Unlimited being

originally posted by: Nothin
a reply to: InTheLight

If we look back to the OP:

"The losers are the one who believe they are losers The winners are the ones, that believe they are winners The ones that have no need of belief. These ones, are the knower’s, free to just be themselves. Unlimited being. "

, perhaps we could consider the idea that those believe they are limited: are limited?

So if one chooses to live in this 'regular society', with it's obligations and limitations, is there also place for occasional contemplation what it might be like, to be without limitations?

Can we not have a little of both?


Meaning: we participate here in consensual reality, with it's limitations; and sometimes we explore other possibilities, where many of those limitations seem to not be relative at all?

If so: then perhaps one may be a limited being, who occasionally experiences various states of unlimited being?

(Although there may be limitations there, that we simply haven't recognized yet?)

Exactly what I was thinking too but my occasional ethereal states of being seem to also be limited or grounded to the physical. It may be that we are energy beings in different states of being, so I'm not sure if that is also being limited within the confines of space/time, energy and matter in different forms(?).

originally posted by: InTheLight

originally posted by: Nothin
a reply to: InTheLight

If we look back to the OP:

"The losers are the one who believe they are losers The winners are the ones, that believe they are winners The ones that have no need of belief. These ones, are the knower’s, free to just be themselves. Unlimited being. "

, perhaps we could consider the idea that those believe they are limited: are limited?

So if one chooses to live in this 'regular society', with it's obligations and limitations, is there also place for occasional contemplation what it might be like, to be without limitations?

Can we not have a little of both?


Meaning: we participate here in consensual reality, with it's limitations; and sometimes we explore other possibilities, where many of those limitations seem to not be relative at all?

If so: then perhaps one may be a limited being, who occasionally experiences various states of unlimited being?

(Although there may be limitations there, that we simply haven't recognized yet?)

Exactly what I was thinking too but my occasional ethereal states of being seem to also be limited or grounded to the physical. It may be that we are energy beings in different states of being, so I'm not sure if that is also being limited within the confines of space/time, energy and matter in different forms(?).

Ya: it seems we are attempting to discuss matters, which are mostly beyond words, no?

As we go through different phases, it does seem like a new set of limitations is always discovered.
And then: we discover a portal, to a deeper realm, which again appears vast, and at first experience, seemingly and potentially limitless.
Would we be fools, for assuming that we had access to a plane without limitations?

(PS: these words are not meant to be taken literally, as they are merely a feeble attempt to describe the indescribable).

originally posted by: Nothin

originally posted by: InTheLight

originally posted by: Nothin
a reply to: InTheLight

If we look back to the OP:

"The losers are the one who believe they are losers The winners are the ones, that believe they are winners The ones that have no need of belief. These ones, are the knower’s, free to just be themselves. Unlimited being. "

, perhaps we could consider the idea that those believe they are limited: are limited?

So if one chooses to live in this 'regular society', with it's obligations and limitations, is there also place for occasional contemplation what it might be like, to be without limitations?

Can we not have a little of both?


Meaning: we participate here in consensual reality, with it's limitations; and sometimes we explore other possibilities, where many of those limitations seem to not be relative at all?

If so: then perhaps one may be a limited being, who occasionally experiences various states of unlimited being?

(Although there may be limitations there, that we simply haven't recognized yet?)

Exactly what I was thinking too but my occasional ethereal states of being seem to also be limited or grounded to the physical. It may be that we are energy beings in different states of being, so I'm not sure if that is also being limited within the confines of space/time, energy and matter in different forms(?).

Ya: it seems we are attempting to discuss matters, which are mostly beyond words, no?

As we go through different phases, it does seem like a new set of limitations is always discovered.
And then: we discover a portal, to a deeper realm, which again appears vast, and at first experience, seemingly and potentially limitless.
Would we be fools, for assuming that we had access to a plane without limitations?

(PS: these words are not meant to be taken literally, as they are merely a feeble attempt to describe the indescribable).

Yes, this is beyond words but I think we are making headway because you and I seem to understand what we are both describing, so it's all good.

originally posted by: InTheLight

originally posted by: Nothin

originally posted by: InTheLight

originally posted by: Nothin
a reply to: InTheLight

If we look back to the OP:

"The losers are the one who believe they are losers The winners are the ones, that believe they are winners The ones that have no need of belief. These ones, are the knower’s, free to just be themselves. Unlimited being. "

, perhaps we could consider the idea that those believe they are limited: are limited?

So if one chooses to live in this 'regular society', with it's obligations and limitations, is there also place for occasional contemplation what it might be like, to be without limitations?

Can we not have a little of both?


Meaning: we participate here in consensual reality, with it's limitations; and sometimes we explore other possibilities, where many of those limitations seem to not be relative at all?

If so: then perhaps one may be a limited being, who occasionally experiences various states of unlimited being?

(Although there may be limitations there, that we simply haven't recognized yet?)

Exactly what I was thinking too but my occasional ethereal states of being seem to also be limited or grounded to the physical. It may be that we are energy beings in different states of being, so I'm not sure if that is also being limited within the confines of space/time, energy and matter in different forms(?).

Ya: it seems we are attempting to discuss matters, which are mostly beyond words, no?

As we go through different phases, it does seem like a new set of limitations is always discovered.
And then: we discover a portal, to a deeper realm, which again appears vast, and at first experience, seemingly and potentially limitless.
Would we be fools, for assuming that we had access to a plane without limitations?

(PS: these words are not meant to be taken literally, as they are merely a feeble attempt to describe the indescribable).

Yes, this is beyond words but I think we are making headway because you and I seem to understand what we are both describing, so it's all good.

