An analysis of the Betty Hill "star map"

originally posted by: turbonium1

But let's go back to the 'star chart'.

Aliens have abducted Betty, but nobody really knows why. But they did.

These aliens also wish for Betty Hill to know where they reside, for some reason.

However, the aliens do not want Betty to remember where they live, after they show her, for some other reason.

So the aliens remove her memory of where they live, but not really, since Betty recalled it, under 'hypnosis'.

Why would aliens want Betty Hill to know what stars exist where they live, but then, want to remove her memory of it all?

It's a ridiculous story to begin with, but it works like a charm.


The 'star chart' story is a pure fantasy.

WOW!!! I don't think I've ever seen such a massive misunderstanding of anything in my 72 years. Seriously!

Okay, first, we DO know "why" ET abducted Betty, and thousands of others, and guess what?!! It is the very same reason Humans "abduct" wild animals, collect data, sometimes "tag" and release. You know that old advancement of Human knowledge, science, etc. Intelligent, thinking beings are kind of into that sort of thing...it's is kind of logical don't ya think?

And, no, I don't think ET "wanted" Betty to know where they lives, but, it seem that she saw something anyway that may have indicated that. And, that whole "memory" thing is seriously misunderstood, but, that is what happens when One doesn't think about it, or do any kind of research.

Did you know that there are modern medications that exhibit the same "side" effects that are commonly associated with Alien abductions? Right down to the memory loss issues...you should check out a neuropeptide called 'Orexin'.

Actually, since the Map isn't "fantasy", as you would like it to be, the story probably isn't so much "fantasy" as it is confabulation. You see, Betty drew a rather accurate "map" of a few stars, and the view is from 122 light years from Earth, near HIP-26737.

originally posted by: turbonium1
These aliens also wish for Betty Hill to know where they reside, for some reason.
However, the aliens do not want Betty to remember where they live, after they show her, for some other reason.
So the aliens remove her memory of where they live, but not really, since Betty recalled it, under 'hypnosis'.
Why would aliens want Betty Hill to know what stars exist where they live, but then, want to remove her memory of it all?

The Phenomenon is very powerful and sofisticated.Abductees wouldn't remember squat if the intelligence behind the UFOs didn't want them to.I think it has that capability.The CIA and others can probably do that too.

The Phenomenon is also characterized by extreme deception and manipulation.They tell and show people various things,lies mixed with some truth.They show them "hybrids",they make "prophecies",they reveal some of their "super secret plans" that they have with us.Sometimes they put on various "theatrical" displays.Then they do a very shallow memory erasure on the vector of disinformation a.k.a the abductee and they manipulate things in the abductees life to make sure they go public with the story.They want to confuse people and governments,to disseminate various concepts and ideeas via the abductees and contactees,to steer us in certain directions.This is what I theorize.

As to this case I think Betty is credible.The "Leader" however,not so much.He lies at least two or three times.He says he abducted them to find out "how are we similar and how are we different",yet he knows how to speak English and his crew performes complex medical procedures that require extensive knowledge of human anatomy and physiology.He then tells Betty that they are going to do a "simple... pregnancy test."Again this seems like BS and looks more like an aggressive ova extraction procedure,not a pregancy test.

And then the star map,which the Leader is very keen to show Betty despite her telling him that she doesn't really know anything about astronomy.I don't believe they would ever show us their true origin,ever.
The star map however, is useful to the Phenomenon in at least two ways:it keeps UFO community people but especially government UFO people busy working on their disinfo map and most importantly it reinforces the notion to the public that this phenomenon is extraterrestrial in origin.It couldn't be anything else going on here because they showed us a star map,right?For an ET the Leader seemed to have no ideea what "time" was.

originally posted by: Tinel
As to this case I think Betty is credible.

When Betty says in an interview that UFOs "don't abduct people, those are fantasies", is that credible?

Betty Hill Interview:

I tell people, they've been flying around here since 1932. They don't abduct people, those are fantasies.

