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USA & Israel's Ugly Past - Did You Forget They Are State Sponsors of Terror?

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posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 01:00 PM
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Originally posted by 00PS

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
[4- Murder - Some cases were uncovered when soldiers killed an Arab out...


Is IDF murdered my Classmate. An American citizen, born and raised. They ran over her with a bulldozer - on purpose.

TERROR!!!

What is Terror? The message Israel Sends to anyone who stands up for Palestinian rights. They send this message back home in a casket to my college : """ WARNING AMERICAN PEACE ACTIVISTS *** DO NOT GO TO ISRAEL *** THE ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCE WILL KILL YOU """


I am sorry to hear of this - It must be upsetting to say the least - but being extreme and jumping to conclusions based on personal bias is outright wrong. Firstly, do NOT call her a peace activist but a Pro-Palestinian activist. Home demolitions in Rafa occur because (1) terrorists that commited a terrorist outrage lived in that home (this is a small pucishment in light of the act - a house you can rebuild but a murdered family member you cannot ressurect) (2) the house or housing complex is used to hid smuggling tunnels for Palestinian militant who use their weapon not for peace but war.
Therefore she was a PRO-PALESTINIAN activist.
2- Depending on who you believe the truth, as each sides calls it , can be VERY different. Here is the other sides story - www.alisrael.com...
Seems very far from murder doesn't it?
I guess having my friend injured in a Jerusalem Cafe for the crime of being JEWISH is less offensive then being killed while defending the homes of weapon runners and terrorists - Its all in the eye of the beholder.




posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 01:08 PM
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My friend was an innocent bystander.

And don't tell me standing in from of a

Doctors home is Pro-Palestinian Activism

It's Pro-Children, Human-Life Activism.

You don't see Palestinians Bulldozing

Israeli Hospitals do you? No!



All Citizens of Israel Serve in the IDF unless

Exempted. Israel has a very aggressive

settlement policy as well as Jewish

Outreach Program - Birthright.

The Palestinians are losing their land

daily.

You're friend got injured. Some

Peoples Friends have been Murdered.

Israelis can stand up and stop the violence

better than the Palestinians can, yet

most demonstrations are for the keeping

of the settlements. Pretty right winged

if you ask me.

This thread is not to discuss who is right

and who can fight. This thread is to discuss

the fact that ISRAEL and the USA are

State Supporters of Terror - are you

saying you disagree?



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 01:27 PM
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Oops, you are anti American. You need to see that anti American does not mean you see the world more clearly. It does not mean you are more sensitive or aware. Just Anti American.

SAbra And Chatila? Hello ? 20-30 years ago?. If the PAlestinians can deal with that war criminal so can we. We dealt with Yasser, remember? You probably called him the legitimate Plaestinian leader right? Two words Achille Laro.

Contras? Hello, they were patriots who ended Commie rule and stopped the threat that the Sandinistas presented.

You are just a coffe shop liberal with just enough information to shame yourself.



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 01:28 PM
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Your last post was especially aggravating since it is CLASSICAL ARAB/MUSLIM DECEPTION, rewriting of history, blatant lies and unbelievable CRAP.
1- Your history lesson of the creation of Israel is true. Yes Israel was created by the UN - Granting Jews their first homeland in approximately 2000 years which I guess in your view is a crime against humanity - there aren't enough Muslim/Arab countries in the world?
2- Israel was attacked by the surrounding Muslim/Arab states immediately upon the declaration of Independance (why do you think they did that?)
3- The Palestinian refugee 'problem' was created by the Arab/Muslim world: First they told the Palestinian Arabs to leave their lands so that the Jews could be pushed into the sea and then when they didn't succeed the Arab/Muslim states did not let the refugees return to their homes or absorb them into their own coutries - hence the Palestinian refugee 'problem'. Fact is that the Arab countries themselves CREATED those militant (as you would prefer to call them) organizations.
4- Really nice photographs with children against tanks - fact is that those tanks were called in not to stop that child from throwing a stone but because some Muslim TERRORIST groups (with the help of the Palestinian Authority) performed numerous, relentless terrorist outrages against Civilian populations including Bar-Mitzva parties, Russian immigrant dance clubs, pool halls, by Synagogues, restaurants, school buses and the list goes on and on. Of course you call that defending.