Yes. Thank-you for the connection!

Some other times, beyond words, art may also give us glimpses.
Hope you enjoy the sonic, and visual art of this vid:

originally posted by: InTheLight

Also to whereislogic, being limited in gaining knowledge only through religion, in my opinion, is also limiting oneself.

I don't think anyone exists or has ever existed that was limited in gaining knowledge only through religion, so not exactly sure what you're talking about there. Can anyone be stopped from learning to read and write, or mathematics just because they take an interest in religion? Or just because they value the upbuilding knowledge of God higher than that of human philosophies and tradition, especially those that teach very little (trivialities) or are just wrong (but sound appealing to the human ego and play on people's pride, designed to make the one who values such ideas feel smart and enlightened, or insightful, openminded, self-important, etc.)?

Btw, personally, I have acquired quite a bit of knowledge about all sorts of religions including human religious philosophies/ideas and traditions (or traditional philosophies, such as the ones coming from Eastern philosophy about enlightenment, nirvana or opening your third eye for example; which are based on religious philosophy btw, rooted in Hinduism and Buddhism, sometimes Confucianism, Taoism, Pantheism, etc.; depending on what idea one is talking about). It's easy to pick up all sorts of stuff when you spend several hours a week for several years talking to people about these subjects (even more so in a personal setting, in private conversations*) with all sorts of backgrounds. You get to hear ideas and arguments in favor of these ideas all the time. *: people tend to talk more freely when it's a private conversation, away from those acquaintances, friends and family who might influence what opinions and thoughts a person might be willing to share or publicly admit to. People have a tendency to conform to those ideas, opinions and thoughts that are popular or admired by their friends and associates, or the society they live in, and more reluctant to accept, discuss or acknowledge ideas, opinions, thoughts or even facts/truths/realities that are less popular or unpopular in the circles they hangout in; ideas, opinions, etc. that might actually make them more outcasts or disliked. It can sometimes take quite a bit of strength or effort to think differently from that which is popular around oneself, nevertheless: "If you realize that what everybody thinks is not necessarily correct, you can find the strength to think differently. While it may seem that all others think the same way, does this mean that you should? Popular opinion is not a reliable barometer of truth. Over the centuries all kinds of ideas have been popularly accepted, only to be proved wrong later. Yet, the inclination to go along with the crowd persists." Quoted from the article in my signature.

The ruler of this system of things (a.k.a. the Matrix among some conspiracy theorists) tries his very best to make certain truthful information or knowledge about God very unpopular amongst all sorts of societies and 'circles'. People don't like being compared to religious zealots, fanatics or cultists, certainly not in the eyes of their friends, acquaintances and family members. That's one way to get it done and keep people in the dark about specific truthful knowledge. The masses have also been conditioned to not want to seem closedminded for rejecting philosophies and views that are falsely called "knowledge" (or insight, illumination, enlightenment, light, etc.; or falsely perceived as such), or comparing those to "a babbling brook of trivialities" (coming back to my previous comment, allthough I didn't actually do that for anything specific in that comment*, one may read that implication into that comment in regards to the philosophies and views in the OP, you won't get an argument from me if one comes to that conclusion, but I didn't want to say anything that might unnecessarily offend someone even though it's just my opinion that I'm not forcing on anyone else). *: I used the more general term "lame human philosophy", lame =lacking needful or desirable substance

Knowledge: Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2

Knowledge (gnoʹsis) is put in a very favorable light in the Christian Greek Scriptures. However, not all that men may call “knowledge” is to be sought, because philosophies and views exist that are “falsely called ‘knowledge.’” (1Ti 6:20) The recommended knowledge is about God and his purposes. (2Pe 1:5) This involves more than merely having facts, which many atheists have; a personal devotion to God and Christ is implied. (Joh 17:3; 6:68, 69) Whereas having knowledge (information alone) might result in a feeling of superiority, our knowing “the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge,” that is, knowing this love by experience because we are personally imitating his loving ways, will balance and give wholesome direction to our use of any information we may have gained.​—Eph 3:19.

E·piʹgno·sis, a strengthened form of gnoʹsis (e·piʹ, meaning “additional”), can often be seen from the context to mean “exact, accurate, or full knowledge.” Thus Paul wrote about some who were learning (taking in knowledge) “yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge [“a real knowledge,” TC; “a personal knowledge,” Ro; “clear, full knowledge,” Da ftn] of truth.” (2Ti 3:6, 7) ... Such accurate knowledge should be sought by all Christians (Eph 1:15-17; Php 1:9; 1Ti 2:3, 4), it being important in putting on “the new personality” and in gaining peace.​—Col 3:10; 2Pe 1:2.
...

Now that type of knowledge and truth, is truly enlightening and it will set one free from anything produced by this system of things to keep people in the dark about it, such as certain falsehoods (so people no longer have to be slaves to this system of things and the ruler of this system of things and the "spirit of the world").

“The Truth Will Set You Free”—How? Awake!—2012

MILLIONS of people feel that they are free when, in fact, they are not. Many, for example, are enslaved to superstitions. Others fear the dead, whom they may try to appease with expensive offerings. Still others, unsure of what happens when a person dies, have an inordinate fear of death itself. Can such ones be set free from these mental, emotional, and even financial burdens? Yes! As the words of Jesus Christ quoted above show, the key to freedom is the truth. But what truth? Truth in general or truth of a specific kind?

Jesus did not leave us in doubt. “If you remain in my word,” he said, “you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:31, 32) Jesus’ “word,” his teachings, are found in the Bible.

