The Anti-Christian conspiracy

Originally posted by saint4God
Nice song and dance madness, I'd hoped you were a person of better integrity than that. Rerereread your own statement and what I quoted.

well... let's see....

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
but blasphemy is a subjective crime, even within a religion. prostestants are blasphemers according to catholics and the orthodox, catholics are blasphemers according to the protestants and the orthodox, etc. muslims consider all of the above blasphemers and all of the above would consider muslims blasphemers.

emphasis added. i put in the last part to talk about how blasphemy isn't only subjective within a single religion... i only harped on the conflict within christianity to emphasize how not even 1 religion can get the same definition of a single sin.

It's nice to admit you're wrong once in a while when you're wrong, it does the mind and spirit good. Helps us to learn things instead of being locked in our own narrow-minded mental cage. Sorry I brought it up. Truly.

and it's nice to admit that you're wrong here. my points break down as such

1: christianity can't decide on blasphemy
subpoint A: there are other religions... so it's even more subjective.

it's quite clear what i meant.

For those who are not familiar with what madness and I know and are talking about, it is here:

"And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven." - Matthew 12:31 (Jesus speaking)

Before the haters go "but but but..." and carry on madness' subjectivity dance, there's more than that verse and the whole New Testament explains in even greater detail.

yet it can't really DEFINE blasphemy.... can it?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
yet it can't really DEFINE blasphemy.... can it?

Of course it can and you already know that too from your rererereadings.

Originally posted by saint4God
Of course it can and you already know that too from your rererereadings.

oh really? for the rest of the community, cite the sources. show me where it properly defines blasphemy in the NT

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
oh really? for the rest of the community, cite the sources. show me where it properly defines blasphemy in the NT

I'll give you both:

Exodus 20:7
Leviticus 19:12
Leviticus 22:32
Leviticus 24:10-16
Deuteronomy 5:11
Leviticus 24:10-16
Numbers 21:5-6
2 Samuel 12:14
2 Samuel 16:5
2 Kings 18:22
Isaiah 36:15-20
Isaiah 37:10-33
Job 2:9
Matthew 26:74
Matthew 27:40-44
Acts 26:11
1 Timothy 1:13
1 Timothy 1:20
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
Revelation 2:9

These, in most cases, are examples of, thereby giving the definition of what it means to blaspheme (i.e. speak falsely about God, from what I've gathered) in both the old and new testaments. In others, it's cases of blasphemy against others, either false or true.


[edit on 8/23/07/23 by junglejake]

Originally posted by junglejake

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
oh really? for the rest of the community, cite the sources. show me where it properly defines blasphemy in the NT

I'll give you both:

Exodus 20:7
Leviticus 19:12
Leviticus 22:32
Leviticus 24:10-16
Deuteronomy 5:11

so taking the name of god in vain is the definition of blasphemy?
would this include any and all criticism of said deity?

Numbers 21:5-6

oh wait, it does... nevermind....
you know, why did god have to kill all those innocent firstborn children?
hmm, i don't see any fiery serpents coming after me, i guess you should obey leviticus and stone me to death..

2 Samuel 12:14

this one really just MENTIONS blasphemy

2 Samuel 16:5

as does this one...

2 Kings 18:22

ok, let's add worship of "false gods" (such an arrogant phrase coming from theists) to the list... don't know why you didn't put it in initially with the 10 big ones

Isaiah 36:15-20
Isaiah 37:10-33

these two don't really deal with blaspheming so much as they deal with political conflict and how extremist religion views it...

Job 2:9

last of the OT...
cursing god = bad?
ok, well... let's look at the god of the passages you've given me so far...

he is "jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." (taken from dawkins, he puts it quite well, doesn't he?)
i can back every point in that statement... so why shouldn't i curse the name of someone who ordered multiple genocides?

Matthew 26:74

not blasphemy... lying, but not blasphemy...