Can arabs and jews live together? I think we can. All that is needed is for the Arab world to accept Israel as a Jewish state. Israel is ready for concessions but not any that will endanger the Jewish state idea meaning no to the Right for Return. After almost 60 years of war Israel cannot accept this - return of various lands Yes, Right of Return, NO. I think that Arabs sould concede as well - After all 100 years of terrorism and population transfer of Jews must require some kind of concession.



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 01:48 PM
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Originally posted by boogerYou are just a coffe shop liberal with just enough information to shame yourself.


And you can get the hell out of here with an attitude like that...

who the @#$ do you think you are that you can call people names like that.

Who asked you to come in here and speak? No one, if you don't have anything to say on topic than leave...

quit wasting space.


[edit on 12-3-2005 by 00PS]



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 01:50 PM
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Originally posted by 00PS
My friend was an innocent bystander.

And don't tell me standing in from of a

Doctors home is Pro-Palestinian Activism

It's Pro-Children, Human-Life Activism.

You don't see Palestinians Bulldozing

Israeli Hospitals do you? No!



All Citizens of Israel Serve in the IDF unless

Exempted. Israel has a very aggressive

settlement policy as well as Jewish

Outreach Program - Birthright.

The Palestinians are losing their land

daily.

You're friend got injured. Some

Peoples Friends have been Murdered.

Israelis can stand up and stop the violence

better than the Palestinians can, yet

most demonstrations are for the keeping

of the settlements. Pretty right winged

if you ask me.

This thread is not to discuss who is right

and who can fight. This thread is to discuss

the fact that ISRAEL and the USA are

State Supporters of Terror - are you

saying you disagree?


MOST DEFINATELY YES. OK let me clarify -

unequivocally, definately and just place uh-huh.

Israel does not target non-combatants as a military strategy for political gain

They do beat the crap out of terrorists and their leaders though and as in many

military actions civilians are regretably killed as occured with your friend.

I still do stand by my claim that she was no peace activist. Did she ever visit the

house of a Jew who was killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber? How about

defend the homes of the citizens in GILLO, Jerusalem that were shot at

daily from Beit-Jallah. As far as I can see if she would have done that she

probably would have been killed much faster.

If All Israelis did not serve in the military unless exempt Israel would have been

pushed to the sea long ago!!! Therefore mandatory military service is needed.

Jews have lost there land all over Arab countries for decades since Israel's

creation and before it. See the Silent Exodus by Pierre Rehov.

There are too many Israeli left wing protestors in Israel coughing up European

crap about oppression, occupation and all the rest of that crap that literally

makes me sick. By the way Sharon's Gov't is planning a unilaterial withdrawl

from Gaza and N. West bank.

- So make getting a grip on reality a Chinese new year's resolution

for yourself.



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 01:59 PM
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Wow, Chinese new year resolution eh? I am reminded of a Right Wing Israeli nut case like that one that Assassinated your leader not too long ago.

Anything for Zion

There is no point talking in this thread anymore as you Judah and Booger have brought stupid remarks here and degrading bigotry by bring China into this....because I am in China?

Where are you Judah? In Israel? Make your Israeli New Year Resolution to stop the murder of Americans and Arabs alike by the IDF...And Booger, Make it your American New Year Resolution to try to think positive for a change.

A grip on reality? The only reality here is that you 2 cannot converse civily with others. It's your right to be anal....so be it

I'm outtie....................

YOU HAVEN'T JUST FOGOTON,

[Size=6]YOU ARE IN DENIAL ISRAEL AND USA ARE STATE SPONSORS OF TERROR

[edit on 12-3-2005 by 00PS]



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 02:07 PM
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LOOK more "EVEDENCE" showing realy UGLY PAST,PRESENT (and from the way things are going) FUTURE also judicial-inc.biz...

[edit on 12-3-2005 by SiberianTiger]



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 02:36 PM
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Originally posted by 00PS
Wow, Chinese new year resolution eh? I am reminded of a Right Wing Israeli nut case like that one that Assassinated your leader not too long ago.

