The Anti-Christian conspiracy

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
you cannot achieve this through reliance on anyone but yourself, though those you meet on the way there can help. a truth that one must acquire through thought, not faith. there is no trust in something to save you, for only you can save yourself.

need anything clarified saint?

Perfect. That's the exact answer I was looking for. Jesus says the opposite. You have to believe/trust in him, and there's nothing you can earn your way into heaven. "He who believes(trusts) has everlasting life." - John 6:47 It's clear to me Jesus didn't template Bhuddism as previously claimed, and is quite a bit innovative for the times.


[edit on 21-12-2005 by saint4God]

why do you keep telling me these guys speak for jesus? how do you know john didn't make the whole damn thing up? how do you know that jesus was right and buddha was wrong?

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by Fromabove
If man created god, who created man?

I know this wasn't asked of me, but I'm going to answer anyway.

1. Your concept of god
2. Aliens created men, and the aliens have a complete record of their own evolution beginning with base compounds.
3. Men from the future invent time machines and return to create the seeds of their own existence.
4. All life on earth spontaneously assembled simultaneously by pure chance, including the fossil record
5. There is in fact a god of sort, but the universe is an emination from him that he is not even aware of
6. Our entire universe is a dream for some unimaginably intelligent (but finite) being (shhh! don't wake him up!)
7. Nothing actually exists. Therefor there is nothing to prevent everything from existing, including men.
8. You live in a matrix of some kind and none of this is real. The matrix is eternal (another variant of the nonpersonal creator concept)

I make no claim that this list is exhaustive.

you're my hero spam, and you could make a book out of the exhaustive version of the list.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
why do you keep telling me these guys speak for jesus?

I sought God. When I found Him, He directed me back to the Book. I check with Him to make sure I'm understanding and ask Him for clarification on the things I'm confused about. Christianity is a personal relationship with God. More personal than you and I talking here.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
how do you know john didn't make the whole damn thing up?

There are many ways to cross-reference the material. One way is the one I'd mentioned above. The other is to test. Another is to trust & use, to see if it comes out true. There are others. I found the first most effective and to be the best though.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
how do you know that jesus was right and buddha was wrong?

For me, I did something very stupid in searching for answers. I invited anything that existed beyond the human realm to reveal itself to me. Yeah, I got an answer, but not from who I expected. Rather than repeating my painful and lethal mistake, try this...

Ask God if Jesus is right. Let Him answer, not on your terms. I wouldn't recommend saying, "God, if Jesus is right, send a lightning bolt to strike this chair." or "God, if Jesus is right, then answer me vocally right now." The problem with that is you're setting conditions, making youself "god" of the situation. That's not very open-minded and open-hearted. Rather, try something like, "God, please let me know by your way if Jesus is your son or not". If you sincerely care, you'll get your answer. Maybe not when or how you expected, but delivered in a way that's most effective for you.

[edit on 22-12-2005 by saint4God]

Ask God if Jesus is right. Let Him answer, not on your terms. I wouldn't recommend saying, "God, if Jesus is right, send a lightning bolt to strike this chair." or "God, if Jesus is right, then answer me vocally right now." The problem with that is you're setting conditions, making youself "god" of the situation. That's not very open-minded and open-hearted. Rather, try something like, "God, please let me know by your way if Jesus is your son or not". If you sincerely care, you'll get your answer. Maybe not when or how you expected, but delivered in a way that's most effective for you.

Correct. If one want to ask GOD for a sign, help, or anything one must ask and not demand. GOD will answer in his own way and in a way each individual can personally understand. What he reveals to each he also considers the individuals ability to grasp. That is why he answers on terms between him and the individual. Those are terms that he works with.

Evolution was once just a speculative thoery. But man in his desire to be "free" of God embraced it as truth. It has now become the "end all" for everyone who cannot believe and trust in God. Yet evolution has never been proven true, and even if it were it will never explain why, where, and what from, the whole universe began. God, the Creator, has been reduced to nothing more than a "theory" that is why I used it in the way. No longer can most people admit to the truth of God, they will not even consider it nor tolerate it. If I say those who believe in the "no God" theory are intolerant I get accused of being the intolerant one. But in the end I stand by my belief. Incidently, since those who trust in the "no God" evolution "theory" cannot actually "prove" it, they too must rely on "faith" for their belief. Then it becomes the pinnacle of their worship, and then it becomes like a god to them who's center is man himself as a god.

The universe exists, therefore there is a Creator God.