When Jesus said “the truth will set you free,” he was primarily referring to being set free from sin and death. Nevertheless, knowing the truth about God’s Word also sets us free from such things as superstition, fear of the dead, and the inordinate fear of dying. How?

1. Freedom from superstition. Many believe that certain objects or certain numbers will bring bad luck. Others refrain from making important decisions unless they first look for a good omen or consult a horoscope or spirit medium.

How Bible truth sets free: ...
...

a reply to: InTheLight
Also note the earlier mentioned 2 Timothy 4:3,4:

3 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome* [Or “healthful; beneficial.”] teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled.* [Or “to tell them what they want to hear.”] 4 They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories.

Part of that process of tickling people's ears (telling them what they want to hear) is shaping the philosophies/ideas and supposed insights being expressed and shared or taught, proposed or promoted to sound appealing and nurture, encourage or fuel the self-importance of anyone who values them higher than a babbling brook of trivialities for example. To highlight one aspect of this phenomenon described at 2 Timothy 4:3,4.

self-important = "having an exaggerated sense of one's own value or importance." (google dictionary)

For example, doesn''t the notion of being able to unlock superhero or superhuman abilities, or (almost) magical abilities, or "unlimited being" or the notion of already having opened one's third eye and being 'in the light' increases one's own sense of value or importance? That was a rhetorical question, obviously it does and there wouldn't be anything wrong with it if any of these notions were actually true (a true possibility, or the real/actual state of mind in the 3rd eye case). But when it's false, or a false story (not a possibility to unlock, or not something to seek without being doomed to failure because of being send on a wild goose chase, a misleading direction to supposedly achieve true enlightenment, or nirvana), it can be quite distracting from the "beneficial teaching" described at 2 Timothy 4:3,4 and for related reasons harmful to the mind. You still end up being kept in the dark about these beneficial teachings that will set one free from the Master Manipulator of this system of things. Who spends a lot of time using his tools (both human pawns and technological) in this system of things to promote false teachings, false philosophies/ideas and darkness masquerading as light. The entertainment business is quite proficient for example at promoting these false ideas (well, at least it's still labeled as "entertainment", that's something I guess). Take for example the movie "Doctor Strange" from the popular Marvel Universe film-series, which is filled with the promotion of the kind of examples that I used in this comment, one of the reasons these philosophies are very popular (coming back to my previous comment about the popularity of ideas and the effect they have in societies and circles of friends, acquaintances and family).

Proverbs 14:12,15-18

12 There is a way that seems right to a man,

But in the end it leads to death.

15 The naive* [Or “inexperienced.”] person believes every word,

But the shrewd one ponders each step.

16 The wise one is cautious and turns away from evil,

But the stupid one is reckless* [Or “furious.”] and overconfident. [whereislogic: coming back to the topic of self-importance]

17 The one who is quick to anger acts foolishly,

But the man who thinks things out* [Or “the man of thinking abilities.”] is hated.

18 The naive* [Or “inexperienced.”] will inherit foolishness,

But the shrewd are crowned with knowledge.

Isaiah 5:20,21

20 Woe to those who say that good is bad and bad is good,

Those who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness,

Those who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

21 Woe to those wise in their own eyes

And discreet in their own sight!

No human should overestimate themselves when it comes to enlightenment and insight (or being 'in the light'), or the beneficial type of knowledge and truth that will actually enlighten to set you free from things like superstition or harmful attempts to communicate with the dead or spirits (the spirit world), etc. Cause it will hamper one's ability to actually be enlightened by the "beneficial teaching" Paul was talking about at 2 Timothy 4:3,4, or the "accurate knowledge of truth" at 2 Timothy 3:6,7. Actually, both these letters to Timothy are an excellent introduction to the bible if one ever decides to have a more indepth study of it (rather than reading it to look for excuses to justify the feeling indoctinated and conditioned by "this system of things"). You could try this translation of 1 Timothy, it's only 6 short chapters. Might even take less time than reading all my commentary in this thread. Of course there is this aversion to overcome that I spoke about in my comment about popularity, popular opinion or popular ideas.

2 Corinthians 4:3-6

If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things* [Or “this age.” See Glossary.] has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination* [Or “light.”] of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through. 5 For we are preaching, not about ourselves, but about Jesus Christ as Lord and ourselves as your slaves for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God is the one who said: “Let the light shine out of darkness,” and he has shone on our hearts to illuminate them with the glorious knowledge of God by the face of Christ.

Light in a Darkened World
Real science, knowledge of realities compared to unverified philosophies and stories

originally posted by: whereislogic

Now that type of knowledge and truth, is truly enlightening and it will set one free from anything produced by this system of things to keep people in the dark about it, such as certain falsehoods (so people no longer have to be slaves to this system of things and the ruler of this system of things and the "spirit of the world").

A bit more information about the spirit of the world from that link cause it's relevant to the notion described in the OP of "unlimited being" as described there (ignoring for a moment that it was a bit short and vague and therefore open to different interpretations, similar to the way slogans and mantras work and gain popularity because they are easier to agree with that way; see The Manipulation of Information under the heading "Slogans and Symbols" for more info):

Although people act on individual preferences, those who manifest the spirit of the world give evidence of certain basic attitudes, ways of doing things, and aims in life that are common to the present system of things of which Satan is ruler and god.
...
1 John 5:19: “The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” ... It is a spirit of selfishness and pride that is so pervasive that it is like the air that humans breathe. [whereislogic: also related to what I said about self-importance]
...
What are some of the characteristics of the spirit of the world against which we need to be on guard?

