Pope Francis changes prayer Our Father the words of Jesus himself

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Doesn’t seem like you understand the term free will
You seem confused, if God manipulates down to the atoms that doesn’t interfere with will.

I'm the one confused?

originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: chr0naut
God spelled backwards is dog. Do you see significance in that or is it just an accident of language?

If I was praying to a Dog-God (like Anubis), then it might not be such an accident. Since we're talking about a context of prayers and gods, Amen = Amen-Ra is not nearly the stretch you indicate.

Now you are conflating Amun-Ra with Anubis.



Amun-Ra was part of a pantheon of similar Egyptian gods. This means in rational terms Amun-Ra must be subservient to the realm of the Egyptian gods and to the rules that govern such pantheons.

However, the God of the Bible is held to be the only existent God and all other 'gods' are made-up.

The God of the Bible is a monotheistic God, there are no forces, realms or other gods that have supremacy over the God of the Bible.

So, the God of the Bible is vastly different and supreme over the false god Amun-Ra.

When a Hebrew prayer ends with the word 'amen' it is an affirmation of the content of the prayer, the word has meaning in Hebrew/Canaanite language, it is not an invocation of a false god.

originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Doesn’t seem like you understand the term free will
You seem confused, if God manipulates down to the atoms that doesn’t interfere with will.

I'm the one confused?

No, no, no... well, a bit, um well reconsidering, yes actually.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: TzarChasm

You want the power to vote the god you want into power
That’s funny, you want to decide who is in charge like you are the all powerful

I got a feeling philosophy isn’t on your agenda
I have a feeling you blame God when things don’t go your way, funny atheist


Anyway, voting for a god of your choice is irrelevant to free will, I don’t think you have thought this through.
Free will is not voting on who God is anymore than voting who the president is

Why shouldn't god be treated like a public servant instead of a dictator? Speaking as an American, we have a history of dealing with people like that. If you want to own people and control their fate, you are a menace to free will on general principle.

You are confusing consequence with choice.

Throughout the Bible people are presented with and make choices, good or bad, and those choices have consequences.

God gave Himself up to be tortured to death so that we could have a choice that for us does not have dire consequences.

We have freedom to choose how we live and relate. That has never been removed as an option for any of us.

If God had wanted us to always do what He wants, He would have the power and capability to enforce it, absolutely.

As it is, we all have freedom to choose as we will, not as God wills. This doesn't remove the consequences of the choice/s but there it is.

Please consider the choices you have made and ask yourself honestly if you are happy that those choices are ultimately the best for you. At any stage God has granted that you can receive absolution from the consequences of bad or ill-considered choices.

God has never removed his offering to you of relationship with Him and the good things that brings.

Of course, it probably means that you have to intend behavioral change within yourself if your decision to choose Him is genuine.

You deflected all of my points and just rephrased the other guy raggedyman who also deflected all of my points. Nothing you said actually disproved my logic. If anything, this part backs me up completely:

If God had wanted us to always do what He wants, He would have the power and capability to enforce it, absolutely. 

Then God is a problem.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: TzarChasm

You want the power to vote the god you want into power
That’s funny, you want to decide who is in charge like you are the all powerful

I got a feeling philosophy isn’t on your agenda
I have a feeling you blame God when things don’t go your way, funny atheist


Anyway, voting for a god of your choice is irrelevant to free will, I don’t think you have thought this through.
Free will is not voting on who God is anymore than voting who the president is

Why shouldn't god be treated like a public servant instead of a dictator? Speaking as an American, we have a history of dealing with people like that. If you want to own people and control their fate, you are a menace to free will on general principle.

Americans may believe they have a history of "dealing with people like that".

In truth, the vast majority of 20th Century dictators have been supported by American money or have been directly placed in power by US agency.