Matthew 27:40-44

now that would be an example of what you consider blasphemy... but really they are kind of just asking questions in a taunting manner...
looks like you skipped something there...
Mark 3:22-30
Matthew 12:22-32
those pertain to the unforgivable sin of blasphemy against the holy spirit... could you define what blasphemy against said spirit would be?

Acts 26:11
1 Timothy 1:13
1 Timothy 1:20
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
Revelation 2:9

ok, more of the essential same thing...

These, in most cases, are examples of, thereby giving the definition of what it means to blaspheme (i.e. speak falsely about God, from what I've gathered) in both the old and new testaments. In others, it's cases of blasphemy against others, either false or true.

honestly, that area i bolded was what i was looking for...
now, the problem is that god is an entirely subjective matter, even the holy book is a matter of massive interpretation and many extrapolate a wide variety of varying ideas from it... so blasphemy is subjective as what you believe to be speaking falsely about god is different from what another person would consider to be speaking falsely about god...

Hehe, may as well let it go JJ (though I cab appreciate the references), he already started back-peddling a few posts ago. He's going to be asking for the definition of "the" next and explaining why "the" is a subjective term open to the interpretation of the individual.

Main Entry: rel·a·tiv·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈre-lə-ti-ˌvi-zəm\
Function: noun
Date: 1865
1 a: a theory that knowledge is relative to the limited nature of the mind and the conditions of knowing b: a view that ethical truths depend on the individuals and groups holding them

mw1.merriam-webster.com...

And yes, relativism is an integral part of The Anti-Christian Conspiracy.

[edit on 24-8-2007 by saint4God]

relativism is something that the world needs to a degree. it's quite obvious that the world isn't black and white, it's not even shades of grey, the world is wonderfully colorful in terms of morality.

now, anyway. as i said, god is a subjective matter. what one person says is blasphemy is considered to be the full truth to another. that's my point here, you're dealing with a being that cannot be defined objectively, how the hell could one blaspheme against such a being?

So the only absolute truth is that there is no absolute truth?

Well, that's an interesting...truth...

[edit on 8/24/07/24 by junglejake]

Originally posted by junglejake
So the only absolute truth is that there is no absolute truth?

Well, that's an interesting...truth...

no, there is no absolute truth on subjective matters. there is no best colour, no best flavour, no coolest car, no prettiest girl, etc. there is no true nature to an abstract being who, by its very definition, cannot be truely comprehended by humanity and is only understood through subjective interpretation of text and personal experience.

there is absolute truth on certain matter, but on many there just isn't.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Your statement is an interesting and valid one. However, you're coming into this with the assumption that God is not real.


I have an idea of who you are. I've gotten that through your writing. Saint has one as well. Our ideas do not match, I'm sure. MM has one based on your writing, too, and it does not completely match, either. I'm sure all three of us have made suppositions about you that are inaccurate. Yet behind all that writing, behind all the thought going into your posts, is the true Madnessinmysoul. The true you, who you really are does not change with our opinion of who you are. You are still you, no matter what I think you are, no matter what Saint thinks you are. You are you. No one's knowledge of you can change that, and no one's misjudgements of you can change it, either. You are you.

Originally posted by junglejake
reply to post by madnessinmysoul

 

Your statement is an interesting and valid one. However, you're coming into this with the assumption that God is not real.

ah, but you are incorrect. i have come into the discussion without an assumption, but with a deduction based on the available evidence.

I have an idea of who you are. I've gotten that through your writing. Saint has one as well. Our ideas do not match, I'm sure. MM has one based on your writing, too, and it does not completely match, either. I'm sure all three of us have made suppositions about you that are inaccurate. Yet behind all that writing, behind all the thought going into your posts, is the true Madnessinmysoul. The true you, who you really are does not change with our opinion of who you are. You are still you, no matter what I think you are, no matter what Saint thinks you are. You are you. No one's knowledge of you can change that, and no one's misjudgements of you can change it, either. You are you.

if the point you're trying to make on this is what i think it is... the problem with your arguement is that you're saying any god = your god... you just might have the wrong view

am i wrong or is this your arguement?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
ah, but you are incorrect. i have come into the discussion without an assumption, but with a deduction based on the available evidence.

