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The Yearning to Procreate and the Pain of Homosexuality

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posted on Jun, 10 2019 @ 12:59 AM
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I was thinking to myself, reflecting on my own situation in life - my self-imposed celibacy, my deep desire for a relationship, my sexual frustrations, and the way the human mind - or really, the mammalian brain - is built to pair bond with members of the opposite sex.

The meaning of the threads title has to do with a book I am currently reading which has plenty of sordid details of the authors homosexual sexcapades, and although his personal story and his homosexuality Is tangential to the overall story he's trying to tell, his sexuality is relevant insofar as it leads to his meeting his future life-partner.

Being generally horny, and as said, frustrated with my own loneliness, I am aware and have learned before that hypothalamic "bottom-up" biorhythms can be 'captured' by any sort of imagery that appears before me - whether it be gay porn, the telling of a homosexual sex scene (as in the book I am reading) or frankly, to be brutally honest, beastiality.

I am not comparing homosexuality to beastiality, but I am wanting to point out that when a bottom-up regulatory process like sexual arousal - related to copulation, and ultimately in mammals like us, pain-bonding - gets going, its rhythms can be "captured" by any sort of top-down imagery.

An Age of Abuse



The etiology of homosexuality (and gender dysphoric issues) is complex, but it basically grows out of continuous mismatches in the symmetry dynamics of self-other recognition processes. Since such processes begin in its most abstract form in-utero (as mother talking with her fetus, and the father joining in) and continue on in post-natal life, the immature human brainmind at birth is bootstrapping its consciousness from the way the other orients towards them in their feelings - that is, in their intentionality. Intentionality is fundamentally affective and motivative, and only secondarily, and 'by custom', is intentionality a self-conscious process. This difference needn't exist, yet in the culture we exist and grow through, the feeling body intends one thing, while the conscious mind, unable to acknowledge its true motivations (i.e. intentions) lies to itself in order to maintain a certain unrealistic 'ego-ideal'.

Already, as you can see, this state of affairs pits the conscious mind against the feeling body. The subcortical complex which controls our true feelings - the hypothalamus, amygdala, solitary nucleus, and dorsal motor nucleus, and nucleus ambiguus - can be put in opposition to what the cortex believes, via the regulatory rhythms (themselves entrained to amygdalar dynamics) connected to the hypothalamus and dorsal vagal complex, and literally put its own being out of sync with itself.

In terms of the dynamical structure of our physical being, something comparable - but metaphorical - operates through the meaning structures which flow through the space between our physical structures. In self and other, the ventral (underside) of the brain is being built with reference to the safety cues of the others body language - which again, is a function of the feelings the other feels, and hence, what their motivations and intents are. For instance, a mother with unresolved trauma may look at her newborn infant and feel unmanageable fear - a fear she probably wont understand (because her trauma is unresolved) and hence, the fear will expose an intent, or narrative, which says "I am afraid of you" (the infant). This fear typically derives from her own experiences as an infant, but can also come from other traumatic experiences in life. The point is, in seeing the infant, the experience is not one of joyousness and bliss - as it is supposed to be - but one of anxiety, dissociation, and even nausea. These feelings are functions of the fight or flight response, and in the case of nausea and dissociation, of the freeze response. The facial expressions which co-occur with these feelings communicate these feelings to the infants primitive visual systems, and in taking in such a look, the feeling body (via mirror neurons) will 'resonate', and, if the experience becomes a regular one, will lead to transgenerational transmission of trauma - in this case, the mothers trauma with no specific event associated with the feelings produced. Many people grow up and live lives not knowing why they feel what they do specifically because they have no memory event to correspond to the feelings they feel. These people inherit the ghosts of others.