I'm talking about we the people and our philosophy about civil rights and fascist dictatorships that own people instead of respecting them. More than one tyrant has been taught a lesson courtesy of allied forces. I don't remember reading about the great election where we decided who gets to preside over the divine court of human afterlives and how much power this god person has over the fabric of reality. Dont tell me that's not a violation of our rights.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: TzarChasm

Threatening me with a God you don’t believe in, really
Think about that for a second

And no it’s not a possibility, to me that’s ridiculous, you don’t seem to have the ability to think
Sadly TC you have no concept of love

But on the upside, come judgement day I believe, you will suffer for your sins and then just be nothing, burnt away as chaff, become as nothing, a memory in Gods mind
Isn’t that what you want anyway, isn’t that Nirvana

You're really just proving to me that your sense of justice is vindictive and spiteful. Probably because of God being a hateful and violent dictator. You need to read Corinthians again and figure out how to be a truly loving and genuine follower of Jesus. I'm not even religious and I know that stuff.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: TzarChasm

Threatening me with a God you don’t believe in, really
Think about that for a second

And no it’s not a possibility, to me that’s ridiculous, you don’t seem to have the ability to think
Sadly TC you have no concept of love

But on the upside, come judgement day I believe, you will suffer for your sins and then just be nothing, burnt away as chaff, become as nothing, a memory in Gods mind
Isn’t that what you want anyway, isn’t that Nirvana

You're really just proving to me that your sense of justice is vindictive and spiteful. Probably because of God being a hateful and violent dictator. You need to read Corinthians again and figure out how to be a truly loving and genuine follower of Jesus. I'm not even religious and I know that stuff.

Nothing personal but it’s hardly relevant what you think, who are you, an internet hero?

You are the one demanding you dictate at God, a God you don’t believe in

Yeah anyway, my sense of justice is vindictive and spiteful. I bet yours is loving and embracing, feeding isis and terrorists guns and money, giving them a helping hand. Bet you would have supported the oppressors in WW2 or maybe Stalin and Mao after that. I bet you just want to snuggle up with those poor dictators and hug it out

Corinthians, you sure don’t know your stuff, you haven’t a clue

You will get your nirvana

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: TzarChasm

Threatening me with a God you don’t believe in, really
Think about that for a second

And no it’s not a possibility, to me that’s ridiculous, you don’t seem to have the ability to think
Sadly TC you have no concept of love

But on the upside, come judgement day I believe, you will suffer for your sins and then just be nothing, burnt away as chaff, become as nothing, a memory in Gods mind
Isn’t that what you want anyway, isn’t that Nirvana

You're really just proving to me that your sense of justice is vindictive and spiteful. Probably because of God being a hateful and violent dictator. You need to read Corinthians again and figure out how to be a truly loving and genuine follower of Jesus. I'm not even religious and I know that stuff.

Nothing personal but it’s hardly relevant what you think, who are you, an internet hero?

You are the one demanding you dictate at God, a God you don’t believe in

Yeah anyway, my sense of justice is vindictive and spiteful. I bet yours is loving and embracing, feeding isis and terrorists guns and money, giving them a helping hand. Bet you would have supported the oppressors in WW2 or maybe Stalin and Mao after that. I bet you just want to snuggle up with those poor dictators and hug it out

Corinthians, you sure don’t know your stuff, you haven’t a clue

You will get your nirvana

And you continue to make my case for me, illustrating my points and all.

a reply to: 2012newstart
Yeah temptation is pretty much Satan's job.
Satan being the human mind reacting to the animal body it is influenced by...
Which "God" supposedly created for us to experience...
Nowhere in the Bible does the metaphorical character "Satan" EVER do anything without being commanded to do so by "God"...
It also states that God says he allowed evil....
So... This is complete BS...

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: TzarChasm

You want the power to vote the god you want into power
That’s funny, you want to decide who is in charge like you are the all powerful

I got a feeling philosophy isn’t on your agenda
I have a feeling you blame God when things don’t go your way, funny atheist


Anyway, voting for a god of your choice is irrelevant to free will, I don’t think you have thought this through.
Free will is not voting on who God is anymore than voting who the president is

Why shouldn't god be treated like a public servant instead of a dictator? Speaking as an American, we have a history of dealing with people like that. If you want to own people and control their fate, you are a menace to free will on general principle.