Her therapist Dr Simon had similar thoughts about Betty's experience:

Dr Simon noted that Betty's account under hypnosis precisely matched the content of her dreams, and concluded that the Hills had had an imaginary experience whose content was based on Betty's dreams, which had been brought on by fear after a genuine close encounter with a UFO.

time to unsub - this thread s now beyond help

originally posted by: Arbitrageur

Her therapist Dr Simon had similar thoughts about Betty's experience:
"Dr Simon noted that Betty's account under hypnosis precisely matched the content of her dreams, and concluded that the Hills had had an imaginary experience whose content was based on Betty's dreams, which had been brought on by fear after a genuine close encounter with a UFO."

You are certainly determined to "see" this as pure fantasy / imagination. And, I might "see" it your way IF it were not for that damn pesky Map.

So, how do you account for the virtually/practically impossible?

I would truly like to see a rational explanation for the map and it's predictions...ya got one?


ETA: Oh, by-the-way; logically...UFO's don't abduct anything. So, yes Betty is credible when she says that UFO's don't abduct people. But, I wouldn't characterize that as a "fantasy", more like broken logic.

a reply to: Arbitrageur

I find her account about the original incident credible.I definitely don't buy all of her later claims and opinions on the Subject but that still doesn't change my mind about this case as I do not like to throw the baby out with the bathwater.If UFOs are real she was probably taken.
I believe that she had a singular real physical UFO experience and that she wanted more of them but it never came to be so she made some self delusional statements later on.Looking at her interviews she appears to me like she wanted to believe that she was special and unique,the only real abductee on Earth,the chosen one.I think that's why she made that particular statement that UFOs don't abduct people.
Anyway it's a shame we didn't have the DNA tech that we have now as we could've extracted something interesting from her dress.

originally posted by: ignorant_ape
time to unsub - this thread s now beyond help

Yes, Ignorant_ape, not ignorant ape - define ignorance - any hoo, yes, I agree this thread has gone beyond where reason can take us.

a reply to: Tinel

Betty's actions after the fact show her delusions of self importance in the phenomenon. It gave her a sense of power. Because people bought into her story, she exploited that and became a self-appointed UFO guru. She had UFO outings, responded and answered questions as if she was privy to the alien lifestyle, which of course is nonsense. One example of that is her claim that a UFO crashed near her home. When she visited the site, a crowd had gathered. She then told the crowd to go home that the aliens will come and take care of their own and the crowd left. That's first off a flat out lie (as with her abduction story) but shows she felt she could get away with it and would be believed. Why wouldn't she?

You find members on this forum do the same thing. Speak with conviction and authority on aliens like they have special knowledge. When they are held accountable for their claims, they can never follow through with evidence. So, many decades later we're still left with no evidence of aliens.

If you read and researched the entire event with an open mind, you'd find a story filled with holes and inconsintencies. There's every reason to question her abduction.

originally posted by: Ectoplasm8
a reply to: Tinel

When they are held accountable for their claims, they can never follow through with evidence. So, many decades later we're still left with no evidence of aliens.

Hard to get the kind of evidence that is needed to convince even the most stubborn skeptics when you are dealing with a phenomenon that doesn't really make mistakes and that wants to remain,if not completely hidden,at least low key enough so that world governments can maintain plausible deniability on this.
Skeptics want an alien body or a significant piece of UFO technology.Sorry folks,the Phenomenon will not give it to you.Not yet anyway.

a reply to: Tinel

LMAO the "phenomenom" is the latest deflection of the UFOtainment industry.


Evidence? Who needs evidence when you've got the "phenomenon"!

The "phenomenon" - a believers ultimative weapon against rational thinking and skepticism.

When something does not make sense, just invoke the "phenomenon".

originally posted by: moebius
a reply to: Tinel

LMAO the "phenomenom" is the latest deflection of the UFOtainment industry.


Evidence? Who needs evidence when you've got the "phenomenon"!

The "phenomenon" - a believers ultimative weapon against rational thinking and skepticism.

When something does not make sense, just invoke the "phenomenon".

The term is just short for "UFO phenomenon".Nothing new really,just used more these days.