Anything for Zion

There is no point talking in this thread anymore as you Judah and Booger have brought stupid remarks here and degrading bigotry by bring China into this....because I am in China?

Where are you Judah? In Israel? Make your Israeli New Year Resolution to stop the murder of Americans and Arabs alike by the IDF...And Booger, Make it your American New Year Resolution to try to think positive for a change.

A grip on reality? The only reality here is that you 2 cannot converse civily with others. It's your right to be anal....so be it

I'm outtie....................

YOU HAVEN'T JUST FOGOTON,

[Size=6]YOU ARE IN DENIAL ISRAEL AND USA ARE STATE SPONSORS OF TERROR

[edit on 12-3-2005 by 00PS]


Yes I am in Israel and Damn proud of it. I am also a proud American as well. Nice formatting in your post above - I think I'll make my new years resolution to learn to fomat posts like that. I am sorry if I wasn't sufficiently civil with you. But unjustifiably screaming murder is not too civil as well. You may want to believe that the US and Israel are state sponsors of terror but that may be in a misaligned sort of way.

When the US attacks IRAQ who gassed its own people in the 80s (yes the US supported IRAQ in order to keep the Iranians on their feet), Conquered Kuwait in the 90s (Raped, pillaged and murdered Kuwatis along the way - and by the way with the help of MANY Palestinians - your favorite) and terrorized his own population to keep them in line (common practice in the Arab/Muslim world - Therefore in your eyes it may be acceptable) I do not loose sleep over it. I am happy that the world is a better place without the likes of Saddam Hussein calling the shots in the Middle East.

When the US fights Islamic terrorists as the world's forerunner on fighting Islamic terrorism it is a blessed thing that the US HAS THE BALLS to do what no-one else would dare. My guess is that only the US has the resources and the energy reserves to engage in such a war. The remaining world is reliant on Arab oil for to sustain their economy. That gives much leverage to the Arabs. You talk about right wing - show me an Arab Left wing in Iran, Syria, Saadam Hussien era Iraq or Taliban era Afghanistan. Israel and the US are drenched with Left wing where are they in the Arab/Muslim coutries. Don't you think that Syria, Saudi Arabia, Pro-Syrian Lebanon, Iran, even Egypt are RIGHT WING? Most of these coutries actively take part in ethnic cleansing of their own populations (Lebanon was once mostly Christian) and financing the systematic murder of Jews in Israel and other places in the world.
What do you consider right wing or terrorism? Settlement activities in the West Bank or Gaza or targeting civilians as a strategy for political gain (e.g. blowing up children in a schoolbus, shooting up a Bar-mitzvah party or blowing up a Passover religious festival.)

And by the way I am sorry for insulting you since it gave you legitimacy to squirm away from the issues I posted earlier.



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 03:08 PM
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Originally posted by SiberianTiger
LOOK more "EVEDENCE" showing realy UGLY PAST,PRESENT (and from the way things are going) FUTURE also judicial-inc.biz...

[edit on 12-3-2005 by SiberianTiger]


OOOOH - It seems like Israel is Behind everything isn't it. I guess Hitler was right about them. That website even says that Israel was behind the Mosul bombing and provided very indepth analsyis for example:


The bomb was sophisticated and the target was psychological which points to the Mossad


Oooh, you gotta see the genious there.

or how about this:

The injuries were due to ball bearings which rule out rockets, mortar, truck bombs, etc.


Just like all Palestinian/Hizbuallah bombs? Saying it may be Iraqi insurgents backed by Syria who infiltrated the US base under guise of a service contractor with an explosive device typical of Hezbullah is just to simple or maybe does not suit the Jew haters around the world.
But I guess blaming the Jews is easiler, they are only 15 million world wide and they have no oil.



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 03:15 PM
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Juddah I can understand your ignorance. That's why I choose to still communicate with you.

Who ever started Jew Bashing in this forum thread. Odd it's you, the one who claims to be in Israel.

No one said anything was all Israel's fault. Just because some thinks Mossad doesn't mean they are a 'Jew Hater'. Do you really feel hated?