Could you reread that statement?

if the point you're trying to make on this is what i think it is... the problem with your arguement is that you're saying any god = your god... you just might have the wrong view

am i wrong or is this your arguement?

Sort of. I know I personally have understandings of who God is that are inaccurate. I know this because I've had understandings in the past that have been blown away as I've come to know Him more, and it would be idiotic arrogance to deduce I have it all down now. So the "problem" you pointed out is one I'm well aware of, and one I am constantly trying to rectify. However, with the knowledge that the finite cannot fully comprehend the infinite, I don't expect I'll ever succeed.

My point was not that I've got it all down. My point was that God is God, no matter what I try to make Him, no matter how I understand Him. The assumption that He is subjective and is whatever anyone says He is assumes He is not, because anything that is is not subject at its core to the understanding of what it is.

To use a physics example, quarks always existed. Even though humanity was under the impression atoms were the fundamental building blocks of the universe, quarks were still there. Though we did not understand them, nor even think they existed, they did. When we deduced electrons, neutrons and protons were the fundamental building blocks of the universe, we were still wrong. We saw evidence pointing to that, but even so, quarks still existed, and we didn't even know how to look for them, much less what questions to be asking to discover them at the time. Now the question emerges if quarks are not the smallest, but if they're made of strings. If they, in reality, are not, but we think they are and the evidence we use to deduce they are, our assumption is still wrong.

Is the point I was trying to make clearer now, or did I just muddy up the water a bit more?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
relativism is something that the world needs to a degree.

ROTFL! I'm laughing so hard I can't keep the tears from my eyes. You made a relativist statement about relativism. This is epic.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
now, anyway. as i said, god is a subjective matter.

Oh please stop, I'm going to bust a gut here! Woooo, this room is getting too luke-warm for me...relatively speaking of course.

[edit on 30-8-2007 by saint4God]

Originally posted by junglejake

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
ah, but you are incorrect. i have come into the discussion without an assumption, but with a deduction based on the available evidence.

Could you reread that statement?

depends on how you define "assumption"
but...let's not get into semantics

Sort of. I know I personally have understandings of who God is that are inaccurate. I know this because I've had understandings in the past that have been blown away as I've come to know Him more, and it would be idiotic arrogance to deduce I have it all down now. So the "problem" you pointed out is one I'm well aware of, and one I am constantly trying to rectify. However, with the knowledge that the finite cannot fully comprehend the infinite, I don't expect I'll ever succeed.

ah, but you make another assumption about god at the end there...

My point was not that I've got it all down. My point was that God is God, no matter what I try to make Him, no matter how I understand Him. The assumption that He is subjective and is whatever anyone says He is assumes He is not, because anything that is is not subject at its core to the understanding of what it is.

maybe you should try non-gendered pronouns too...

Is the point I was trying to make clearer now, or did I just muddy up the water a bit more?

yes, the quark example is good.. it's more clear now
but you're still making the fundamental assumption that god is there. i'm not even saying god isn't there... i'm saying i don't see god there... maybe that makes my position a bit more clear.

Make no mistake, I don't believe my understanding is wrong. If I did, I would change it. In addition to that, I believe the God described in scripture is who God is. I have had that confirmed in so many ways, through experience, through study, through attempts at disproving it, and through a changed heart that otherwise couldn't have been melted. The pronoun is that by which I understand He wishes to be referred to by, so to do otherwise would be forcing me to lie to myself.

So, yes, in coming to this conversation I bring my assumptions as to who God is. You come in with yours. Both of us can't be right, though we could both be wrong. My point is that God, if He exists, is as subjective as you, if you exist, are.