Fromabove

Well, this is not the correct thread in which to discuss the Theory of Evolution but, without getting into all of that...the reason some may see you as intolerant is that you've apparently drawn some line-in-the-sand and are working from a false dichotomy that says, for you, that a person, like me, cannot believe in G-d and accept the solid science of evolution.

By my very existence, I have proven that argument false. So, what else ya' got?

Well said madmanacrosswater.

Originally posted by Al Davison
Well, this is not the correct thread in which to discuss the Theory of Evolution but, without getting into all of that...the reason some may see you as intolerant is that you've apparently drawn some line-in-the-sand and are working from a false dichotomy that says, for you, that a person, like me, cannot believe in G-d and accept the solid science of evolution.

I think you're right about drawing lines in the sand Al, there are many many scientists who are Christian and do believe in evolution, as well as many scientists who are Christian and do not believe in evolution. Clearly though it is not "solid science" else the question would never be raised. I think "believe" or "have faith in" would be the correct terms to use when discussion the hypothesis of evolution. Why hypothesis? Because it cannot be tested, does not produce data, and isn't a working model that we can use in daily science. Adaptation is another story. Here's a thread we all can jump to in order to discuss: Evolution, where is the evidence? I see none... . Take special note!

The title of the thread says nothing about God or Christianity, but watch what it turns into.

This does have a tie-in to our topic. It's important to not only see the Anti-Christian Conspiracies, but also the ones that are not conspiracies. I don't think evolution at the base understanding is Anti-Christian. I do see it used frequently as a tool against Christianity (see link and special note above). So, when used in an Anti-Christian Conspiracy, it then becomes a part of it, though that wasn't it's original design or understanding.


[edit on 22-12-2005 by saint4God]

Thanks, Saint!

Well, if I were to begin disputing your claim that clearly evolution is not a solid science because there are those that question it then, we would truly be hi-jacking this thread and I won't (though I'm constantly assured that thread hi-jacking is common enough to be almost acceptable, I still feel rude when I participate in it).

My point was really aimed at the "why am I the one considered intolerant?" question and I can tell that you picked up on that one just fine.

If we cast off all divisions based on race (I agree, that would be nice), religion (meaning everyone recognizes the Truth, or we completely rebel against God), boundaries (one world government), etc. (?) suddenly there wouldn't be any suffering, no starvation, total peace and immortality? I'm not so sure I see the logical jump there...

What I am saying is that man is so concerned with our differences that our species needs to quit worrying about the differences and work together on what we have in common. That, of course, is the energy and the realization that ALL are GOD's children.

Man has the power. GOD gave it to us. As long as man ignores GOD and listens to those that wish to divide based on difference this world will continually go downhill.

As a few know I never go from Point A to Point B in a straight line. There are far too many variables in between. I wish it was that simple. If all would listen to GOD when he says today is the day to stop poverty we would all get to work doing such. However, many don't listen to GOD, many tells us what "God's intentions" are, etc. Many say one must listen or "believe" or have "faith" in GOD this way or that way. The only "faith" that is really needed is the "faith" that we are all GOD's children and equal.

Notice I put the word "faith" in quotation. "Faith" is a belief. I KNOW there is a GOD, and what his intentions were and are. I need no one to tell me that because I listen to GOD.

Originally posted by Fromabove
Evolution was once just a speculative thoery. But man in his desire to be "free" of God embraced it as truth. It has now become the "end all" for everyone who cannot believe and trust in God.

You do realize that most Christians accept evolution don't you? There is no fundamental disconnect between Christianity and evolution. There is only a problem with literal Biblical inerrancy and evolution.

Literal Biblical inerrancy is idolatry.



[edit on 22-12-2005 by spamandham]

Originally posted by Al Davison
Well, if I were to begin disputing your claim that clearly evolution is not a solid science because there are those that question it then, we would truly be hi-jacking this thread...

C'mon over to the other thread! Quite a party going on over there and I'd like everyone to meet mattison. He's one of my real-life heros. I dropped the science and went corporate so I'm living vicariously through him since we think a lot alike scientifically (that doesn't mean same religious faith as some may assume).

Originally posted by Al Davison
My point was really aimed at the "why am I the one considered intolerant?" question and I can tell that you picked up on that one just fine.

Oh good! Glad to help.

[edit on 22-12-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by spamandham
Literal Biblical inerrancy is idolatry.

Explain please.