I also have to say that I'm not really a believer.I hate to believe.I wanna know.I'm a truth seeker.Are UFOs real or not?Based on credible eye witness information and amazing congruence of details,radar hits associated with sightings,trace landing physical evidence,declassified documents and high ranking officials' statements I am 90% convinced that the UFO phenomenon is,fortunately or unfortunately,real.I admit though that it would probably be in mankind's best interest that you are correct and that this is not real as there are some very disturbing activities and implications associated with this phenomenon.

originally posted by: Ectoplasm8
a reply to: Tinel

That's first off a flat out lie (as with her abduction story) but shows she felt she could get away with it and would be believed. Why wouldn't she?

Betty's story being a "flat out lie" would be convenient for many, but it remains something you can't prove, and will probably never gain the evidence to find any level of real support.

And, while I actually do agree with you in that Betty's story, and subsequent personality changes due to PTSD tend to discredit her. However, that map is not a coincidence, and could not have been simply "made-up", as I have adequately demonstrated; that is virtually impossible.

But, again, I assert that no amount of personality deviance can affect the Astronomy, Physics, Astrometrics, Mathematics, or computer science and technology used in this analysis...

You find members on this forum do the same thing. Speak with conviction and authority on aliens like they have special knowledge. When they are held accountable for their claims, they can never follow through with evidence. So, many decades later we're still left with no evidence of aliens.

Yes some members (me) speak with conviction and some amount of authority on this subject, but, I/we do not have "special knowledge", other than the data we search for, find, and use. Like the Hipparcos mission data, freely available to anyone who wishes to use it from the University of Strasbourg, France. Or the Gliese data table that Ms. Fish used in her interpretation, also freely available, from NASA. Or the Exoplanet data I use, freely available from the European Space agency. And that is just the data...then there is the conviction that comes from years of University education, and the 40+ year career as a software engineer/architect.

I know you have some other "issues" with me, things that you do not understand, and have not made any effort to understand, prove, or disprove; you have your opinion and somehow that is enough.

Yet, when evidence is demanded of me, I provide it...just as I have more than adequately done in the Hill Map instance.
And, while I don't really care if you accept this evidence or not; you cannot say with any degree of truth that there is no evidence of extraterrestrials...

The hard reality about the Betty Hill case is that Betty was abducted by extraterrestrials, was allowed to see a display of local stars from a vantage point not available on Earth, and remembered it well enough that it could in fact be verified using modern astrometrical data...

Now, IF you had some data that could go to disproving that Betty's scribble is a match to local stars, you might have something that can offset my analysis and conclusions, but, alas, such evidence does not exist.

I think what I'm trying to say here is that IF / WHEN you have some evidence that can be applied, I'd truly like to see it and discuss it, but, all your talk with nothing to support it does nothing but build enmity, and we don't need any of that.

a reply to: james1947

originally posted by: james1947
And, while I don't really care if you accept this evidence or not;

You've taken my unrelated comment to Tinel about Betty's behavior and turned it back to your map. You've also taken my unrelated comment about members that speak with authority on UFO/aliens and turned that back to your map.
For someone who doesn't "care if you accept this evidence or not" you sure waste a lot of effort trying to convince.

Let's assume this map is alien. Can you explain why our sun is drawn with a solid-lined trade route? Meaning the aliens have been trading some type of goods with beings in our solar system. And here we have Betty claiming both she and Barney were being examined for the first time by aliens to understand how human beings function. That's the definition of exploration. If this silliness was real, our sun would be drawn with a dashed-lined exploration route since "they" obviously haven't done much research or exploring. That's only one of many other logical questions that need to be answered when you make this map a fact. You know what does make logical sense and answers everything? Betty drew a random map to fool those that believed she was abducted by aliens. With all of this computer science knowledge you boast about, you've been fooled by a common social worker.

originally posted by: james1947
I know you have some other "issues" with me, things that you do not understand, and have not made any effort to understand, prove, or disprove; you have your opinion and somehow that is enough.