Self and Other, Male and Female



In this despiritualized age of ours, people do not think reality is inherently meaningful, and yet this experience of reality is nothing but a projection of the meaning-destroying interactions with the people they've grown around, and thus, the deep-brain structures which represent the 'feeling' qualities, or intentional states/motivation of others, merely reproduce them, and in living in a culture which prioritizes linguistic and symbolic meaning over embodied and enactive meaning, we can literally come to live a life that is truncated and splintered, all the while believing ourselves to be "healthy", even when a fuller treatment of your movement through self-states would show contradiction after contradiction. Indeed, the reflective mind is mind which seeks the patterns of logical coherency, so if self-states and the narratives they're organized by our dissonant, dissociation results. Some people can be so brutalized in early life that they develop a full-on dissociative identity disorder where the context induces shift in self-state which leaves the person completely amnesiac about what happened in a previous state. Theoretically speaking, a person could be a murderer and pedophile at night, and a happy-go-lucky school administrator during the day. How does such a dissonance manage to exist? Although narratives are fundamental to regulating the affective body, the self can never achieve happiness when its internal states are so de-correlated and disconnected from one another. In complex systems theory, such decorrelation is synonymous with stress.

Between self and other lies the basis for the sexuality-sensuality systems inclination for seeking a mate. Since attachment begins in early life, and attachment is fundamentally the tensegrity of self-other meaning-making, the sexual feelings we feel are emergent properties that are metaphorically continuous with the expectancy structures created by the self's-experience-of-the-other. If the other is abusive, the metaphorical cognate of the other in sexuality for a male is the female, and vice versa for females. If I am made to experience myself again and again as weak, a weakened male will find himself unable to embody the ego-ideal of being a strong and effective male - and hence, will not likely find the wherewithal, or a safe-enough-context, to experience himself as able to seduce a member of the opposite sex.

The homosexual is hit with a double-whammy: the pain of early life abuse, and the pain of not being able to meet an ego-ideal set by others (not by culture, insomuch as culture is nothing more than a re-representation of natural dynamics underlying procreation). The pain - at root - is the failure of empathy and love, and yet in living in a culture which both denies love, and demonizes homosexuality, the effete self experiences a pain that is difficult to describe - yet it is undoubtedly real, and undoubtedly significant.




posted on Jun, 10 2019 @ 12:59 AM
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Is the pain the pain of being driven to know the other, and ultimately, to physically reproduce so that a new human being made in your biological form - carrying your and your mates particular epigenetic propensities?

When I consider the feelings I feel - and I am fairly secure in the dominance of my heterosexual feelings, and so, I am interested in where this anxiety comes from - I find myself boiling it down to: I want to fall in love, have children, and be happy. To be happy means sharing my physical being with an Other which results in the emergence of a new being.

The claim that a complete equality exists between homosexuality and heterosexuality falls short when one considers the spiritual meaning of copulation, pair-bonding, and watching your biological children extend a part of your own being into the future. The denial or dissociation of this truth is a part of the LGBTQ cultures 'regulation' process of not wanting to experience or recognize anything inferior in the life they live, and yet, although pride is important, and being allowed to raise children is undoubtedly a right they should be given, it is not true to say that one can be totally fulfilled outside the context of experiencing your being physically extended in your own children. We can love other children; we can love children we adopt. I love my nephew with all my heart; yet the love of ones own child, given the significance of what they literally carry within themselves i.e. a continuation of the memories of your own and your mates biological being - surpasses all possible meaning a human being can have.

The gnostic alienation towards life, and towards biology, is therefore an antagonism towards the Other, even as they pronounce love, a person committed to a disembodied, disconnected, 'alien' metaphor for their being-in-life refuses to acknowledge the trauma between self and other which has created this feeling state within them, and which therefore - as a means to maintain a sense of pride - compels them to diminish the significance of thinking, reflecting, and knowing the past and future, in being a pre-requisite for repairing self-other relations, and ultimately, in creating a world where we do not experience ourselves out of place - 'alienated'.

As Gloria Steinem trenchantly noted, the result of fixing self-other relations in human societies will be the gradual disappearance of homosexuality.

This certainly conflicts with the myths this society of ours tells itself, yet the processual nature of reality and all the relevant sciences of today - physics, biology (epigenetics) developmental psychology, all support this contention.
edit on 10-6-2019 by Astrocyte because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 10 2019 @ 06:44 AM
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originally posted by: Astrocyte
I was thinking to myself


This is your whole problem. You never listen. In your mind is a complex labyrinth of abstractions. You need to study non-duality probably more than anyone in the World.