You are confusing consequence with choice.

Throughout the Bible people are presented with and make choices, good or bad, and those choices have consequences.

God gave Himself up to be tortured to death so that we could have a choice that for us does not have dire consequences.

We have freedom to choose how we live and relate. That has never been removed as an option for any of us.

If God had wanted us to always do what He wants, He would have the power and capability to enforce it, absolutely.

As it is, we all have freedom to choose as we will, not as God wills. This doesn't remove the consequences of the choice/s but there it is.

Please consider the choices you have made and ask yourself honestly if you are happy that those choices are ultimately the best for you. At any stage God has granted that you can receive absolution from the consequences of bad or ill-considered choices.

God has never removed his offering to you of relationship with Him and the good things that brings.

Of course, it probably means that you have to intend behavioral change within yourself if your decision to choose Him is genuine.

You deflected all of my points and just rephrased the other guy raggedyman who also deflected all of my points. Nothing you said actually disproved my logic. If anything, this part backs me up completely:

If God had wanted us to always do what He wants, He would have the power and capability to enforce it, absolutely. 

Then God is a problem.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: TzarChasm

You want the power to vote the god you want into power
That’s funny, you want to decide who is in charge like you are the all powerful

I got a feeling philosophy isn’t on your agenda
I have a feeling you blame God when things don’t go your way, funny atheist


Anyway, voting for a god of your choice is irrelevant to free will, I don’t think you have thought this through.
Free will is not voting on who God is anymore than voting who the president is

Why shouldn't god be treated like a public servant instead of a dictator? Speaking as an American, we have a history of dealing with people like that. If you want to own people and control their fate, you are a menace to free will on general principle.

Americans may believe they have a history of "dealing with people like that".

In truth, the vast majority of 20th Century dictators have been supported by American money or have been directly placed in power by US agency.

I'm talking about we the people and our philosophy about civil rights and fascist dictatorships that own people instead of respecting them. More than one tyrant has been taught a lesson courtesy of allied forces. I don't remember reading about the great election where we decided who gets to preside over the divine court of human afterlives and how much power this god person has over the fabric of reality. Dont tell me that's not a violation of our rights.

Well, I am and Australian citizen and clearly recall the Australian constitutional crisis which saw a democratically elected government thrown out by, essentially the decision of single person. The US was behind that (as revealed by ex-US military whistle blower Christopher Boyce).

'You the people' have interfered in multiple peaceable and democratically elected government processes, such as as in Palau, Hawaii, Samoa, Puerto Rico, The Philippines, Mexico, The Dominican Republic, Egypt, Italy, Laos, Syria, Indonesia, Lebanon, Brazil, Vietnam, Yugoslavia and Yemen. There are also those who could point out US interference in the UK and French democratic governmental processes.

The US espouses freedom but has the highest incarceration rate and absolute number of citizens incarcerated, of any country in the world.

The US was one of the last countries to abolish slavery. The US still has unresolved systemic racial inequality issues.

In the US, the country where medical technology and procedures should be the best in the world, people still suffer and die unnecessarily of medical issues because they have the wrong or inadequate insurance.

The US government openly and automatically runs surveillance on every one of its citizens, in contradiction to its constitution.

Face it, to the greater world, who hears all the jingoist slogans but isn't indoctrinated by the propaganda, the US are the bad guys of the 20th century.

-----------------

In regard to a theocracy, there's no single "great election" but each and every one of us has that choice at any and all times.

