The Case for Roswell: Part III (Section B)

THE CASE FOR ROSWELL PART III

The Timeline of Events
Section B

Part I can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...
Part II can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...
Part III, Section A can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Again, fair warning that this is going to be a long read…but I wanted to be very thorough. I’d highly recommend reading the first parts before going on, as there is no recapping here…

This section will cover the events just for Saturday, July 5th, as this was an extremely busy day in the Roswell saga…

Saturday, July 5.1947

Reposting the map image from earlier, first we’ll speak of the second crash site…



Many timelines list a Jason Ridgway (admitted name change) as a rancher and friend of Brazel’s, who also discovers a crash site. Some research indicates the real name to be Stephen Marlowe, and again, due to various conflicting evidence, and a lack of support for this witness, I’ll omit it from my timeline.

The next claim in most timelines is that archaeologists, including W. Curry Holden, working the sites around Roswell stumbled across the impact site where the object had crashed. One of them headed to the closest phone to tell Sheriff George Wilcox of the discovery of the remains of a crashed aircraft of some kind. I personally couldn’t find evidence to support the phone call to Wilcox. There is also some doubt as to Holden’s condition when interviewed, as he was 96 and close to death at the time. However, Holden does state, “I was involved . . . I was there and I saw everything." Thomas Carey, a CUFOS (Citizens against UFO Secrecy) field investigator did find some interesting info as well, that may be difficult for the skeptics to address…

The bank statements also show that Holden made a huge deposit of $4,834 to his account on
July 15, 1947, which makes one wonder how he came by such a large sum compared to his other bank deposits.

Just as interesting as what he
found was what Randle didn't find. The archive included all of Holden's
income tax records for all the years from the 1930s through the 1970s -
except for one year, 1947! Income tax records can reveal much about a
person's lifestyle, contacts and associates, and activities during the
course of a year. The archivist thought it was odd that only one year
was missing but could offer no explanation other than "the family still
controls what goes into and what comes out of the collection." During
one conversation with the archivist, I noticed that his voice was lower
than usual and asked him if he felt uncomfortable talking about Curry
Holden for some reason. He answered: "Yes, Mrs. Holden is sitting twenty
feet away." We had in hand enough circumstantial information to suggest
that Holden could have been where Schultz said he was on that fateful
day, but nothing definite.

aliens.xaviermedia.com...

There are still ongoing efforts to locate other participants in this particular occurrence, but of course anyone involved may be deceased or near it at this point. The link above does cite some anonymous statements that are interesting, if not substantiated enough to serve as evidence. It is worth the read.

The next event stated in most timelines, is that Wilcox called the local fire department to alert them about the crash. One truck, with fireman Dan Dwyer on it, responds to the call. The site is about thirty-five miles north of Roswell. Again, I could not corroborate Wilcox with this call, but there is sworn testimony putting the fire department, as well as Dan Dwyer, at the crash scene…

(Frankie Rowe, age 12 in 1947, is the daughter of Roswell fireman, Dan Dwyer, who allegedly was at the main saucer crash site with other members of the fire department and members of the Roswell police department. The foil she saw was allegedly later shown at the Roswell fire station to some of the firemen and herself by a state trooper.)

(R&S2, Paperback edition, affidavit 11/22/93): "In early July 1947, I was in the fire house waiting for my father to take me home. A State Trooper arrived and displayed a piece of metallic debris that he said he'd picked up on the crash site. It was a dull gray and about the thickness of aluminum foil. When wadded into a ball, it would unfold itself. The fire fighters were unable to cut or burn it."

(Pflock) [As she waited, a state police officer came in and said he wanted to show the firemen something.] "He took his hand out of his pocket and he dropped what he had in his fist on the table. He said it was something he picked up out at the crash site. It looked like quicksilver when it was on the table, but you could wad it up. [It was] a little larger than . . . [his] hand. It had jagged edges" [and it was a dull grayish-silver color.] "You couldn't feel it in your hand. It was so thin that it felt like holding a hair . . . It wasn't anything you'd ever seen before. It flowed like quicksilver when you laid it on the table. [The firemen and the trooper] tried to tear it, cut it and burn it. It wadded up into nothing. The state cop said he'd gotten away with just this one small piece, and he said he didn't know how long he'd be able to keep it, if the military found out."

roswellproof.homestead.com...

The Roswell Fire Department, escorted by members of the Roswell Police Department, makes a run along Pine Lodge Road northwest of Roswell. These are among the first civilians to stumble across the impact site.

In later interviews Dan Dwyer is quoted as saying that he saw "the first pink lines of sunlight over the horizon" indicating being there at least pre-dawn of the morning of July 5th. He also notices an extremely strong glow showing up, not from a fire, but similar to how lights illuminate the dark sky of a nighttime high school football game, over the crest of the hills away from the sunrise. After sunup Dwyer is able to sneak away undetected from the loosely watched or guarded fire crew and police officers, possibly by a planned or accidental diversion created by his buddies sharing hot coffee from thermos bottles with members of the military. He climbs up through the rocks, trees and underbrush to a point where he is able to see a sizable number of uniformed military personnel, a series of now turned off floodlights, and various pieces of equipment such as jeeps, SRC-399 radio rigs and other communication vans. He sees as well the center of all the activity and what he describes later as a "strange craft" being lifted into the air by a crane and set on a flat bed truck. He continues to watch as it is secured with chains and cables then covered by a tarp. Because none of the fire fighters or police officers chose to join him and they remain basically under guard, no one of the group other than Dwyer is an actual eyewitness to the event.

www.angelfire.com...

