it is a term used by 'them' to label others. Your defensive posture at the US being labled a supporter of terrorism is proof of this. I state the US and ISRAEL are State Sponsors of Terror. Understanding this statement you will see that any branch of the government that supports people who committ acts of terror are therefore guilty. What's the difference you say? Well terror 'ism' implies some sort of ideology behind it. Quite frankly that US uses terror tactics for all sorts of political and financial gain, there is no ideology behind it, it's pure consequentialism to them.



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 03:23 PM
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In so far as I understand, China does not protect speech or have a "free" internet. Therefore, if OOPS is posting from China, surely he is constrained to post the Communist Party line or die a painful, lingering death.

[edit on 05/3/11 by GradyPhilpott]



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 04:05 PM
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Oops, great post, I feel you.

I haven't looked up any other examples, but I can go off the top of my head.

1. A couple of states actually BACKED the KKK during the civil rights movement. If you don't consider the klan a terrorist group you're deluding yourself.

2. If you call terrorism by someone you put into power terrorism, then Saddam and Bin Laden both link back to the US. And before someone argues with that, consider the ways in which God supposedly works...



3. I guess this isn't terrorism, but there are numerous examples of the US govt doing bad things to its own people, including testing new weapons, bad vaccines, and other "experiments."

I might come back later with more, but why bother. How come all the people who disagree with you talk about every other country's dirt? That's a juvenile response to your post. ("Well, they do it too, so it doesn't matter!" :lol
They still don't get the point of your post, that everyone else's dirt except US and Israel's is highlighted in the media.

I did notice that not much of an effort was put into discrediting the validity of your post. Guess the truth hurts...



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 04:06 PM
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Ok, here it is:

America and it's government is not perfect. Yes it's made plenty of mistakes and yes some are documented.


There. It's been admitted.


Happy now?
Can we move on with our lives now?
That is what you wanted right OOPS?

If not, what is the point of all your posts?



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 06:14 PM
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Originally posted by skippytjc
This is an official hijacking of your thread. From now on I will post examples of other nations exhibiting state sponsored terrorism. And that’s MY AGENDA.

First up:

CHINA,

BBC reports:
Taiwan's President, Chen Shui-bian, has described China's threats against his island as a form of terrorism. "The terror and threat posed to Taiwan's people has virtually exceeded those brought by any terrorist attacks," Mr Chen said….

Cato.org reports:
"For years, China has exported sensitive military technology to countries that have been sponsors of terrorism. Recipients of such sales include Iran, Iraq and Syria..."

falungong.org reports
"Chinese Government Official Sued in Spain for Crimes of Torture and Genocide. ...During Jia Qinglin's tenure in office, innumerable atrocities were committed against Falun Gong practitioners. Deaths included that of Wang Lixuan, a mother, and her 8-month old son who together were tortured to death. He is also directly responsible for the illegal detention of countless Falun Gong practitioners in Beijing...."

And on and on and on...




Start your own thread then. The information you provide here is available in the media because it is being rammed down our throats. The point of this thread is to discuss what no one wants to discuss, mainly the terror supporting acts of the US & Isreal. Any time someone wants to point these types of things out, ex military come out all offended and drunk on patriotism. I am really sick of hearing the line "I dont agree with what you say, but I defended your right to say it". Give me a break. If people are too blind to hold their own country accountable for their actions, then they might as well be in a facist state.



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 06:56 PM
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Question, since you claim to be an American that has moved to China:
Does China support and sanction terror and terrorist or is it also simply a terrorist sponsoring nation?

Opppppssss, forgot, you wanted to concentrate specifically on the US and Israel. Agenda driven, aren't you?


That's irelevent; his thread is in regards to Israel and American state terrorism, not Chinese. Had he stated otherwise, you may have been able to make a point, however, you simply diverted and created a cop-out. The Chinese may conduct terrorist activities against thier own citizenry, and those of other soveriegns, however, that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.




In so far as I understand, China does not protect speech or have a "free" internet. Therefore, if OOPS is posting from China, surely he is constrained to post the Communist Party line or die a painful, lingering death.


Once again, this has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Why can't people stay on topic without diverting attention to irellevent issues such as his current residence?




From the overall tone and style of your orignal post, I would be willing to bet that you have a more-than-fleeting interest with socialism, Karl Marx, Lenin, and Mao. Perhaps you have indeed found a new home. For your sake, I just hope they do not decide that ATS is a "subversive" web site, and decide to ban it, which in that case would rob me of your reply.........



Since when does socialism par with Marxian, Lenin and Moasist style communism? Sweden and many North Eastern European countries are democratic socialist countries with capitalist economies, yet are ranked as the greatest countries to reside within; how does one construe the Communist ideology of Marx and his subsequent followers -whe flipped his world ontop his head- to that of Socialism?


China, Cuba, and North Korea are stuck in the third phase of Marxian communism: Proletariat dictatorship. Theoreticly, this phase would be overcome by the withering away of the soveriegn, of course, this failed to happen as the human element forbid.