1 Cor. 2:12: “Now we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God, that we might know the things that have been kindly given us by God.” (If the spirit of the world takes root in a person’s thinking and desires, its fruitage is soon seen in actions that manifest that spirit. ... This you should keep in mind as you consider the following manifestations of the spirit of the world.)

Doing what a person wants to do, without regard for the will of God [whereislogic: not that different than the general encouragement in the OP for so-called "unlimited being", or at least very easy for someone to interpret it that way, get that out of it; I'm inclined to say that that's basically what it boils down to]

Satan urged Eve to decide for herself what was good and what was bad. (Gen. 3:3-5; in contrast see Proverbs 3:5, 6.) Many who follow Eve’s course do not know what God’s will for mankind is, nor are they interested in finding out. They just “do their own thing,” as they say. ...

Reacting to situations on the basis of pride

It was Satan who first allowed an overestimation of self to corrupt his heart. (Compare Ezekiel 28:17; Proverbs 16:5.) Pride is a divisive force in the world of which he is ruler, causing people to consider themselves better than those of other races, nations, language groups, and economic status.

And those having other viewpoints or conflicting* viewpoints I might add. *: Conflicting with their own, such as considering the words or phrases in the OP to be a "babbling brook of trivialities", or to be a demonstration of the dark evil spirit of the world with possible harmful endresults or effects for example (or to be playing on those sentiments, basic attitudes and characteristics). Also note the mention of "overestimation of self" again (coming back to my earlier commentary and bible quotations about self-importance and overconfidence).

Let's have a look at some of the phrases (mantra-like) used in the OP and somewhat work around the vagueness with some assumptions. To see how they promote, encourage or tickle the emotions of pride, self-importance and/or an "overestimation of self", i.e. encourages the beholder to overestimate himself (especially if they take the phrase, mantra to heart, take it serious, think by themselves: ''hey, that makes sense'); or how they work against the development of the counter-emotion, humility coupled with a well-balanced realistic estimation of oneself.

The losers are the one who believe they are losers

Now this doesn't exactly seem to promote the notion of self-reflecting on one's faults, failings and limitations and coming to terms with those. Doing something about it, trying harder not to repeat past mistakes. Doing that, or thinking of themselves as a failure or loser in some situations in the past (and contemplating possible similar future situations) so that one can do something about it, doesn't make one a "loser" (in a negative sense, assuming that was how the word was meant, I already mentioned to be using some assumptions to work around the vagueness of these phrases or mantras). One could interpret these words by the bible writer Paul to be of someone who thinks of himself as a "loser" in that sense, but they actually show a remarkably useful quality for personal improvement: humility (coupled with a healthy balanced few of oneself recognizing the dangers in one's thinking and attitudes).

Romans 7:15, 17-25

15 For I do not understand what I am doing. For I do not practice what I wish, but I do what I hate.
...
17 But now I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that resides in me. 18 For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, there dwells nothing good; for I have the desire to do what is fine but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good that I wish, but the bad that I do not wish is what I practice. 20 If, then, I do what I do not wish, I am no longer the one carrying it out, but it is the sin dwelling in me.

21 I find, then, this law in my case: When I wish to do what is right, what is bad is present with me. 22 I really delight in the law of God according to the man I am within, 23 but I see in my body* [Lit., “members.”] another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sin’s law that is in my body.* 24 Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death? 25 Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then, with my mind I myself am a slave to God’s law, but with my flesh to sin’s law.

I'm counting that bolded realization by Paul in that context as a win, making him a 'winner' (and I hope I'm clear how I'm using the label now, humility and meekness is a quality of 'winners' for me).

The winners are the ones,
that believe they are winners

Not if they're not winning on the humility and meekness front. Or the type of love described by Jesus when he said we should even love our enemies. Donald Trump for example may claim victory or 'winning' whenever he feels like it, but it won't make him a winner in my eyes. And what counts as 'winning' or a "winner" in the eyes of the one who uses or likes that phrase anyway? This perhaps?
"The ones that have no need of belief."
That's what makes one a 'winner'? Way too vague, everybody beliefs something or the other, even those who deny they either have or even have a need for belief (which is then often something they express a belief therein, including when using the 2 previous phrases or mantras in succession; not that that was done in the OP as in the OP declaring he/she had no need of belief, allthough I guess one can read that into the OP or subsequent commentary, that's the thing about vague phrases and mantras).
"These ones, are the knower’s,
free to just be themselves."
Covered the implication earlier.

originally posted by: whereislogic

To see how they promote, encourage or tickle the emotions of pride, self-importance and/or an "overestimation of self", i.e. encourages the beholder to overestimate himself...

I meant: "how they could potentially promote, encourage or tickle". But I'm out of space for that edit. It depends on what the beholder reads into it, attaches to it or how it triggers, tickles or fuels already existing sentiments (in turn depending on how strong those sentiments, emotions and characteristics already are developed by this system of things, thinking about some things quoted about the subject of the spirit of the world, most of my commentary focusses on pride, overconfidence and an overestimation of self* as defining characteristics of the spirit of the world).