You think too much. God gave you 2 ears and 1 mouth and you should use them in that proportion.


edit on 10-6-2019 by dfnj2015 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 10 2019 @ 07:20 AM
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This is something I've always wondered. If these states of being are normal and natural, why do they come with the innate desire to procreate? They still have it. If such things were normal and natural, you'd think they wouldn't be interested in procreation as naturally existing in a state that would not naturally lead to such in its course.



posted on Jun, 10 2019 @ 07:24 AM
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originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: Astrocyte
I was thinking to myself


This is your whole problem. You never listen. In your mind is a complex labyrinth of abstractions. You need to study non-duality probably more than anyone in the World.



You think too much. God gave you 2 ears and 1 mouth and you should use them in that proportion.



How many times a day do you get punched? Probably not enough.



posted on Jun, 10 2019 @ 07:30 AM
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a reply to: Astrocyte

I actually read and followed what you are saying. It’s extremely deep and difficult to put into words, but i think you did a fine job of expressing your thoughts.



posted on Jun, 10 2019 @ 08:57 AM
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a reply to: Astrocyte

Just wondering why you would choose such a book to read when you have imposed celibacy on yourself? Are you ready to break that celibacy? Do you think it wise to jump from celibacy to explicit hardcore sex acts? If you are really looking for a spiritual and sexual bonding relationship, then the spiritual and intellectual needs to be incorporated too, otherwise your frustration and subsequent choice of reading material may be due to your celibacy lasting too long.

Or, do you need to jump from celibacy straight into promiscuity, then back off to find the balance that might be right for you?
edit on 16CDT10America/Chicago017101030 by InTheLight because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 10 2019 @ 09:26 AM
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originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: Astrocyte
I was thinking to myself


This is your whole problem. You never listen. In your mind is a complex labyrinth of abstractions. You need to study non-duality probably more than anyone in the World.



You think too much. God gave you 2 ears and 1 mouth and you should use them in that proportion.



How many times a day do you get punched? Probably not enough.


You can go eff yourself.



posted on Jun, 10 2019 @ 10:00 AM
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originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: Astrocyte
I was thinking to myself


This is your whole problem. You never listen. In your mind is a complex labyrinth of abstractions. You need to study non-duality probably more than anyone in the World.



You think too much. God gave you 2 ears and 1 mouth and you should use them in that proportion.



How many times a day do you get punched? Probably not enough.


You can go eff yourself.
The private msg you sent me, lead me to think you were willing to do that for me.



posted on Jun, 10 2019 @ 12:22 PM
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a reply to: Astrocyte



when a bottom-up regulatory process like sexual arousal - related to copulation, and ultimately in mammals like us, pain-bonding - gets going, its rhythms can be "captured" by any sort of top-down imagery.

You probably meant pair-bonding rather than pain-bonding.

This isn't the best animated gif that I found, but the file-size is modest compared to the other, better examples. I find the depiction of escaping hot exhaust a little off-putting to be honest.



Many people grow up and live lives not knowing why they feel what they do specifically because they have no memory event to correspond to the feelings they feel. These people inherit the ghosts of others.

Is this what you were writing about in the previous thread about Psychopomps?



posted on Jun, 10 2019 @ 01:02 PM
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a reply to: Astrocyte

Man that was too long for me to read it all lol, but here goes..


I think you can trace every aspect of the human condition back to procreation..and not just for humans. For life in general...

There are just so many layers it seems more complex than I believe it is..


With gays, imho it is a “mistake” in the brains wiring, but that mistake doesn’t also cut out the drive for procreation.



posted on Jun, 10 2019 @ 01:04 PM
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a reply to: dfnj2015

Lol..


Surprise surprise .. someone pushing Christianity needs people to stop thinking to buy in...

Fitting.



posted on Jun, 10 2019 @ 01:06 PM
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a reply to: Woodcarver

BWAHAHAHA

TOO TRUE!



posted on Jun, 10 2019 @ 02:10 PM
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I'm not aware of anyone who has an instinctual need to procreate. Human beings are very complex and are taught all of that by the cultures that they're raised in. Because of the obviously large amounts of money it generates, society pushes really really hard to make people want to conform to the whole "get married and have babies" rule, and gay people are not insulated from all of this heavy propaganda.

So I figure it's just another example of gay folks unable to resist the incredibly thick societal brainwashing that tells them to create these little family units and raise children.