"Issues". Yeah, when on Sept 1, 2009 under one of your many other incarnations you make a claim on the forum that in 1947 you were placed on Earth by extra terrestrials (you being an 'Andromedan' ET yourself) as a new born baby to grow up and learn our species, I might begin to question things. After a short amount of research, there are many questionable claims and comments that you have made on this forum. All while carrying over this same BS self righteous attitude. Deluded. Let's just leave it there. Need I say more?

originally posted by: Ectoplasm8
a reply to: james1947

You've taken my unrelated comment to Tinel about Betty's behavior and turned it back to your map. You've also taken my unrelated comment about members that speak with authority on UFO/aliens and turned that back to your map.
For someone who doesn't "care if you accept this evidence or not" you sure waste a lot of effort trying to convince.

Oh, you mean I've turned those comments toward their intended target? I'm sorry, my bad....not really! You see, YOU want Betty's story to be "that flat out lie" when it is demonstrably not a lie, or even much of a confabulation. You want to take Betty who obviously suffered from PTSD, and condemn her for it, condemn her for something she had no control over. But, that is the reaction that is quite typical of the 'non-experiencer'...though, that lack of experience isn't your fault any more than Betty's experience was hers.

No, I'm sorry man, but you can not prove Betty's story is a lie, and , I have more than adequately demonstrated that it is substantially true. You choosing to ignore the scientific reality doesn't change anything.

Let's assume this map is alien. Can you explain why our sun is drawn with a solid-lined trade route? Meaning the aliens have been trading some type of goods with beings in our solar system. And here we have Betty claiming both she and Barney were being examined for the first time by aliens to understand how human beings function. That's the definition of exploration. If this silliness was real, our sun would be drawn with a dashed-lined exploration route since "they" obviously haven't done much research or exploring. That's only one of many other logical questions that need to be answered when you make this map a fact. You know what does make logical sense and answers everything? Betty drew a random map to fool those that believed she was abducted by aliens. With all of this computer science knowledge you boast about, you've been fooled by a common social worker.

Assume...lol, "assume"!!!! In science we try to not make too many assumptions, the same holds true for Engineering, though, in all honesty an Engineer will "assume" where a scientist will not. But, that is usually accompanied with a reasonable amount of engineering experience...personally, I think 45+ years is quite enough in this instance.

And, "WHY" is it that you seem to think that anyone can know what Extraterrestrials know, have discovered, implemented into their technologies, ET's level of science, and understanding? Perhaps there is much you haven't given the proper attention to by way of understanding.

From where I sit; it is YOU WHO HAVE BEEN FOOLED by pseudo science, unqualified statements (that you have taken as truth), and "outright lies" from the established scientific community (not a place I like to think about going, but...)

Oh, and there is no boast...

"Issues". Yeah, when on Sept 1, 2009 under one of your many other incarnations you make a claim on the forum that in 1947 you were placed on Earth by extra terrestrials (you being an 'Andromedan' ET yourself) as a new born baby to grow up and learn our species, I might begin to question things. After a short amount of research, there are many questionable claims and comments that you have made on this forum. All while carrying over this same BS self righteous attitude. Deluded. Let's just leave it there. Need I say more?

Yes, I've stated that I'm Extraterrestrial, and from Andromeda, I guess you have a problem with that, but, son, that is YOUR problem, and I see no reason I should be encumbered with your resort to fantasy!!! Although, I do see that you have completely failed to understand that as well...oh well!!! Again, I fail to see how that is my problem...

I also fail to see or understand how that might have any affect on the analysis at hand. Just how does any of that affect the Astronomy, Physics, Mathematics, Computer Science, etc.? SERIOUSLY MAN, I'd like to know!!!!

Your apparent thoughts, your words, your phrasing, your insistence on certain aspects of this would seem to indicate that it is you who are deluded, as you seem to think that somehow Betty's personality (and probably mine as well) has any affect on any of this.

In the final analysis: Betty's map can not be coincidence, it can not be "made-up"...it is in fact an accurate map of a few selected local stars as viewed from HIP-26737. I have more than adequately demonstrated that. AND, sorry man, but that wee fact alone tends to validate Betty's whole experience...map, story, and all! no matter how much you hate that, it will remain FACT until it is disproven...good luck.