*: Basically those who believe they are 'winners' (viewed positively) but they are actually not (when it comes to certain positive qualities they aren't even all that interested in, or have a poor self-awareness as to the state of their humility for example, or what thoughts, opinions, attitudes or behaviour has a positive or a negative effect on their level of humility, especially regarding how they view themselves in terms of overconfidence). Those who believe they are 'knowers' (for example just because they feel they "have no need for belief", or for other reasons) but they actually know very little about the things that matter most (for their own benefit, beneficial teaching or knowledge such as the importance of developing humility to fight pride, and the proper self-awareness of existing pride and other harmful emotions, thoughts, attitudes, beliefs/opinions, etc.). And those who believe (and fear) that if they were to think less of themselves in that manner, seeing room for improvement even though seeing themselves as a "miserable man" in the way Paul saw it, that that would make them "losers" (in a negative sense, possibly even to the extent of being doomed to neverending failure, or with the sense that one shouldn't be so supposedly 'negative' about oneself, that it has no advantage, a false teaching to discourage proper balanced self-reflection and recognizing earlier mentioned dangers and obstacles for developing humility and other fruitage of God's spirit rather than the spirit of the world and the need to counter the latter with the former; and to discourage realization that other approaches often come from the same source and cause for the currently existing spirit of the world and system of things, including people's system of thinking, or way of thinking about these matters or themselves).

edit: There was also a "few" in my previous comment that should have been "view" (the healthy balanced view of oneself I mentioned)

a reply to: whereislogic

No human should overestimate themselves when it comes to enlightenment and insight (or being 'in the light'), or the beneficial type of knowledge and truth that will actually enlighten to set you free from things like superstition or harmful attempts to communicate with the dead or spirits (the spirit world), etc. Cause it will hamper one's ability to actually be enlightened by the "beneficial teaching" Paul was talking about at 2 Timothy 4:3,4, or the "accurate knowledge of truth" at 2 Timothy 3:6,7. Actually, both these letters to Timothy are an excellent introduction to the bible if one ever decides to have a more indepth study of it (rather than reading it to look for excuses to justify the feeling indoctinated and conditioned by "this system of things"). You could try this translation of 1 Timothy, it's only 6 short chapters. Might even take less time than reading all my commentary in this thread. Of course there is this aversion to overcome that I spoke about in my comment about popularity, popular opinion or popular ideas.

I separated God from man-made religion long ago, which freed me from man-made limitations as you describe above. Specifically opening up to the spirit world. I did not go seeking the spirit world, it found me and when I sought help from my religious leaders and peers, they told me it was forbidden and to turn away from it. Problem was, it did not turn away from me. So this too is a form of indoctrination and conditioning by the church and its leaders and members, thus, to me, limiting my spiritual path through this life.

I never said I was enlightened, I claim that there is much knowledge to be gained from being 'inthelight', that is my experience not an overestimation of myself in any way. Others here on ATS know the other path of the spirit that you perhaps fear to tread, but that is fine, if you find solace in scripture then stay with that and grow (as you think you will), however for some of us scripture is stagnation.

I also read the old and new testatments many times, and the passages you post here are not meant to expand one's mind, rather to set it on a stringent path as per someone else's interpretation, while others' interpretations are dismissed; again limiting. There, of course, is beneficial teaching within scripture while, alternatively, there is beneficial teaching within other culture's scriptures, but turning away from the spiritual world due to fear of tapping into higher knowledge/form of being is a shame and to those that conform to others' perceived interpretations of what is right and wrong for others' is not my chosen path, and woe to those that let themselves be led by the deceivers.

“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.” Buddha

"Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." Romans 12:2

"God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” John 4:24

a reply to: Nothin

Thank you too and I did enjoy the sonic, although it did sound very mid-eastern (over there).

Back at ya with visuals half Earth half the outer limits.

The losers are the one who believe they are losers

Now this doesn't exactly seem to promote the notion of self-reflecting on one's faults, failings and limitations and coming to terms with those. Doing something about it, trying harder not to repeat past mistakes.

a reply to: whereislogic
Now I can see where your going and find it as useful, but you have missed my message. What I am saying is what the enemy wants is for you to believe you are a looser, With that in mind you will see the benefit of the phrase.

The winners are the ones, that believe they are winners

a reply to: whereislogic
Here my focus is that being a winner is just a belief! I am not saying its the way! What you share is useful, but I see you have missed the mark with what I have said. This is fine, cause there is nothing to lose or gain ! only realization of the truth.

a reply to: ancientthunder

And adepts know.

a reply to: InTheLight
Resisting wicked spirit forces in the spirit world (almost the only type that actively pursues contact with human beings and almost always they pose as angels of light or ministers of what is supposedly right) is not limiting. It will set you free as explained before. Most people who are in bondage to the spirit world, and the ruler of the spirit world, the spirit of the world and the ruler of this system of things, don't know it. They think they are being enlightened by these forces or spirits. But in reality they want to turn you away from the real light. They also use false religion for that. Spirit mediums are a part of false religion (Babylon the Great; which is also where the idea of an immaterial soul that can be seperated from the body, usually at death, comes from, another lie or piece of darkness to ensnare and enslave people to myths/false stories, false ideas, falsehoods and get them engaged in activities that are unhealthy to the mind and heart).

The only healthy contact with the spirit world would be through God's holy spirit (his active force which he uses to accomplish his will and educate those who are open to this particular spirit; this requires one to stop limiting oneself by rejecting this holy spirit in favor of the spirits that use pleasing falsehoods to draw you in, often flattering ones that play on pride and encourage an overestimation of self on the enlightenment front).

2 Corinthians 11:12-15

12 But what I am doing I will continue to do, in order to eliminate the pretext of those who are wanting a basis for being found equal to us in the things about which they boast. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works.

When you open your mind to those who want to steer you away from true enlightenment by the use of fake enlightenment (or darkness posing as light), you will end up in darkness (limiting yourself or being limited to darkness; if you want to use that term).

a reply to: whereislogic

All your beliefs of the spirit world being evil comes from someone else's intrepretations of scripture and the conditioning and limitations that you have accepted. You are free to embrace those beliefs as others are free to choose other beliefs.