There were many Jewish kids at my school. A minority had a majority at a college of only 4000 or so it seemed. Seemed by their Superiority Complex. Much I can say about you. Do you feel superior that you are Jewish? That Israel has the right to do anything in the Name of Zion?

And just because I question your Jewry doesn't mean I hate Jews. My best friend is Jewish and went to Israel on Birthright but went home because he said it was not as cool as USA...bottom line you should check yourself. The way your statements are you sound like a fundmental zionist extrimist.

[edit on 12-3-2005 by 00PS]



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 03:37 PM
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first of all,

You have voted 00PS for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.


now: the fact that both Israel and the US have sponsored and continue to sponsor terrorism around the world is undeniable. However, we must ask ourselves, besides for the obvious (oil and natural resources), what do Israel and the US gain from such overt aggression? The US has had a thriving business of toppling democratically elected heads of state and replacing them with dictators in south american countries for decades, and in the process they turned south america into a 'favourable investment climate' for american corporations. Fascist regimes have a way of providing cheap labour and compliant workers, hallmarks of corporate success.

Now, we turn to Israel. Unlike the US (except for 9/11, which was pissweak compared to the hell that the US has wrought), Israel has been feeling the retaliation of its policies on its own soil. Thankfully, the world is starting to sit up and take notice. The sympathy card is getting more and more difficult to play. If we can't fully remove the blight on the world knows as Israel, we can at least make it pay for its transgressions. And yet, we have no reason as to what Israel gains from its continuing policies of violence and apatheid against the palestinian people. Perhaps the huge US 'aid' is enough. perhaps not.



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 03:43 PM
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Originally posted by 00PS
Juddah I can understand your ignorance. That's why I choose to still communicate with you.

Who ever started Jew Bashing in this forum thread. Odd it's you, the one who claims to be in Israel.

No one said anything was all Israel's fault. Just because some thinks Mossad doesn't mean they are a 'Jew Hater'. Do you really feel hated?

There were many Jewish kids at my school. A minority had a majority at a college of only 4000 or so it seemed. Seemed by their Superiority Complex. Much I can say about you. Do you feel superior that you are Jewish? That Israel has the right to do anything in the Name of Zion?

And just because I question your Jewry doesn't mean I hate Jews. My best friend is Jewish and went to Israel on Birthright but went home because he said it was not as cool as USA...bottom line you should check yourself. The way your statements are you sound like a fundmental zionist extrimist.

[edit on 12-3-2005 by 00PS]


Actually, If you would have read the SIberianTigers post and link maybe things would have been clearer. No Jew or Israel bashing by me but in general his link blames 9/11 on the Mossad - I dug in a bit more (AS I NORMALLY DO) and got to the Mosul bombing. Guess what? There too the Mossad was blamed. I never said you where Jew bashing just SiberianTiger.
No I never felt a superiority complex. Actually I think much like your friend. The US is way cooler. I think that the Jews need to keep a low profile since we are being blamed for everything left and right. You proved repeatedly that Israel has no right to defend itself I mean we should let terrorists bring in arms, rockets, bombs, terrorists and contraban through those tunnels your friend was defending. We have no right reconquering the West Bank or Gaza after the PLO reneged on their OSLO commitments to refrain from terrorist activities, rein-in militias and subsequent commitments to stop incitement. When bombs go off in Tel-Aviv you say remove all your settlements, back-up into the freedm line and then you will have peace. remember the new year's resolution. We were there - Prior to '67 Israel was still consistently badgered (to put lightly) by Arabs. Today Palestinians still proclaim that Israel must be destroyed. So I guess that the only thing that can satisfy your extremist Leftist Ideals is the disappearance of the Jews from Israel - THAT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN - No extremism here JUST REALITY TALKING.

P.S. You are still avoiding the issues I specified previously.
Oh and by the way I liked that "My best friend is Jewish . . ." line.



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 03:55 PM
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Yeah well I don't know what issues you are talking about that I haven't responded to...please be more specific...

Secondly, I didn't prove Israel can't defend herself. I said She killed my classmate witha bulldozer. They ran over her with a bulldozer. After a standoff of staring eachother down, they just ran over a young girl. That is terror. That is telling my comrades not to come to Israel if we want to stop them from tearing down the homes of Palestinian doctors because if they do the IDF will kill them. That's terror.