Again, IF you have something relevant, I'd truly like to discuss it. But, in the absence of such relevant material...

I'm trying to find the words to express myself here, but, your insistence on clinging to the non-scientific/irrational makes it difficult and frustrating. In any case sir; you have nothing to offer except many, many, words, none with any true foundation. So, as I don't think you have it in you...were done.

Except for one thing... What " BS self righteous attitude"?

ETA: There is one other mistake you have made: assuming that I posted any of this as proof of anything...Dude, it is only an analysis...evidence for the more open minded and scientific among us.

a reply to: james1947

Probability of map being random = 1.024e-94!!!!
Less than 1%.!
As Spock once said: “Fascinating!”

Intense math calcs involved there.
I heard long ago that Fish proved the map was correct, but it is still amazing she was able to do it.

Your whole current mapping project is just as Amazing!
Proves that hypno regress can really work.

Some people need to wake up and stop making it harder on themselves than it needs to be.

They are here.
They studied Betty.
She saw the map.

Simple as that.

"Can you explain why our sun is drawn with a solid-lined trade route? Meaning the aliens have been trading some type of goods with beings in our solar system."

Ever hear of the slave trade between Africa and America?

If so then the problem with that last line should be obvious.

They are not trading goods with beings in OUR solar system.

They are trading humans to beings in another solar system.

originally posted by: Tinel

originally posted by: turbonium1
These aliens also wish for Betty Hill to know where they reside, for some reason.
However, the aliens do not want Betty to remember where they live, after they show her, for some other reason.
So the aliens remove her memory of where they live, but not really, since Betty recalled it, under 'hypnosis'.
Why would aliens want Betty Hill to know what stars exist where they live, but then, want to remove her memory of it all?

The Phenomenon is very powerful and sofisticated.Abductees wouldn't remember squat if the intelligence behind the UFOs didn't want them to.I think it has that capability.The CIA and others can probably do that too.

The Phenomenon is also characterized by extreme deception and manipulation.They tell and show people various things,lies mixed with some truth.They show them "hybrids",they make "prophecies",they reveal some of their "super secret plans" that they have with us.Sometimes they put on various "theatrical" displays.Then they do a very shallow memory erasure on the vector of disinformation a.k.a the abductee and they manipulate things in the abductees life to make sure they go public with the story.They want to confuse people and governments,to disseminate various concepts and ideeas via the abductees and contactees,to steer us in certain directions.This is what I theorize.

As to this case I think Betty is credible.The "Leader" however,not so much.He lies at least two or three times.He says he abducted them to find out "how are we similar and how are we different",yet he knows how to speak English and his crew performes complex medical procedures that require extensive knowledge of human anatomy and physiology.He then tells Betty that they are going to do a "simple... pregnancy test."Again this seems like BS and looks more like an aggressive ova extraction procedure,not a pregancy test.

And then the star map,which the Leader is very keen to show Betty despite her telling him that she doesn't really know anything about astronomy.I don't believe they would ever show us their true origin,ever.
The star map however, is useful to the Phenomenon in at least two ways:it keeps UFO community people but especially government UFO people busy working on their disinfo map and most importantly it reinforces the notion to the public that this phenomenon is extraterrestrial in origin.It couldn't be anything else going on here because they showed us a star map,right?For an ET the Leader seemed to have no ideea what "time" was.

I agree, the 'star map' reinforces the belief that aliens exist. A lie that is confirmed by other lies, that's how it always works.

Nobody can see any supposed 'stars' out there, except for our 'experts', which is very convenient, of course. It is not proof of anything, obviously, and if they COULD prove it's true, they would support it with actual evidence, and let people see it for themselves, as well. Not allowed, for the opposite reason - to protect a lie.

So they make excuses for why nobody else - but them - are allowed to look through their telescopes, to see exactly what they claim to see.

It's a very expensive device, with delicate parts, and it could be damaged by someone who doesn't have the expertise to know how to properly operate it. So stay away from our precious telescopes, okay? We'll tell you what we see out in space, you don't need to see it yourself to know it's the truth!

That's what space is all about - they tell you what's there, or how far away something is. You believe it, same as you always do.