What the CIA does in support of various geo-political forces in various parts of the world cannot be construed or labeled as "America" supporting terrorism. The CIA is an extension of the executive branch, which is transitory, and it does not always operate with either the full or even partial support of the public, congress, or the judiciary for that matter. Some CIA operations and support of groups have even been counter to existing CIA policy and direction.


Regardless of this, it is still a branch of the American Goverment and wholly accountable against the law. Regardless of thier mechanical and ideological eminence, nobody has refuted OOPS proposition that the CIA has ebetted such activities as stated.



Presidents and senior members of congress to not condone or support the murdering of innocent persons to make political statements, unless it is in the context of a military operation against a hostile foreign nation, in which case civilian deaths may be expected as a possible negative side effect of the military operation itself. Rarely do these operations take place without at least some popular public support.


Yet, they would illegaly invade foriegn countries without substantial pretexts all in the name of freedom and liberty spreading democracy to a country with a different socio-poitical atmosphere of it's own which has constantly and still continues to reject western internvention; and all with the public support, which may I add, was vehemently propounded with a steady dose of fear and anxiety ejaculated by the liberal media. Public support for such activities does not nessecarily presuppose that it is the just option for one to use, as we have seen the last few decades in Veitnam and Iraq, and we are seeing in Iran -- as the current administration is trying to propound puesdo-intel in regards to North Korea and Irans nuclear activities which have already come under harsh scrutiny.

Will anyone refute him? These Circumstantial Ad Hominem remarks are irrelevent.

Deep



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 08:53 AM
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Thank you LogansRun and ZeroDeep

This is the situation ladies and gentlemen. The propaganda machine does not want you to know the truth. These 6 tidbits of information I gave you are nothing. I started this thread in hopes of having other members contribute the knowledge they have so we can build a cornacopia of information and a broader u nderstanding of the ways the USA and ISRAEL are State Sponsors of Terror.

Without the Mass Media being able to explain it to us, we are left to fend for ourselves in the sea of lies and misinformation. The truth is out there. We must seek it and spread it to those who doubt us or argue us with indeniable support for the system.



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 09:02 AM
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Originally posted by 00PS
Without the Mass Media being able to explain it to us, we are left to fend for ourselves in the sea of lies and misinformation. The truth is out there. We must seek it and spread it to those who doubt us or argue us with indeniable support for the system.


Oh how i wish i had another vote for way above...

Once again 00PS, you're not afraid to touch a topic that so many others simply refuse to even admit is really there.



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 11:42 AM
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Originally posted by 00PS
What Is A Terrorist?



And what about the Arabs in Palestine? Didn't you mentined them by chance or by choice? Suicide bombers against civilians? Bombs in restorants/buses/schools? Murdering in purpose babies and women?

What about Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Sudan, Iran, Russia, Chechnya, China, Congo, Angola, Nigeria, Britain, and many others.

I think Israel has the right to fight back against the Arab terror. Puting the Sabra and Shatila case infront of Israel shows most of all that you have nothing really against her.



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 11:54 AM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
Question, since you claim to be an American that has moved to China:
Does China support and sanction terror and terrorist or is it also simply a terrorist sponsoring nation?

Opppppssss, forgot, you wanted to concentrate specifically on the US and Israel. Agenda driven, aren't you?





seekerof

Ah come one seekerof, I think the title of the thread doesn't mention China at all. Yes we sponsor terrorism. Israel is a terrorist nation. IS that difficult for you to admit? I hope you aren't going to try to hijack the thread by some ridiculous comparison to China.



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 12:24 PM
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Originally posted by De All
And what about the Arabs in Palestine? Didn't you mentined them by chance or by choice? Suicide bombers against civilians? Bombs in restorants/buses/schools? Murdering in purpose babies and women?

What about Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Sudan, Iran, Russia, Chechnya, China, Congo, Angola, Nigeria, Britain, and many others.

I think Israel has the right to fight back against the Arab terror. Puting the Sabra and Shatila case infront of Israel shows most of all that you have nothing really against her.

arabs in palestine?

who "invaded" the land of palestina in the year 1947 under the cover of U.N.?



On 29 November 1947 the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine, a plan to resolve the Arab-Jewish conflict in the British Mandate of Palestine, was approved by the United Nations General Assembly, at the UN World Headquarters in New York. The plan partitioned the territory into Jewish and Arab states, with the Greater Jerusalem area (encompassing Bethlehem) coming under international control. The failure of this plan led to the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.



some politician men gather and decide the faith of millions of people?
they make a plan and then the failure of this plan results in an arab-israeli war?
great job!
since this great resoulution there have been nuthing but wars here, and the first victims are ofcourse civilians. those civilians become refugees and have to leave home and their land and escape to another country. these refugees then form their own "resistance movements", since they have no choice left! they are under enemy occupation for decades! and isreal is responsibl for the birth af most of "militant islamic groups" (you probably call them terrorists), such as hamas, hezbollah, plo.

suicide bombers against civilians? bombs in restorants/buses/schools? murdering in purpose babies and women?

tanks against children with stones?