I am not trying to sway you over to the dark side (as you might think) rather I want to impart my experiences of how religious bias has shown me the limitations of ONLY believing others' interpretations and beliefs. In other words, I am an explorer, of sorts, an explorer of all things invisible.

"For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.' Collossians 1:16

NOTE: in heaven and on earth...visible and invisible...

originally posted by: InTheLight
a reply to: whereislogic

All your beliefs of the spirit world being evil comes from someone else's intrepretations of scripture...

Nah, it's spelled out quite clearly, no interpretation required. Of course I understand that you are not in any way impressed by these warnings because of your conditioned opinion about Scripture (and aversion to biblical truth, which limits you in the wrong way).

I am not trying to sway you over to the dark side (as you might think)...

Nah, not really, there would be way more subtle ways at doing this than giving a demonstration of all the warnings in the bible I'm aware of, including believing in or spreading the illusion of light which is actually darkness. No one serious about swaying me over to the dark side would call themselves anything involving the word "light", whether that be Angel of Light, ConstructionOfLight or InTheLight, all 3 are accountnames in use on ATS, that would never work on me, I'd never fall for it because of the last warning and quotation from Corinthians; for that matter, there is also one that calls himself EnlightenedOne, same thing. Enlightened One translates to Illuminatus in Latin btw, and Illuminati are those who proclaim themselves to be Enlightened Ones. As most people on this website seem to realize, those who refer to themselves as Illuminati are neither enlightened nor to be trusted to be able to enlighten anyone, hiding in the shadows with secret societies is the first big clue. True light doesn't hide in the shadows and true knowledge isn't found among a select few (elite) of secret societies who want to feel special (self-importance). The same counts for Freemasonry and Scientology (and their degrees and Thetan levels, a very familiar pyramidic pattern of such societies and clubs, the higher your degree or level, the more people will look up to you in such societies or clubs, fueling self-importance and playing on pride, making people want to get higher levels to satisfy their egos).

...rather I want to impart my experiences of how religious bias has shown me the limitations of ONLY believing others' interpretations and beliefs. In other words, I am an explorer, of sorts, an explorer of all things invisible.

And yet, unsurprisingly to me, your teachings and beliefs are entirely consistent with everything I know about what you just referred to as "the dark side". They follow the characteristic pattern of the spirit of the world and human philosophy (inspired by the teachings of demons). They are entirely unsurprising to me cause I studied them indepth (as well as their effect on the human mind, how you think, how you reason, how you argue, there is nothing surprising there as it is well described in the Scriptures as well, pride and self-importance being 2 of the more blatant effects of the source of your beliefs, opinions and teachings, including your delusion that you're free, more openminded or less limited than those who reject this darkness).

I hope that wasn't too harsh, just calling 'm as I see 'm. Trying to be honest by using the word "delusion". By thinking of true light or enlightenment (the truth of these matters) as "religious bias" (darkness, supposed limitations affecting your imagined freedom) and darkness (eg. spiritism) as light, you are providing a demonstration of having been affected by those doing what is described at Isaiah 5:20,21 (quoted earlier, swapping out darkness and light with eachother). Your ideas and way of thinking about these things is also nothing new.

Ecclesiastes 1:9,10

What has been is what will be,

And what has been done will be done again;

There is nothing new under the sun.

10 Is there anything of which one may say, “Look at this—it is new”?

It already existed from long ago;

It already existed before our time.

Spiritism: Glossary

The belief that the spirits of dead humans survive the death of the physical body and that they can and do communicate with the living, especially through a person (a medium) particularly susceptible to their influence. The Greek word for “practice of spiritism” is phar·ma·kiʹa, which literally means “druggery.” This term came to be connected with spiritism because in ancient times, drugs were used when invoking the power of the demons in order to practice sorcery.​—Ga 5:20; Re 21:8.

Spiritism: Reasoning From the Scriptures

Definition: Belief that a spirit part of humans survives death of the physical body and can communicate with the living, usually through a person who serves as a medium. Some people believe that every material object and all natural phenomena have indwelling spirits. Sorcery is the use of power that is acknowledged to be from evil spirits. All forms of spiritism are strongly condemned in the Bible.

Is it really possible for a human to communicate with the “spirit” of a dead loved one?

Eccl. 9:5, 6, 10: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun. All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol [the grave], the place to which you are going.”

Ezek. 18:4, 20: “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” (So the soul is not something that survives the death of the body and with which living humans can thereafter communicate.)

Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.” (When the spirit is said to ‘go out’ of the body, this is merely another way of saying that the life-force has ceased to be active. Thus, after a person dies, his spirit does not exist as an immaterial being that can think and carry out plans apart from the body. It is not something with which the living can communicate after a person’s death.)
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With whom are those who endeavor to speak with the dead actually communicating?

The truth about the condition of the dead is clearly stated in the Bible. But who tried to deceive the first human pair about death? Satan contradicted God’s warning that disobedience would bring death. (Gen. 3:4; Rev. 12:9) In time, of course, it became obvious that humans did die as God said they would. Reasonably, then, who was responsible for inventing the idea that humans really do not die but that some spirit part of man survives the death of the body? Such a deception fits Satan the Devil, whom Jesus described as “the father of the lie.” (John 8:44; see also 2 Thessalonians 2:9, 10.) Belief that the dead are really alive in another realm and that we can communicate with them has not benefited mankind. On the contrary, Revelation 18:23 says that, by means of the spiritistic practices of Babylon the Great, “all the nations were misled.” The spiritistic practice of ‘talking with the dead’ is actually a fraudulent deception that can put people in contact with the demons (angels that became selfish rebels against God) and often leads to a person’s hearing unwanted voices and being harassed by those wicked spirits.
...