Please name the right that is infringed.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: TzarChasm

Threatening me with a God you don’t believe in, really
Think about that for a second

And no it’s not a possibility, to me that’s ridiculous, you don’t seem to have the ability to think
Sadly TC you have no concept of love

But on the upside, come judgement day I believe, you will suffer for your sins and then just be nothing, burnt away as chaff, become as nothing, a memory in Gods mind
Isn’t that what you want anyway, isn’t that Nirvana

You're really just proving to me that your sense of justice is vindictive and spiteful. Probably because of God being a hateful and violent dictator. You need to read Corinthians again and figure out how to be a truly loving and genuine follower of Jesus. I'm not even religious and I know that stuff.

Nothing personal but it’s hardly relevant what you think, who are you, an internet hero?

You are the one demanding you dictate at God, a God you don’t believe in

Yeah anyway, my sense of justice is vindictive and spiteful. I bet yours is loving and embracing, feeding isis and terrorists guns and money, giving them a helping hand. Bet you would have supported the oppressors in WW2 or maybe Stalin and Mao after that. I bet you just want to snuggle up with those poor dictators and hug it out

Corinthians, you sure don’t know your stuff, you haven’t a clue

You will get your nirvana

And you continue to make my case for me, illustrating my points and all.

Well it’s fortunate I have because I haven’t seen you make one relevant or intelligent statement yet

Just complaining because God doesn’t serve you

About 18 mths ago this pope said that the devil never existed. That he was made up, so as to scare the sheople into believing in the church/god ect. Then all his men in black dresses, were outted as a gang of pedo`s. Next thing he says is that the devil was attacking the church. So to be honest I dont care what ever he says, or changes in the buybull. Because it is all bs, just a control mechanism for the elite.

a reply to: Sheye

I echo your sentiment. 'Help us to not fall into temptation' may be a more correct version also, but that's for others to argue & determine. My two cents, as yours.

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: TzarChasm

Threatening me with a God you don’t believe in, really
Think about that for a second

And no it’s not a possibility, to me that’s ridiculous, you don’t seem to have the ability to think
Sadly TC you have no concept of love

But on the upside, come judgement day I believe, you will suffer for your sins and then just be nothing, burnt away as chaff, become as nothing, a memory in Gods mind
Isn’t that what you want anyway, isn’t that Nirvana

You're really just proving to me that your sense of justice is vindictive and spiteful. Probably because of God being a hateful and violent dictator. You need to read Corinthians again and figure out how to be a truly loving and genuine follower of Jesus. I'm not even religious and I know that stuff.

Nothing personal but it’s hardly relevant what you think, who are you, an internet hero?

You are the one demanding you dictate at God, a God you don’t believe in

Yeah anyway, my sense of justice is vindictive and spiteful. I bet yours is loving and embracing, feeding isis and terrorists guns and money, giving them a helping hand. Bet you would have supported the oppressors in WW2 or maybe Stalin and Mao after that. I bet you just want to snuggle up with those poor dictators and hug it out

Corinthians, you sure don’t know your stuff, you haven’t a clue

You will get your nirvana

And you continue to make my case for me, illustrating my points and all.

Well it’s fortunate I have because I haven’t seen you make one relevant or intelligent statement yet

Just complaining because God doesn’t serve you

God should serve the people just as any honest leader would. Not own us like property.

a reply to: chr0naut

I'm not saying America is perfect, my point is that a theocratic dictatorship is not okay and we have been part of that conflict in recent history. That's why most of the modern world keeps government and religion apart. Because divine authority infringes on civil rights all across the globe.

originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
a reply to: Sheye

I echo your sentiment. 'Help us to not fall into temptation' may be a more correct version also, but that's for others to argue & determine. My two cents, as yours.

Yes.. I like “help us to not fall into temptation” better. It seems more correct to me.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: TzarChasm

Threatening me with a God you don’t believe in, really
Think about that for a second

And no it’s not a possibility, to me that’s ridiculous, you don’t seem to have the ability to think
Sadly TC you have no concept of love

But on the upside, come judgement day I believe, you will suffer for your sins and then just be nothing, burnt away as chaff, become as nothing, a memory in Gods mind
Isn’t that what you want anyway, isn’t that Nirvana

You're really just proving to me that your sense of justice is vindictive and spiteful. Probably because of God being a hateful and violent dictator. You need to read Corinthians again and figure out how to be a truly loving and genuine follower of Jesus. I'm not even religious and I know that stuff.

