Pope Francis changes prayer Our Father the words of Jesus himself

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Woodcarver

and your go to insult is
"but many christians still hold on to many of the old testament teachings, rules, and stories." "So i have no problem lumping them all into one bucket sometimes."

So I am doing exactly what you do Woodie, generalising, lumping you all in one bucket, well, its ok for you to do so why not me?

How can you not see how stupid your argument is when you try and belittle me for generalising, the same thing, for copying you

You took me out of context, i said, i put the old and new testaments in the same group. Not all christians in the same group. Like i said, i’m used to the slow minds of religios, but you make it way too easy to discredit you. Thanks again for another chance to prove you just don’t have the reading comprehension to keep up in these threads.

Unless someone is saying the Lord's Prayer in Galilean Aramaic, they're saying it wrong. Language = meaning.

a reply to: Woodcarver

So let me get this

You are discrediting me for discrediting you for you generalising
Or did I assume you were not stupid enough to think christianity and Judaism were and are two different faiths

You atheists are all the same

but many christians still hold on to many of the old testament teachings, rules, and stories. So i have no problem lumping them all into one bucket sometimes.

Those are your words

Typical Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot loving atheist

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Raggedyman

Your bible says you don't have a choice. Everything is preordained. Maybe it is God's will that atheists be permitted to exist so you continue to believe in the illusion. What would you do if there was no such thing as real choice except God's choice? That's what a dictator is, especially if he controls every particle of existence from beginning to end. Being all powerful and willing to use that power to reduce an entire civilization to a handful of slaves on a boat. And you don't think democracy at least gives us the civil rights we deserve as living thinking creatures? Who is God to take that away from us?

No the bible doesnt say that at all, we have free will, pretty sure we established that

There is real choice, I am not arguing against a strawman you created. Free will is self evident

You are blaming God for mankind's actions developed by their own free will

Or you dont believe in free will so you are a robot?

originally posted by: Sillyolme
Its been changed in the past.
It was forgive us our trespasses and was changed to forgive us our debt.
The Catholics never said the Thine is the kingdom part choosing instead to end at
Lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil. Amen.

You need to remember that this was just Jesus' suggestion for what to include in your prayers. kind of an outline so you dont forget anything. It was included by Matthew as a lesson on how to pray. And sort of took on a life of its own.
Address the Father. Praise him. Praise his creations and his will.
Ask for what you need.
Ask for forgiveness for your sins.
Thank him.

It took wading through nearly 10 pages to find an on topic post You are correct there have been many changes to this prayer. It is very interesting researching ancient texts.

Even Luke and Matthew had different versions. Matthews version is 'And never bring us into temptation' so it is not outrageous to think another interpretation will come about. Testimonies by the Apostles were written in Koine Greek, this is the language from where we get our original translations, never from Aramaic (Syriac, Palestinian or Galilean Aramaic) but the transliterations have ALWAYS been poor.

For example 'temptation' was not in the oldest Greek texts.

Shown below is the Lord’s Prayer in Greek and English from the book of Luke

Πάτερ, ἁγιασθήτω τὸ ὄνομά σου· ἐλθέτω ἡ βασιλεία σου·
τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δίδου ἡμῖν τὸ καθ’ ἡμέραν·
καὶ ἄφες ἡμῖν τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἡμῶν, καὶ γὰρ αὐτοὶ ἀφίομεν παντὶ ὀφείλοντι ἡμῖν·
καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν.


Direct MODERN english translation (which is very messy and just one person translation based on their knowledge of Ancient Greek)

Father, praise to your sacred name,
your Kingdom is coming.
Give us the gift of eternal life.
and forgive us for Our Sin,
and forgive the first chosen,
and gather us away from tribulation

or how he *may have* wanted it to translate into Modern English

Father, sacred is your name
and blessed is the coming of your Kingdom.
Forgive us for our transgression
and grant us mercy away from tribulation
and give us the gift of eternal life.

readicon.com...

But this is just one translation, there are sooooo many. These are interpretations of someones intent 2000 years ago transliterated through many languages, I guess the meaning has always been kinda cool.
Praise the Creator, Kindly give us what we need, Forgive our naughtiness and lead us to eternity through Grace. All nice things. No harm in wanting any of that.

a reply to: zazzafrazz

Testimonies by the Apostles were written in Koine Greek, this is the language from where we get our original translations, never from Aramaic (Syriac, Palestinian or Galilean Aramaic) but the transliterations have ALWAYS been poor.