Continues in next comment.

a reply to: InTheLight

Is there harm in seeking healing or protection by spiritistic means?

Gal. 5:19-21: “The works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, idolatry, practice of spiritism . . . As to these things I am forewarning you, the same way as I did forewarn you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom.” (Resorting to spiritism for help means that a person believes Satan’s lies about death; he is seeking advice from people who endeavor to draw power from Satan and his demons. Such a person thus identifies himself with those who are avowed enemies of Jehovah God. Instead of being truly helped, anyone persisting in such a course suffers lasting harm.)

Luke 9:24: “Whoever wants to save his soul [or, life] will lose it; but whoever loses his soul for my sake [because he is a follower of Jesus Christ] is the one that will save it.” (If a person deliberately violates the clearly stated commands of God’s Word in an endeavor to safeguard or preserve his present life, he will lose out on the prospect of eternal life. How foolish!)

2 Cor. 11:14, 15: “Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness.” (So we should not be misled when some of the things done by spiritistic means seem to be temporarily of benefit.)

See also pages 156-160, under “Healing.”

Is it wise to resort to spiritistic means to learn what the future holds or to assure oneself of success in some undertaking?

Isa. 8:19: “In case they should say to you people: ‘Apply to the spiritistic mediums or to those having a spirit of prediction who are chirping and making utterances in low tones,’ is it not to its God that any people should apply?”

Lev. 19:31: “Do not turn yourselves to the spirit mediums, and do not consult professional foretellers of events, so as to become unclean by them. I am Jehovah your God.”

2 Ki. 21:6: “[King Manasseh] practiced magic and looked for omens and made spirit mediums and professional foretellers of events. He did on a large scale what was bad in Jehovah’s eyes, to offend him.” (Such spiritistic practices actually involved turning to Satan and his demons for help. No wonder it was “bad in Jehovah’s eyes,” and he brought severe punishment upon Manasseh for it. But when he repented and gave up these bad practices, he was blessed by Jehovah.)

What harm can there be in playing games that involve a form of divination or in seeking the meaning of something that seems to be an omen of good?

...

Are wicked spirits able to take on human form?

...

How can a person be freed from spiritistic influence?

...

Might wanna read up on the last one one day. Cause you are not truly free. You are getting your information from "the father of the lie" and everyone who has come under his influence, i.e. fallen for his lies (trapped in his darkness, ensnared). Your ideas, opinions, beliefs, way of thinking and arguing (such as the way of thinking of truth as "religious bias") works as a snare, and false religion is at the very heart of spreading it, conditioning and indoctrinating people with that darkness (so if you want to talk about who is actually applying "religious bias" here...in this case religious bias against biblical truths, biblical teachings that you don't consider to be true because of this conditioned bias, aversion* actually, as that was the word I preferred; they have a religious origin, both the aversion as well as the earlier mentioned ideas and beliefs/opinions). *: that aversion caused by the false notion of these truths limiting you in a negative way (rather than freeing you from things like superstition and being a slave to the darkness you hold so dear or are attracted to or desire to do if we're talking about a way of life, including what path you are spiritually walking; thus if one wants to use the concept of 'limiting', biblical truths only limit or protect one from the darkness, that which is unhealthy for your mind and consequently your soul/life/your very being, ignoring its council because of this aversion will only drag you deeper into the darkness of this system of things and make you a slave to the spirit of the world), among other reasons

You are trapped in Babylon the Great (regardless if you are affiliated with any particular religion, your ideas and beliefs and way of thinking have still been shaped by Babylon the Great).
Babylon the Great

Definition: ... In time, Babylonish religious beliefs and practices spread to many lands. So Babylon the Great became a fitting name for false religion as a whole.
...
Ancient Babylonian religious concepts and practices are found in religions worldwide

“Egypt, Persia, and Greece felt the influence of the Babylonian religion . . . The strong admixture of Semitic elements both in early Greek mythology and in Grecian cults is now so generally admitted by scholars as to require no further comment. These Semitic elements are to a large extent more specifically Babylonian.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria (Boston, 1898), M. Jastrow, Jr., pp. 699, 700.

Their gods: There were triads of gods, and among their divinities were those representing various forces of nature and ones that exercised special influence in certain activities of mankind. (Babylonian and Assyrian Religion, Norman, Okla.; 1963, S. H. Hooke, pp. 14-40)
...
Belief regarding death: “Neither the people nor the leaders of religious thought [in Babylon] ever faced the possibility of the total annihilation of what once was called into existence. Death was a passage to another kind of life.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, p. 556.
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Practice of astrology, divination, magic, and sorcery: Historian A. H. Sayce writes: “[In] the religion of ancient Babylonia . . . every object and force of nature was supposed to have its zi or spirit, who could be controlled by the magical exorcisms of the Shaman, or sorcerer-priest.” (The History of Nations, New York, 1928, Vol. I, p. 96) “The Chaldeans [Babylonians] made great progress in the study of astronomy through an effort to discover the future in the stars. This art we call ‘astrology.’”—The Dawn of Civilization and Life in the Ancient East (Chicago, 1938), R. M. Engberg, p. 230.
...