Originally posted by jake1997
Why are so many people soo anti christian?

This is what I see. I see threads about many different subjects. Hundreds of subjects. In politics things get heated. On sports teams things get heated.
But when it comes to christianity....

I see hatred, dripping wet with venom. Why? This is not a 'hate christ' forum. Christianity is not the largest religion, nor does it have the worst human rights record in the media...it has nothing that should put it at the top of your hate list.

1.) Why do so many here feel the need to continually make topics bashing the beliefs of christians....when the topic is clearly not conspiracy related??

2.) Why do people feel the need to bust in on a topic and hijack/change it by attacking a person or their beliefs, posting the christian POV on that topic?
(look at seapeoples post history for an example)

3.) Doesnt the sheer weight of the trend in this forum show you that there is clearly some larger movement , possibly lead by a conspiracy, ...whos goal is anti-christian?

It should be THAT obvious. How can you miss it?

[edit on 12-4-2005 by Seekerof]

LOL...130 some odd pages later it appears your able to prophesize

Im kidding of course...I dropped in to see that Saint is going strong as well as JJ and Madness has the momentum of a freight train.

My two cents. I accept all of you. Accept each other. Work for a common goal for I will remind the Christians here of a story where a woman who was a devout believer in Christ, was going to leave her husband for he did not believe.

Christ told her to to go back and practice quietly in her ways and to remain with her husband.

I extend my virtual hand to all of you and ask that perhaps we push aside this frivolousness for their is no conspiracy against Christianity.

Christianity has made the bed that its laying in. Seems to me we believers were warned that if we do less then Christian stuff, people will be pointing fingers and saying " see I told you so "

Didnt Christ say, I do not come to bring you piece, but rather a sword?

Saint meet madness. Madness meet JJ. Back and forth and back and forth.
I purposely have resisted continuous posting in this thread as I could see it was going no where.

In an open question to Madness, I am curious as to the manner in which yoiu feel mankind should treat each other. In a world of 600 Million Homeless, 60 million that starve to death each year, and another 6 Million of which are children, there is much misery on the planet. Ideas on solving this? How about working on a common ground in which mankind can work together?

Is it possible to meld a construct where we come to common ground on ways we as believers and non believers can work together for a common good without us shoving our beliefs down non believers throats and without getting baked by non believers.

Im Looking for unity now. Producing a positive spin rather then a continual spin of non agreement.

We all want to tell people how it is....

How about working on how it could be...

Observe yea...the ant

Peace


[edit on 31-8-2007 by HIFIGUY]

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
I dropped in to see that Saint is going strong as well as JJ and Madness has the momentum of a freight train.

HIFI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dude I so missed you! No kidding, two days ago at work I was wondering how you were doing. We've gotta catch up and see what's what with what's been going on. Good to see you and am grateful to hear your voice again .

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
My two cents. I accept all of you. Accept each other. Work for a common goal for I will remind the Christians here of a story where a woman who was a devout believer in Christ, was going to leave her husband for he did not believe.

Christ told her to to go back and practice quietly in her ways and to remain with her husband.

I like where you're at HIFI, and wish to send your head spinning a bit if I may. I believe you're certainly capable of advanced thinking in the subject matter:

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God." - Matthew 5:9

"Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law." - Luke 12:51-53

"Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning." - 1 Timothy 5:20

Quite a puzzle eh? What sense make you of these things above?

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
I extend my virtual hand to all of you and ask that perhaps we push aside this frivolousness for their is no conspiracy against Christianity.

Do you agree or disagree that the Bible is a timeless work?

"Hide me from the conspiracy of the wicked, from that noisy crowd of evildoers." - Psaulm 64:2

"See how your enemies are astir,
how your foes rear their heads.