Nothing personal but it’s hardly relevant what you think, who are you, an internet hero?

You are the one demanding you dictate at God, a God you don’t believe in

Yeah anyway, my sense of justice is vindictive and spiteful. I bet yours is loving and embracing, feeding isis and terrorists guns and money, giving them a helping hand. Bet you would have supported the oppressors in WW2 or maybe Stalin and Mao after that. I bet you just want to snuggle up with those poor dictators and hug it out

Corinthians, you sure don’t know your stuff, you haven’t a clue

You will get your nirvana

And you continue to make my case for me, illustrating my points and all.

Well it’s fortunate I have because I haven’t seen you make one relevant or intelligent statement yet

Just complaining because God doesn’t serve you

God should serve the people just as any honest leader would. Not own us like property.

So you admit that God owns you, interesting

a reply to: TzarChasm

Except atheism and Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot
North Korea is a atheist state

Yes let’s separate religion and politics but atheism must be included

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: chr0naut

I'm not saying America is perfect, my point is that a theocratic dictatorship is not okay and we have been part of that conflict in recent history. That's why most of the modern world keeps government and religion apart. Because divine authority infringes on civil rights all across the globe.

Which rights specifically?

Universal Declaration of Human Rights

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: TzarChasm

Threatening me with a God you don’t believe in, really
Think about that for a second

And no it’s not a possibility, to me that’s ridiculous, you don’t seem to have the ability to think
Sadly TC you have no concept of love

But on the upside, come judgement day I believe, you will suffer for your sins and then just be nothing, burnt away as chaff, become as nothing, a memory in Gods mind
Isn’t that what you want anyway, isn’t that Nirvana

You're really just proving to me that your sense of justice is vindictive and spiteful. Probably because of God being a hateful and violent dictator. You need to read Corinthians again and figure out how to be a truly loving and genuine follower of Jesus. I'm not even religious and I know that stuff.

Nothing personal but it’s hardly relevant what you think, who are you, an internet hero?

You are the one demanding you dictate at God, a God you don’t believe in

Yeah anyway, my sense of justice is vindictive and spiteful. I bet yours is loving and embracing, feeding isis and terrorists guns and money, giving them a helping hand. Bet you would have supported the oppressors in WW2 or maybe Stalin and Mao after that. I bet you just want to snuggle up with those poor dictators and hug it out

Corinthians, you sure don’t know your stuff, you haven’t a clue

You will get your nirvana

And you continue to make my case for me, illustrating my points and all.

Well it’s fortunate I have because I haven’t seen you make one relevant or intelligent statement yet

Just complaining because God doesn’t serve you

God should serve the people just as any honest leader would. Not own us like property.

God does serve and answers the requests of the faithful:

“Call to Me, and I will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know.’” - Jeremiah 33:3 NKJV.

“It shall come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear” - Isaiah 65:24.

“Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.” - Matthew 7:7.

“Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.” - Matthew 18:19.

“If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.” - Matthew 21:22 NIV.

“Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours” - Mark 11:24 NIV.

“If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?” - Luke 11:13.

“And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.” - John 14:13-14.

“And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.” - John 16:23.

“Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.” - Hebrews 4:16.

“Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus. - Hebrews 10:19.

“Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.” - 1 John 5:14-15 NKJV.

“The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and produces wonderful results.” - James 5:16 NLT.

“If My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land” - 2 Chronicles 7:14.

“If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.” - John 15:7 NIV.

One might also suggest that the nation group of the citizens of the US can claim ownership of its individual citizens.

a reply to: chr0naut

What a beautiful post.

You changed my day with those scriptures.

Thank you !