Yes Spamandham, a lot of Christians believe in evolution, but they aren't denying there is a God. A lot of peopel don't believe in a literal six day creation, I happen to be one of them. As a matter of fact, I personally believe that there was a prior creation on the Earth before Genesis 1:1 in which the "serpent" creatures lived but who were destroyed because they rejected the sovereignty of God. And I guess I can accept "adaptation" as a valid splitoff from evolution as is taught today with no God. However, God is still the Creator.

Now, on intolerance, I'm not really convinced that anyone here is there yet. After all, there is a discussion going on here. I don't believe in what some say here, but I will listen and ponder what they say and consider it though I may not be convinced.

Intolerant people are the ACLU types who just can't stand the word God, and scientists who have used evolution as the end all to rid the masses of God and set them free. While they say they are tolerant, they will forbid the theory of intelligent design. Therefore I think intolerance is a forceful refusal to consider an opposing arguement.

Fromabove

Intolerant people are the ACLU types who just can't stand the word God, and scientists who have used evolution as the end all to rid the masses of God and set them free. While they say they are tolerant, they will forbid the theory of intelligent design. Therefore I think intolerance is a forceful refusal to consider an opposing arguement.

oops! I forgot to mention that I'm also a member of the ACLU. Your statements about that organization bounce back and forth along the spectrum from gross exaggerations to outright lies. This is your definition of tolerance?

Another gross exaggeration you make is in the statements about "they will forbid the theory of intelligent design" - that is not the case and I believe you know it. The points that I believe you mean to make are regarding whether public schools can spend public money to teach a Judeo-Christian faith-based belief in our science classes. If you want to gripe about that, you are free to do so but your arguments will carry more weight if you sound less like Rush Limbaugh.

Your point of view is always welcome but it helps a lot if you are truthful when you express yourself. There are not only Biblical restrictions on knowingly making false statements, there are also conditions of using ATS that prohibit that as well.




[edit on 22-12-2005 by Al Davison]

I have a thread running on some realted material here...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Pretty disgusting.

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater

Unless we can control the weather, keep the earths crust from leaking the contents underneath, provide food and shelter without any death or destruction, prevent all physical harm from happening, etc. man cannot be granted enough peace and security to not hurt, want, fear and war.

Under God's rule this will all happen and we will enjoy the peace needed to express perfect love to all. In the meantime we can only do our best, which is far from good enough yet still God offers us total forgiveness for all our failings under the despot, satan.

Yes Suzy, but GOD has given man the power to do all the above. It is up to man to decide his fate. We could do all that you listed above plus much more when man learns that there are truly no divisions based on race, religion, boundaries, etc.

GOD empowered man and gave man all the tools necessary to take care of any problem. However, man must wake up to the fact that we are one. If one thinks Christ is going to step in and fix the mess why should he? We have the means, but too many are concerned about making someone out different for us to work together.

Tsunami anyone, Katrina, how's those volcano capping going?

Haven't all those recent killer earthquakes been a barrel of laughs leaving the survivers ohh so secure?

Can you eat a carrot without killing it?

Build a house without first destroying the foundation it's built on or resourse providing the materials?

Have we ever 'controled' a pest, bug or virus without causing more, harder to control 'problems'?

What about solar flares and meteors. Have we got a solution that doesn't involve minning or petro-chemicals?

Ever worked with the animals that provide our food or the land and climate that does? They can really push your patients and even kill you.

Grow everything indoors and that involves a hell of alot of destruction first and chemicals to build and maintain the artificial enviroment.

Have you found a way to ensure no one gets angry when they stub their toe and upset those around them?

What about falling in love with one who doesn't want you, and jealousy? Got those dangerous emotions under control?

Now lets fix all these "real world", "real life" problems, in an instant flash, so no one feels threatened by 'advances' of their neighbours and go to war against them.

I could go I on, but I think you get the point. I strongly disagree with your statement of 'hope' unless you are allowing for what will happen when The Creator Of all there is, returns to reset the balance, with His outpouring of The Holy Spirit.


P.S. I do however agree, in the mean time, we have to take all those handycaps, to always being sweetness and light, into account when we feel the urge to blow our stack with our fellow toilers under satan's rule, and forgive each other when we inevitably do.

[edit on 23-12-2005 by suzy ryan]

spamandham said:
Literal Biblical inerrancy is idolatry.

I couldn't have phrased this better. Basically, if you believe that every word of the bible is ineffably directed from god's uvula, then you are idolizing the codex itself. You are raising the text to Supreme status.

As for the Anti-Christian conspiracy, of course it exists. Christianity is modernized (palatable) Judiasm. If you worship the lineage/messianibility of Jesus, then you are a follower of the Isaac line from Abraham. Muslims got the semi-credible line of Ishmael. Both want the other eliminated.