I was only talking about this to you at first. But the original of this post is that ISRAEL is a state sponsor of terror. If you disagree that's fine but there is so much proof out there that they are.



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 04:23 PM
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Originally posted by General Zapata
Now, we turn to Israel. Unlike the US (except for 9/11, which was pissweak compared to the hell that the US has wrought), Israel has been feeling the retaliation of its policies on its own soil. Thankfully, the world is starting to sit up and take notice. The sympathy card is getting more and more difficult to play. If we can't fully remove the blight on the world knows as Israel, we can at least make it pay for its transgressions. And yet, we have no reason as to what Israel gains from its continuing policies of violence and apatheid against the palestinian people. Perhaps the huge US 'aid' is enough. perhaps not.


I think I sensed a bit of racism there:

If we can't fully remove the blight on the world knows as Israel

and then you talk about apartheid? That seems to be contradictory don't you think?
apartheid: n. racial segregation and discrimination (in South Africa).

Fisrt off, Jews and Arabs are Semitic therefore race has nothing to do with it. The difference is religion. How many Arab countries are there? How many Muslim countries are there? How many Christian countries are there? How many Jewish countries? Yet Israel is the problem?
Under Ottoman rule- The last Caliphate - Jews were second class citizens just as all non-muslims - without the rights of muslim citizens. THAT IS APARTHEID.
In modern times, Palestinian are Palestinian Citizens under Palestinian rule. Something like 99% of the Palestinians today are under Palestinian rule. They are NOT ISRAELI citizens Just like Lebanese are not Syrian citizens.
Palestinians have no land ownership rights, voting rights and sometimes education rights in Syria, Jordan, Lebanon or Egypt. Therefore, true, Apartheid exists but it is in Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Egypt where Palestinian residents in these countries do not have the rights of the local population and yet Arabs and their Oil loving Cronies (Europeans for the most part) say that Israel is an Apartheid state.

Ironic isn't it.



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 04:30 PM
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Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi

I think I sensed a bit of racism there:

If we can't fully remove the blight on the world knows as Israel


Fisrt off, Jews and Arabs are Semitic therefore race has nothing to do with it.

Palestinians have no land ownership rights, voting rights and sometimes education rights in Syria, Jordan, Lebanon or Egypt. Therefore, true, Apartheid exists but it is in Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Egypt where Palestinian residents in these countries do not have the rights of the local population and yet Arabs and their Oil loving Cronies (Europeans for the most part) say that Israel is an Apartheid state.

Ironic isn't it.


Minority rights are a different story.

You contradict yourself by sensing racism that doesn't exist.

Lastly, Apartheid exists because Jews are building a wall between themselves and Palestinians, the previous (and current by many means) legal ownder of the land.



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 04:34 PM
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Originally posted by 00PS
Yeah well I don't know what issues you are talking about that I haven't responded to...please be more specific...

Secondly, I didn't prove Israel can't defend herself. I said She killed my classmate witha bulldozer. They ran over her with a bulldozer. After a standoff of staring eachother down, they just ran over a young girl. That is terror. That is telling my comrades not to come to Israel if we want to stop them from tearing down the homes of Palestinian doctors because if they do the IDF will kill them. That's terror.

I was only talking about this to you at first. But the original of this post is that ISRAEL is a state sponsor of terror. If you disagree that's fine but there is so much proof out there that they are.



OK Even assuming what you say is true and not doctored in any way or transformed to suite the mindset of extreme individuals - then, according to your definition the only people not guilty of terrorism are probably the Tahiti and Micronasia - I think I herd of a story that a policeman in one of these Isalnds arrested a local and forgot him in the holding cell for a month.
So I guess to define terrorism we need to be a bit more specific and not generalize the definition to include just about every country on this god forsaken rock we call Earth.



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 04:38 PM
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OK Even assuming what you say is true and not doctored in any way or transformed to suite the mindset of extreme individuals - then, according to your definition the only people not guilty of terrorism are probably the Tahiti and Micronasia - I think I herd of a story that a policeman in one of these Isalnds arrested a local and forgot him in the holding cell for a month.
So I guess to define terrorism we need to be a bit more specific and not generalize the definition to include just about every country on this god forsaken rock we call Earth.