With cunning they conspire against your people;
they plot against those you cherish." - Psaulm 83:2-4

"There was a plot afoot among the Gentiles and Jews, together with their leaders, to mistreat them and stone them." - Acts 14:5

"and they plotted to arrest Jesus in some sly way and kill him." - Matthew 26:4 keeping in mind... "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first." - John 15:18

"Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes." - Ephesians 6:11

"in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes." - 2 Corinthians 2:11

I've provided practical examples on previous pages of who, where, how, and why.

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
Saint meet madness. Madness meet JJ. Back and forth and back and forth.

Interesting, is it not? If we all sat together and say "sure, whatever", how long would the conversation be? What would there be to think about?

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
I purposely have resisted continuous posting in this thread as I could see it was going no where.

Are you suuuuuure? Just because it seems to go nowhere, doesn't mean it isn't. If we looked at the sun for a whole minute and say "that thing doesn't move!" is it so? It is if a minute is your only unit of time.

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
Is it possible to meld a construct where we come to common ground on ways we as believers and non believers can work together for a common good without us shoving our beliefs down non believers throats and without getting baked by non believers.

I haven't seen any shoving or baking. *shrugs*

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
Im Looking for unity now.

Which will accomplish...what exactly? We have 'unity' in our daily lives when we work together, go to school together, etc. Here we don't have to hide from our feelings about these subjects. Since was have our anonymity, we can openly discuss the deeper issues that are on our hearts and minds. For that I'm grateful because I do not experience this kind of freedom in my daily interactions with people most of the time. The largest gun anyone has here is a nerf bazooka .

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
Producing a positive spin rather then a continual spin of non agreement.

I agree we all should focus on the positive and am glad you feel this way too

[edit on 31-8-2007 by saint4God]

he is "jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." (taken from dawkins, he puts it quite well, doesn't he?)
i can back every point in that statement... so why shouldn't i curse the name of someone who ordered multiple genocides?

I have seen a number of variations on the above quote and have also watched a few of the videos by Richard Dawkins.

One of the problems with Christianity for which even Christians dont seem to comprehend is that Christianity is sectarian. This gives great offense to those who have been heavily indoctrinated into the NonSectarian education and pattern of thinking. This is clear by Richard Dawkins and his videos. It is also clear in the postings of most Athiests.

By Sectarian I mean and define ....sect...seperated from ...coming out of. Narrrow ..following a particular path.

Verses Non Sectarian...joining..mixed multitudes...accomodating ....broadminded...tolerant of anything and everything.

Most of this world and the fingerprint of this world is non sectarian...always has been and always will be.

What is also not known by most ..including Christians is that most of the wars and conflicts ...dischord of this world has been one non sectarian group fighting against another non sectarian group.

THe illusion for which so many non believers try to entrap most Believers is that it is primarily the sectarian groups trying to carry out these wars and conflicts. This is a standard mantra of these debates and conspiracy theorys. You can see it coming after awhile. No new informations here.

Observe closely the quote above of Richard Dawkins. This is pretty typical of the genre. It is also a very pubescent and juvenile type of self promotion being carried out on a very unawares public or audience. This is astonishing in a person of letters. Self promotion is core to this type of Humanism. Humility is not.
Once you know this fingerprint and have it in your heart about humility and modesty, and you are subject to watching this type of video, it becomes obvious and very disturbing with which to bear through the whole speech. Modesty and humility are a virtue. Not self promotion.

What you learn and sense about many non sectarian types is that they perceive sectarian peoples as weak. This is not a concept taught to most sectarian believers by their educators and pastors.

I have tended to find alot of ignorance among my fellow Believers ...about everything and anything ...including Christianity. This tends to leave many very vulnurable to non sectarian debates and techniques.

What you learn about believers is that many are no longer Salty..but sugary...which is why they are easily misled and misdirected.

Hope this helps some of you believers to stay on track and beware.

Sectarianism is an anathma to this world. This is the nature of the problem and fingerprint you see all around you in a non sectarian world. Christianity is sectarian.


Thanks,
Orangetom




[edit on 1-9-2007 by orangetom1999]