But what's weird to me, is the subject of "Zionism", because I was raised as a JW and they see themselves as 1: Christian, and 2: Zionists (their Watchtower mag used to be called "Zion's Watchtower"). As keeping with Hebrew ideaology, Jesus is a side-player in comparison to his father-God, YHWH (Greek-ized to Jehovah). I'm not entirely clear on what Zionism is, exactly.

The JW's believe that soon, their doorknocking ministry will be forcibly halted and they will be persecuted. The JW's expect to be tortured/imprisoned/killed or whatever, similar to the Axis camps of WWII. As a young J-Dub, I was constantly imbedded with imagery and teachings that one day, "Christendom" (as they call the rest of Christianity) would be gobbled up by the corporations/governments and then the J-Dubs would be about to get erased also when "Christ" steps in to begin Armageddon. Armageddon, to J-Dubs, unlike most interpretations, means the death of every non-jehovah-witness on Earth since everyone on Earth at that point will be Satan's tools. Sorry everyone!

Anyway, for what it's worth, Islam/Christianity/Judaism are like some dancer on a stage that's danced too damn long. I'm waiting for the giant hook to come from off stage and yank them off. What really was Abraham's great accomplishment? I mean God just picks him out of the blue and as an act of faith he makes him take his son (Ishmael or Isaac, depending on your belief-tree) and put a knife to his throat? ...Nah, for me, denying ignorance begins with the story of Abe.

I guess, like Prometheus, Jesus has to exist in our core thought system. We so want to believe that a god cared about us enough to endure torture. People will die to defend that tortured-god idea because it is based on the idea that there is at least one god who cares about mankind. I can see why lonely humans would die at the chopping block for the thought, "God loves me and nobody will convince me he doesn't!"

I can see also why some other humans would want to kill that faithful human.

Two armies encamped, whose soldiers fight during the day, but who are both in the dream world at night. In such a situation, the dream world is preferable to all of the men, but none of them can be convinced that the horror of their daytime, waking existence is unreal. In regards to God's existence, I think the dream world tells us that we humans are much more than just bags of bones and stew. But the nature of incarnation is that the pain-relief flux keeps us really, really keyed into our waking lives.

When you are dreaming, you do not wonder about the waking world. You do not consider it. Even while your meat is lying dormant, vulnerable, almost dead. You flit and fly in your dreams, blissfully unconcerned with your waking self.

But if when you awaken, you can remember any part of the dream world, you are haunted by it all day. Truly, some dream sensations endure for a lifetime and are often more vivid than any of our waking memories.

So if one world dominates the other, which one is the more important? Which one holds the key to mankind's cohesion and harmony?

There's got to be hundreds of better ways to be spiritual or to worship God. Perhaps we can turn inward and find God there FIRST, then come out of our caves and greet each other as God-realized?

God's inside your head, str8 up.



[edit on 23-12-2005 by smallpeeps]

Al Davidson, if you study the concept of intelligent design, it does not attribute that the "creator" is the Christian God. The ACLU has a record of fighting to rid this country of anything Christian. You're a member of the ACLU, you should know the program. My own opinions of this are based upon the thousands of news reports yearly. Yesterday, the ACLU got "thumped" by a judge who cited them as "unreasonable" over the issue of a "Ten Commandments" display. You really need to read the opinion of the court. However, if you can point me to any scientist, website, etc. that claims that intelligent design is the Christian God creationist theory, I will listen. If you are a lawyer this should not take you very much time.

Fromabove

Don't forget to read the part where I say that my "opinions" are based upon news reporting. As a lawyer you should know that I did not say specifically that the ACLU is intolerant, as I said ACLU types. The ACLU takes the cases in support of others. But they get to choose which ones they will defend. If this is false, I will need your insider wisdom to set me straight. Thanks.

Fromabove

Originally posted by Fromabove
... The ACLU has a record of fighting to rid this country of anything Christian. You're a member of the ACLU, you should know the program.
Fromabove

Keep spouting this nonsense and you will be reported. The ACLU battles to which you are attempting to refer have to do ONLY with attempts by Christian groups to unlawfully act in such as a way as to demonstrate a government sanctioned/sponsored preference for a Judeo-Christian belief system. There has never been any ACLU action that would suppress any private individual's free and lawful expression of their religious beliefs

BTW - if anybody ever legitimately attempts to suppress your lawful expression of your religious beliefs, the ACLU will be your best friends.