The point is not 'who isn't guilty of being a State Sponsor of Terrorism. The pointis that The USA and ISRAEL are not accused publicly or scrutinized by their allies. That they can get away with it and it not even be in our own history books is a farce in the name of freedom and liberty.

Sure many countries have terror within their borders. But the USA and ISRAEL are different in that they Sponsor it across borders and they are supposed to be Developed Countries (Israel is still developing in many ways though)

Once again I suggest you read the whole post so we don't have repititious arguements that kill discussion. We are not talking about 'terrorism' we are talking about State Sponsorship of Terror. Don't know the difference? REview the last 2 pages before this one.



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 05:05 PM
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Originally posted by 00PS

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi

I think I sensed a bit of racism there:

If we can't fully remove the blight on the world knows as Israel


Fisrt off, Jews and Arabs are Semitic therefore race has nothing to do with it.

Palestinians have no land ownership rights, voting rights and sometimes education rights in Syria, Jordan, Lebanon or Egypt. Therefore, true, Apartheid exists but it is in Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Egypt where Palestinian residents in these countries do not have the rights of the local population and yet Arabs and their Oil loving Cronies (Europeans for the most part) say that Israel is an Apartheid state.

Ironic isn't it.


Minority rights are a different story.

this has nothing to do with minority rights. The Arab world created the Palestinian problem to use as leverage against Israel and are continuing to plague the Palestinians with second hand citizen rights and Israel with so called refugee probelm that they themselves created.
Where do you see in the US that a US born British Citizen (who is also a US citizen since he is born there) does not have equal rights? When Jews ecaped Nazi Germany (To use a extreme example since you like these) to other European countries or the US were the offspring of these refugees not absorbed into that country as equal citizens? Of course they were.

The Palestinians do not have that right since they are a tool. A tool against Israel 60 years after its creation. Only Hate can cause that and not the hate of stolen land. The Syrians, Lebanese, Egyptians, Jordanians or Iraqis never cared for them so much - That hate is the hate of the JEWS. And you are their tool.


You contradict yourself by sensing racism that doesn't exist.

OK saying that Israel is a disease of the world is not racism - Reality check - HELLO??????



Lastly, Apartheid exists because Jews are building a wall between themselves and Palestinians, the previous (and current by many means) legal ownder of the land.


Firstly, what land are you talking about (west Bank or Israel proper)?
Secondly, Again Israel is not allowed to defend itself. The last straw. Give them the land. No agreement - DOn't have Palestinian police (amounting to in excess of 35,000 men - the highest in the world in terms of police to civilian ratio) stop the terrorists from destroying the peace process (I wonder why they are strategically not willing to do this), build a fence to stop the daily attack on Israeli Civilians (The fence already built have decreased the amount of terrorist attrocities in Israel greatly - that is why the Qassem rocket was developed in Palestine - to overshoot the fence).

The fence is just saying 'WE WANT TO LIVE'.

For the most part the fence was built on the '67 border lines. Apartheid has nothing to do with building a border between 2 warring populations. It is a separation of two different countries one Israeli and one Palestinian. Is that so hard to understand.

What other country ethnicity or religion in the world needs to constantly defend its existance - THIS IS ridiculous.



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 05:10 PM
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Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
I think I sensed a bit of racism there:

and then you talk about apartheid? That seems to be contradictory don't you think?
apartheid: n. racial segregation and discrimination (in South Africa).

Fisrt off, Jews and Arabs are Semitic therefore race has nothing to do with it. The difference is religion. How many Arab countries are there? How many Muslim countries are there? How many Christian countries are there? How many Jewish countries? Yet Israel is the problem?


why would I be a racist? I didnt even use the word jew OR semitic in my post. by the way, i am an arab, and have been the victim of racism, so I'm the last person likely to be a racist. I have no problem with the israeli people. For the most part, the moderate (ie non-radical zionists) are good, hardworking people. However, that does not stop Israel from being an illegitimate state, born of violence and theft against the palestinians.



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