That makes no sense as none of the original apostles were Greek. I tend to believe that whatever language their original testimonies were written in, it was translated to greek, as Paul was a great teacher to the greeks.( though he wasn’t one of the original twelve)

Not sure that the translations have always been poor either, but I guess it’s one other thing that we’ll find out on the other side , if the Lord wishes to reveal those truths to us.

a reply to: Sheye
]It makes perfect sense, you surely can understand the oldest known texts were in Greek, but Jesus' spoken word was in Aramaic.

Perhaps it was lost in translation Australian to American English.....

a reply to: Raggedyman

No the bible doesnt say that at all, we have free will, pretty sure we established that 

A choice between salvation and damnation isn't a choice, Its an ultimatum. Give God what he wants or you will be punished. Even if you didn't do anything wrong.

There is real choice, I am not arguing against a strawman you created. Free will is self evident

If anything free will proves God is not at all what you think it is. Otherwise Hitler would be a saint and not a cautionary tale.

a reply to: Woodcarver

You're hilarious. You posted an article explaining the Masoretic text, which is not what we are talking about.

The Masoretic text is the Hebrew scribes' version of the OLD TESTAMENT. The text you and I have been discussing, the gospels, are in the NEW TEATAMENT, which by the way, was first written in GREEK.

The versions of the Hebrew OLD TESTAMENT that the authors of the gospels would have read are either the Masoretic text or the Septuagint, to grossly generalize. The Septuagint was a Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures. Greek, at the time of Christ, was the common language. The Jews would have been able to speak enough Greek to function out in society. Those who could read and write would have read Greek and Hebrew, and some would have known some Aramaic. And by the way, the books of both the old and New Testament that we have today are a bit different than in antiquity. We don't include some of the books that the Jews did back in Jesus's day, and it's the same with the books of the New Testament, which wasn't canonized until centuries after the events of Jesus and the apostles.

Back to the original question you and I were discussing: scholars don't know exactly when the gospels were written, and the consensus on dating swings back and forth every few decades.

Most recent scholarship agrees that the gospels were written between 60AD and 90AD. Your claim is that they weren't written until centuries after the events they describe.

Most scholars today contend that notes were probably kept by the writers of the gospels, and that they kept and traveled with these documents and used them in preaching and teaching, and were compiled into the gospels we know today sometime between 60 and 90 AD.

If you would like me to explain the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament, just ask.

a reply to: TzarChasm

It's a choice yes but
You are such a sucker, you believe whatever you are to,d about Christianity and God and suck it all up
You are so naive

Yes you have a choice, choose God or choose nothing
Eternal hell is a Catholic lie, you can choose not God and just become nothing

It's amazing you are not a Christian not studied in Christianity but preaching it
TC you are so brainwashed, I don't mean that in a bad way, you just believe what you were told not what is the truth

a reply to: Raggedyman

It's a choice yes but 
You are such a sucker, you believe whatever you are to,d about Christianity and God and suck it all up 
You are so naive 

Don't call me a sucker, God is watching and disapproves of your attitude. Not my problem but very much yours.

Yes you have a choice, choose God or choose nothing

Again, that's not a choice, that's a threat. Be good or be dead. That's how a dictator works. Only he lets it happen naturally because he knows he can't get away with genocide a second time, and murder can only be explained away for so long until the government has to treat him as a threat to national security. Which theoretically is already the case since we only have his word that he won't hijack humans to commit atrocities and mess with our memories so we think it's all our fault that he is punishing the human race. That would be as easy as breathing for a deity. And you can't tell me it's not a possibility. Even at 0.1% possible, it has to be taken as seriously as any terrorist threat.

Bottom line, if he wants to be part of our world, he has to play by our rules. Because if he refuses to do that, he becomes a tyrant and a danger to our society as he was a danger to noahs society. He should have skipped the invention of free will if he wanted to be the unquestioned eternal leader of the world.

originally posted by: KansasGirl
a reply to: Woodcarver

You're hilarious. You posted an article explaining the Masoretic text, which is not what we are talking about.

The Masoretic text is the Hebrew scribes' version of the OLD TESTAMENT. The text you and I have been discussing, the gospels, are in the NEW TEATAMENT, which by the way, was first written in GREEK.

The versions of the Hebrew OLD TESTAMENT that the authors of the gospels would have read are either the Masoretic text or the Septuagint, to grossly generalize. The Septuagint was a Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures. Greek, at the time of Christ, was the common language. The Jews would have been able to speak enough Greek to function out in society. Those who could read and write would have read Greek and Hebrew, and some would have known some Aramaic. And by the way, the books of both the old and New Testament that we have today are a bit different than in antiquity. We don't include some of the books that the Jews did back in Jesus's day, and it's the same with the books of the New Testament, which wasn't canonized until centuries after the events of Jesus and the apostles.