It's the 21st Century. Nobody, gay or straight or whatever, needs to get married or have children. If you think you do, then you've been assimilated.



posted on Jun, 10 2019 @ 02:24 PM
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a reply to: InTheLight

If you get a reply to your questions from the OP I’ll eat my hat. As another poster pointed out, Micheal is all mouth and no ears.



posted on Jun, 10 2019 @ 02:27 PM
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originally posted by: surfer_soul
a reply to: InTheLight

If you get a reply to your questions from the OP I’ll eat my hat. As another poster pointed out, Micheal is all mouth and no ears.


He sometimes replies to my posts, albiet rarely. What type of hat do you have?
edit on 16CDT02America/Chicago03020230 by InTheLight because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 10 2019 @ 03:01 PM
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a reply to: InTheLight

Really you must be special I’ve never seen him participate in any discussion or reply to anyone, just make rambling ops that resemble lectures more than anything else.

I have a tinfoil hat of course. It’s going to be hard to digest!



posted on Jun, 10 2019 @ 03:08 PM
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originally posted by: Blue Shift
I'm not aware of anyone who has an instinctual need to procreate. Human beings are very complex and are taught all of that by the cultures that they're raised in. Because of the obviously large amounts of money it generates, society pushes really really hard to make people want to conform to the whole "get married and have babies" rule, and gay people are not insulated from all of this heavy propaganda.

So I figure it's just another example of gay folks unable to resist the incredibly thick societal brainwashing that tells them to create these little family units and raise children.

It's the 21st Century. Nobody, gay or straight or whatever, needs to get married or have children. If you think you do, then you've been assimilated.


It is not cultural. It is inherited by DNA to ensure survival of the species. The baggage that goes with DNA programming, wanting to be strong, wanting to be handsome, wanting to be rich, increases our chance of donating to the gene pool. So the urges are real from a biological viewpoint.

Understanding where these urges derive, and their purpose, is a step forward in defeating them.



posted on Jun, 10 2019 @ 03:40 PM
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originally posted by: glend
It is not cultural. It is inherited by DNA to ensure survival of the species. The baggage that goes with DNA programming, wanting to be strong, wanting to be handsome, wanting to be rich, increases our chance of donating to the gene pool. So the urges are real from a biological viewpoint.

Understanding where these urges derive, and their purpose, is a step forward in defeating them.


The desire to be rich, strong and good looking is taught to you by culture. If you were isolated in a "Blue Lagoon" situation and were never exposed to society and its cultural norms, you'd never know anything about that stuff. You'd likely never even figure out that Tab A goes into Slot B. Instinct? Zookeepers even have to play monkey pornography to apes in the zoo to just show them what they're supposed to do.

Being rich only matters to other people, because wealth is a societal construct. Being good looking and strong is a value judgment created by people. Who says you're good looking? Other people. It's not only subjective, but it changes over time, which is why we're always trying to find the perfect combination of clothes and hairstyles and make-up/beards that will catch the eye of the other sex, who is also making their choices based on what other people are doing. That's why the Kardashian / Jenners are so popular. People look for guidance because they don't have clue. Women don't seek out rich handsome guys because it's instinctual, they do it because everything they see in the media tells them that is who they need to be with, not because they want their offspring to be strong. They want prestige and money. Your DNA doesn't even know what those things are.

Do you think cats looking at each other select according to how good they look? Nonsense. They smell another cat in heat, and the game is on. As long as you're not diseased, if you're an "ugly" cat, you're still getting sex.

I understand where these "drives" come from; one of my college degrees is Sociology. You think the way you do because you were taught to think that way by other people. You didn't come up with it on your own. As for "defeating" your societal brainwashing, good luck. But don't blame society. We're just the latest in a long line of creatures that were born without our consent into a world where the rules were made up a long time before we got here.



posted on Jun, 10 2019 @ 04:19 PM
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originally posted by: surfer_soul
a reply to: InTheLight

Really you must be special I’ve never seen him participate in any discussion or reply to anyone, just make rambling ops that resemble lectures more than anything else.

I have a tinfoil hat of course. It’s going to be hard to digest!


I'm not special, I must have pushed one of his buttons to get a reply. You know if you made a gold leaf hat, then you can 'at will' use that 'I'll eat my hat quip' any time you like.




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