Like I mentioned, nothing new there (Eccl. 1:9). Likewise, the way of thinking or arguing that biblical truths, including God's advice, commands and laws are unduly restrictive (or limiting a person who takes them seriously in a negative way, such as the advice, commands and laws against spiritism) is also nothing new.
Whose Laws Will You Put First? Happiness—How to Find It

Since natural laws seem rather impersonal, few individuals have problems in accepting them. ... But what about laws on conduct or morals?
...Satan suggested to Eve that God’s law was unduly restrictive. (Genesis 3:1-6) Satan’s appeal was​—‘No rules. Set your own standards.’ That anti-law spirit has been popular down through history, even until today. ...

a reply to: InTheLight
The information in the bible that warns for the harmful effects of the darkness that is so popular in the world (such as spiritism, including the belief in an immaterial soul that can live seperate from the body, or be reincarnated for example, these things are all connected including the notion of communication with spirits or the spirit world) is there to benefit yourself by encouraging to stay away from that which is harmful, the darkness. It is not needlessly inhibiting, burdensome or limiting your freedom for “where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom.” (2 Corinthians 3:17; James 1:25) James even refers to God's law as “the perfect law that belongs to freedom.” This is the same concept that Jesus referred to when he said that the truth will set you free; obviously only if you take the warnings against darkness seriously and stay away from it, cause “what sharing does light have with darkness?” (2 Corinthians 6:14)

Otherwise the darkness will consume you as one thinks and proclaims to be 'in the light' or enlightened (more openminded than certain others, more free than certain others, possibly even feeling 'better' than others who resist and speak against the darkness, feeling on the right path as opposed to those on a wrong restrictive path or negative one, etc.).

originally posted by: ancientthunder

The winners are the ones, that believe they are winners

Here my focus is that being a winner is just a belief! I am not saying its the way! What you share is useful, but I see you have missed the mark with what I have said. This is fine, cause there is nothing to lose or gain ! only realization of the truth.

If you do not mean what you are saying, it's best to learn a better way of saying it. Since you stated your phrase as if it's a fact/truth/reality/certainty (all synonyms) that "the winners are the ones, that believe they are winners". Keyverb being "are" in that statement, you could express it as such because of the usage of that verb:

"winners" = "the ones, that believe they are winners"

According to you, that is a reality/truth/fact/certainty. Even though it's nicely open to the interpretation in the eye of the beholder what a 'winner' supposedly is, what qualifies one as a 'winner' (other than merely believing to be a winner). Because of that, the whole phrase isn't saying much really. And open to turning it into version 2 of the philosophy/idea that you now proposed as a truth/fact/certainty: that "being a winner is just a belief", which I find too vague to analyze whether or not that's always true in all situations (depending on how exactly you mean that; it raises questions such as what type of 'winner' are we talking about? Winning at what? Does the same phrase apply to all types of 'winners' or ways of winning something?). When an athlete wins some contest, him being a winner is not just a belief (in the sense that it's not also a fact/reality by using the word "just"), it's the fact/reality of the matter that he won, and thus is a winner of that particular contest (what he believes about it is irrelevant). That's about as far as I'm willing to go in my analysis cause it already seems to show that the statement: "being a winner is just a belief" (with the implication that it's not a fact that the athlete in my example actually is a winner because it's "just a belef", that's how that phrase is often used and enters the mind and thinking of the unwary beholder), is already wrong, i.e. not true/factual/certain/absolute/correct, without error (all synonyms again listed on Thesaurus.com on the page for "factual" under the subheading "accurate").

originally posted by: whereislogic

originally posted by: ancientthunder

The winners are the ones, that believe they are winners

Here my focus is that being a winner is just a belief! I am not saying its the way! What you share is useful, but I see you have missed the mark with what I have said. This is fine, cause there is nothing to lose or gain ! only realization of the truth.

If you do not mean what you are saying, it's best to learn a better way of saying it. Since you stated your phrase as if it's a fact/truth/reality/certainty (all synonyms) that "the winners are the ones, that believe they are winners". Keyverb being "are" in that statement, you could express it as such because of the usage of that verb:

"winners" = "the ones, that believe they are winners"

According to you, that is a reality/truth/fact/certainty. Even though it's nicely open to the interpretation in the eye of the beholder what a 'winner' supposedly is, what qualifies one as a 'winner' (other than merely believing to be a winner). Because of that, the whole phrase isn't saying much really. And open to turning it into version 2 of the philosophy/idea that you now proposed as a truth/fact/certainty: that "being a winner is just a belief", which I find too vague to analyze whether or not that's always true in all situations (depending on how exactly you mean that; it raises questions such as what type of 'winner' are we talking about? Winning at what? Does the same phrase apply to all types of 'winners' or ways of winning something?). When an athlete wins some contest, him being a winner is not just a belief (in the sense that it's not also a fact/reality by using the word "just"), it's the fact/reality of the matter that he won, and thus is a winner of that particular contest (what he believes about it is irrelevant). That's about as far as I'm willing to go in my analysis cause it already seems to show that the statement: "being a winner is just a belief" (with the implication that it's not a fact that the athlete in my example actually is a winner because it's "just a belef", that's how that phrase is often used and enters the mind and thinking of the unwary beholder), is already wrong, i.e. not true/factual/certain/absolute/correct, without error (all synonyms again listed on Thesaurus.com on the page for "factual" under the subheading "accurate").

Why do you figure that art should be intellectually dissected, as if were an attempted factual statement?
There are plenty of BS false statements on the ATS board, that could use your surgical analysis.

For me: one of the beautiful aspects of written art forms, is that 'reality/truth/fact/certainty', can be suspended for a few moments.
We go to that place of 'not-knowing', and simply revel in possibilities.

Other than the artists intention: the art then comes to mean different things, to different folks.
The art piece then becomes it's own 'thing', with a 'life' of it's own.

For myself, InTheLight, and others: this 'thing', has helped us enjoy a glimpse beyond the world of things.
And of course: it has also inspired you in a way!

So as a work of art: it 'works'!