Back to the original question you and I were discussing: scholars don't know exactly when the gospels were written, and the consensus on dating swings back and forth every few decades.

Most recent scholarship agrees that the gospels were written between 60AD and 90AD. Your claim is that they weren't written until centuries after the events they describe.

Most scholars today contend that notes were probably kept by the writers of the gospels, and that they kept and traveled with these documents and used them in preaching and teaching, and were compiled into the gospels we know today sometime between 60 and 90 AD.

If you would like me to explain the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament, just ask.

Nope, if you read my post again, you’ll see that i said, that the oldest known copies are hundreds of years old. The originals, which we don’t have, are thought to be written around 40- 90 years after,

originally posted by: Blue Shift
Why does it end with an invocation of the Egyptian Sun God, Amen-Ra? Is that who the prayer is for?

Amun-Ra is different.

Different languages, different cultures, different locations, different times.

Amun and amen just happen to sound similar.

God spelled backwards is dog. Do you see significance in that or is it just an accident of language?

It say in the bible that ANY one who changes it goes to Hell!
just how time have the changed it?
do you know what a Chinese wiper is? look it up.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: TzarChasm

You want the power to vote the god you want into power
That’s funny, you want to decide who is in charge like you are the all powerful

I got a feeling philosophy isn’t on your agenda
I have a feeling you blame God when things don’t go your way, funny atheist


Anyway, voting for a god of your choice is irrelevant to free will, I don’t think you have thought this through.
Free will is not voting on who God is anymore than voting who the president is

Why shouldn't god be treated like a public servant instead of a dictator? Speaking as an American, we have a history of dealing with people like that. If you want to own people and control their fate, you are a menace to free will on general principle.

Americans may believe they have a history of "dealing with people like that".

In truth, the vast majority of 20th Century dictators have been supported by American money or have been directly placed in power by US agency.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: TzarChasm

You want the power to vote the god you want into power
That’s funny, you want to decide who is in charge like you are the all powerful

I got a feeling philosophy isn’t on your agenda
I have a feeling you blame God when things don’t go your way, funny atheist


Anyway, voting for a god of your choice is irrelevant to free will, I don’t think you have thought this through.
Free will is not voting on who God is anymore than voting who the president is

Why shouldn't god be treated like a public servant instead of a dictator? Speaking as an American, we have a history of dealing with people like that. If you want to own people and control their fate, you are a menace to free will on general principle.

You are confusing consequence with choice.

Throughout the Bible people are presented with and make choices, good or bad, and those choices have consequences.

God gave Himself up to be tortured to death so that we could have a choice that for us does not have dire consequences.

We have freedom to choose how we live and relate. That has never been removed as an option for any of us.

If God had wanted us to always do what He wants, He would have the power and capability to enforce it, absolutely.

As it is, we all have freedom to choose as we will, not as God wills. This doesn't remove the consequences of the choice/s but there it is.

Please consider the choices you have made and ask yourself honestly if you are happy that those choices are ultimately the best for you. At any stage God has granted that you can receive absolution from the consequences of bad or ill-considered choices.

God has never removed his offering to you of relationship with Him and the good things that brings.

Of course, it probably means that you have to intend behavioral change within yourself if your decision to choose Him is genuine.

originally posted by: chr0naut
God spelled backwards is dog. Do you see significance in that or is it just an accident of language?

If I was praying to a Dog-God (like Anubis), then it might not be such an accident. Since we're talking about a context of prayers and gods, Amen = Amen-Ra is not nearly the stretch you indicate.

originally posted by: chr0naut
As it is, we all have freedom to choose as we will, not as God wills. This doesn't remove the consequences of the choice/s but there it is.

If this god supposedly created and manipulates down to atoms the way of existence, then this entity giving us free will is like a magician asking us to "pick any card" from a stacked deck. Nothing we do or choose will in any way change the plan.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Threatening me with a God you don’t believe in, really
Think about that for a second

And no it’s not a possibility, to me that’s ridiculous, you don’t seem to have the ability to think
Sadly TC you have no concept of love

But on the upside, come judgement day I believe, you will suffer for your sins and then just be nothing, burnt away as chaff, become as nothing, a memory in Gods mind
Isn’t that what you want anyway, isn’t that Nirvana

a reply to: Blue Shift

Doesn’t seem like you understand the term free will
You seem confused, if God manipulates down to the atoms that doesn’t interfere with will.