I think Israel has the right to fight back against the Arab terror.

and i think that the "arabs" have the right to defend themselves and FIGHT BACK, when they are under attack. and that resolves nothing! it is a never ending story. eye for an eye. how are we going to end it? you have any ideas, instead of "killing more arabs infidels"? any more "peacefull" ideas? can jews and arabs ever live togather after all that has happened?



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 12:30 PM
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Originally posted by 00PS
JudahMaccabbi

It's not Arab states, it's everwhere. It's in USA and ISRAEL.
Sharon is the head of Israel, he's a terrorist.
USA officials who have been accused of supporting state
terror have been promoted too. It's not just Arabs.

How can you be so un-knowledgeable about this.


OK granted - One mans freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.
OK Sharon has a shady past that preceeds Lebanon even.

With that said:
A- Israel and the Palestinians are in a peace process with the Palestinians. Even if you take all of the Palestinian claims as true and neglect all of what Israel says (their line of defense). Wouldn't it be fair for the Palestinians to STOP their militant (there I didn't use terrorist) activities? Since OSLO 1 Palestinian militantism (there it is again) should have stopped - the PLO should have reined in all militant (again) organizations - For the sake of peace. But again the attack of civilian targets have not stopped - why because the Palestinians do not want peace with Israel but Israel itself. So that leaves Israel needing to defend it self from the military aggression against non-military targets (by the way - that is terrorism).
B- Israel does not send soldiers to blow-up buses with children knowing that there are children in a bus. The Palestinians know that as well so to get world attention to Israeli 'attrocities' Palestinian gunmen fire at soldiers behind stone-throwing childern ( www.operationsick.com... ), they transport suicide bombers in ambulances (trying to get a link for this was almost impossible - I guess mainstream news doesn't want to inflate the disgrace of the Palestinians but plug this in google - palestinian bomber ambulance RAMA BRIDGE). Palestinian snipers target children in order to instigate an Israeli retaliation during an Arab summit to provide the Palestinians more support for their 'cause' (ooh another doozy - No mainstream press coverage exept for a cached link from Japanese news - cached because it no longer exists on that Japanese website - WHY???? = 64.233.161.104...:x6KH1XQGb-kJ:www.japantoday.com/gidx/news4687.html+shalhevet+pas+summit&hl=en&lr=lang_en|lang_iw%20target=nw - look up 'shalhevet pas summit' on google).
Regarding Palestinian attrocities the list goes on and on. What I am trying to say here is that in my view terrorism is not that Noam Chompsky crappy definition of using a military force against civilians for political reasons but targeting non-combatants as a military strategy for political gain. This Israel does not do - when Israel kills non-combatants it is because:
1- Unwanted collateral damage as a result of military action against combatants (this should be minimized).
2- Self-defense: Few soldiers are faced by a raging populace and they use lethal force to get out of that situation. See the Ramallah lynch - had these soldiers been MISTAARVIM (special infiltrator forces) as the Palestinians claim they would have never been lynched in the Palestinian Police station.
3- Misidentification
4- Murder - Some cases were uncovered when soldiers killed an Arab out of hatred - In most cases they were brought to trial and punished.

Therefore, defining terrorism as targeting non-combatants as a military strategy for political gain places the Arab countries in a new light which defines them outright as terrorist countries.



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 12:31 PM
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This Forum Thread Is Not About Who Has The Right To Fight

What about.................................. What about your grandfathers grandfather in World War One, or My Great Great Grandfather in the Civil War? Why Not talk about evolution and the creation of the world? Why Not? Because that's not the topic PEOPLE!!!

It looks to me as some people have not just forgotten the topic of the thread but they've also forgotton USA and ISRAEL are State Sponsors of Terror. That, or they never knew.

The Title of the post USA & ISRAEL's Ugly Past - Did You Forget They Are State Sponsors of Terror? Please Stay On-Topic

And Grady Philpot - you don't have a clue about China. I suggest you start your own thread inviting members to share their information about China to you. Don't worry I won't go in your thread and make dumb statements.



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 12:34 PM
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Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
[4- Murder - Some cases were uncovered when soldiers killed an Arab out...


Is IDF murdered my Classmate. An American citizen, born and raised. They ran over her with a bulldozer - on purpose.

TERROR!!!

What is Terror? The message Israel Sends to anyone who stands up for Palestinian rights. They send this message back home in a casket to my college : """ WARNING AMERICAN PEACE ACTIVISTS *** DO NOT GO TO ISRAEL *** THE ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCE WILL KILL YOU """



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 12:43 PM
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The Israelis are full of deceit and hidden agendas with the complete backing of America. Non Israeli and Non American lives have no value to these people and the tidal wave of hate which they have generated against Islam is the fruition of the dreams of many American and Israeli Jews.



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 12:45 PM
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Originally posted by Seeker of Truth
The Israelis are full of deceit and hidden agendas with the complete backing of America. Non Israeli and Non American lives have no value to these people and the tidal wave of hate which they have generated against Islam is the fruition of the dreams of many American and Israeli Jews.


Are you new here? If you are it's great to see you here! Thanks for your contribution. It is true that the hate that has been generated against Islam both by Israelis Americans and Arabs alike is a dream come true for Christian and Jewish Extremists that want another great battle in the hopes of conquering more spoils of war.



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