I don't. Proof is not claiming something is true, that's utter nonsense.

originally posted by: turbonium1

Nobody can see any supposed 'stars' out there, except for our 'experts', which is very convenient, of course. It is not proof of anything, obviously, and if they COULD prove it's true, they would support it with actual evidence, and let people see it for themselves, as well. Not allowed, for the opposite reason - to protect a lie.

So they make excuses for why nobody else - but them - are allowed to look through their telescopes, to see exactly what they claim to see.

It's a very expensive device, with delicate parts, and it could be damaged by someone who doesn't have the expertise to know how to properly operate it. So stay away from our precious telescopes, okay? We'll tell you what we see out in space, you don't need to see it yourself to know it's the truth!

That's what space is all about - they tell you what's there, or how far away something is. You believe it, same as you always do.

I don't. Proof is not claiming something is true, that's utter nonsense.

Ya know, any night that I desire, weather permitting of course, I can step outside look up, and actually see those stars you claim nobody can see. If I want to do all the work, I can verify much of the Astrometric data contained in the tables that are freely available to anyone. With a relatively inexpensive telescope of my own I can verify the position of any star that is visible (and that's 10,000's), I can verify it's distance, and also its stellar class.

With that same telescope I can also determine IF there are any planets as well.

And, that is really what space, or perhaps more accurately, Astronomy, and science is all about. Some "scientist" says he's done, or seen something, he writes about, and others, even YOU, can take his data and verify it...and if it doesn't "pan out", his "discovery" is swept out...So, there is absolutely no nonsense involved at all.

originally posted by: james1947

originally posted by: turbonium1

Nobody can see any supposed 'stars' out there, except for our 'experts', which is very convenient, of course. It is not proof of anything, obviously, and if they COULD prove it's true, they would support it with actual evidence, and let people see it for themselves, as well. Not allowed, for the opposite reason - to protect a lie.

So they make excuses for why nobody else - but them - are allowed to look through their telescopes, to see exactly what they claim to see.

It's a very expensive device, with delicate parts, and it could be damaged by someone who doesn't have the expertise to know how to properly operate it. So stay away from our precious telescopes, okay? We'll tell you what we see out in space, you don't need to see it yourself to know it's the truth!

That's what space is all about - they tell you what's there, or how far away something is. You believe it, same as you always do.

I don't. Proof is not claiming something is true, that's utter nonsense.

Ya know, any night that I desire, weather permitting of course, I can step outside look up, and actually see those stars you claim nobody can see. If I want to do all the work, I can verify much of the Astrometric data contained in the tables that are freely available to anyone. With a relatively inexpensive telescope of my own I can verify the position of any star that is visible (and that's 10,000's), I can verify it's distance, and also its stellar class.

With that same telescope I can also determine IF there are any planets as well.

And, that is really what space, or perhaps more accurately, Astronomy, and science is all about. Some "scientist" says he's done, or seen something, he writes about, and others, even YOU, can take his data and verify it...and if it doesn't "pan out", his "discovery" is swept out...So, there is absolutely no nonsense involved at all.

Do you see other galaxies, too? I'm referring to stars we CANNOT see ourselves, with any telescope.


They claim the closest stars are about 25 trillion miles away.

Look at some stars...

www.youtube.com...

It is completely impossible to capture details like this if a star was 25 trillion miles away, with 125x magnification.

Dude, you've been lied to all along about stars, and I'm showing you the reality, so you understand what slimeball liars they all are. I hope you stand up for what you now know to be true, just as I do.

Here's what Saturn really looks like...


www.youtube.com...

Another clip, see Jupiter at 1:30 onward...

www.youtube.com...

One more...

www.youtube.com...


They claim the closest Saturn is to Earth at any time is 746 million miles away, which is utter nonsense once again.

A camera with 125x magnification could never see the ring - or two rings - of Saturn if it was 746 million miles away. Impossible.

Do you see how Saturn and its ring(s) are spinning like a top?

These liars claim Saturn rotates once in 10 hours, 42 minutes. Come on, that's a joke!


Do you really believe anything they tell you anymore?