Many timelines show the military knowing the approximate location of the saucer crash, moving in with a carefully selected team for the recovery of the craft. Presumably, this was triggered by the dispatch of police and fire, or more likely The soldiers find civilians on the site already. They escort them off while others secure the area. Bodies are found on the site. The site is cleaned and secured in six hours.

The military recovery team, working most of the night under high powered floodlights since sometime before 2:00 AM are just past the early stages of their investigation and completion of the set up of equipment around sunrise. Just as the sun is coming up, but before Dwyer's unknown and totally undetected observation of a much more advanced stage of recovery an hour or two later, civilians suddenly show up on the scene. The soldiers are told by the team to escort them out of the area while other soldiers are ordered to search and secure a much wider perimeter and not just the dirt roads leading into the site. The civilians mentioned are more than likely Holden and his students who had hiked in over the hills, unexpectedly catching the military off guard. The Roswell fire and police department personnel --- which technically might not be viewed as civilians by the public, but considered as such by the military --- are continued to be held or stopped by MPs some distance away along the dirt road leading up to the crash site. Dwyer is able to slip back down the hill through the widening military sweep and rejoins his group undetected. Because Holden and his students arrived right on top of the actual crash scene much earlier than Dwyer's observation of the scene from a distance, neither Dwyer nor Holden or any member of either group is aware of the others presence.

www.angelfire.com...

There is other support for the military cordon in place as well…again we’ll cite the testimony of William Woody (now in it’s entirety)

AFFIDAVIT of William M. Woody

(1) My name is William M. Woody
(2) My address is: XXXXXXXXXX

(3) I am employed as: __________________________________. ( ) I am retired
(4) In 1947, I was 12 years old [corrected to 14 years old] and living with my family on our farm, located 3 miles south of Roswell, New Mexico, and east of what was then Roswell Army Air Field. I still live on that farm.

(5) One hot night during the summer of 1947, probably in early July, my father and I were outside on the farm. It was well after sundown and quite dark. Suddenly, the sky lit up. When we looked up to see where the light was coming from, we saw a large, very bright object in the southwestern sky, moving rapidly northward.

(6) The object had the bright white intensity of a blow torch, and had a long, flame-like tail, with colors like a blow-torch flame fading down into a pale red. Most of the tail was this pale red color. The tail was very long, equal to about 10 diameters of a full moon.

(7) We watched the object travel all the way across the sky until it disappeared below the northern horizon. It was moving fast, but not as fast as a meteor, and we had it in view for what seemed like 20 to 30 seconds. Its brightness and colors did not change during the whole time, and it definitely went out of sight below the horizon, rather than winking out like a meteor does. My father thought it was a big meteorite and was convinced it had fallen to earth about 40 miles north of Roswell, probably just southwest of the intersection of U.S. Highway 285 and the Corona road (State Highway 247). [NOTE: Compare this to the map showing the crash sites, looking at Site 2]

(8) My father knew the territory, all its roads, and many of the people very well, so two or three days later (definitely not the next day), he decided to look for the object. He took me with him in our old flatbed truck. We headed north through Roswell on U.S. 285. About 19 miles north of town, where the highway crosses the Macho Draw, we saw at least one uniformed soldier stationed beside the road. As we drove along, we saw more sentries and Army vehicles. They were stationed at all places -- ranch roads, crossroads, etc.--where there was access to leave the highway and drive east or west, and they were armed, some with rifles, others with sidearms. I do not remember seeing any military activity on the ranchland beyond the highway right of way.

(9) We stopped at one sentry post, and my father asked a soldier what was going on. The soldier, who's attitude was very nice, just said his orders were not to let anyone leave 285 and go into the countryside.

(10) As we drove north, we saw that the Corona road (State 247), which runs west from Highway 285, was blocked by soldiers. We went on as far as Ramon, about nine miles north of the 247 intersection. There were sentries there, too. At Ramon we turned around and head south and home.

(11) I remember my father saying he thought the Army was looking for something it had tracked on its way down. He may have gotten this from the soldier he spoke with during our drive up 285, but I am not sure.

(12) I also recall that two neighbors, both now dead, stopped by and told my father they had seen the same object we had seen. One said others in his family had seen it too. There were many rumors about flying saucers that summer, and I recall the weather balloon story, explaining away the report of a flying saucer crash near Corona. This seemed reasonable to us at the time.

(13) I have not been paid or given or promised anything of value to make this statement, which is the truth to the best of my recollection.

Signed: William M. Woody
9-28-93

Signature witnessed by:
Tracy L. Callaway
9.28.93

Some timelines (such as NICAP’s) report an attempted teletype intercepted by the FBI by a local station. My research (and others) indicates this actually happened after the weekend (so we’ll touch on this when we get there).

Sergeant Melvin Brown sees an alien while riding in the back of one of the Army trucks containing the bodies. Many skeptics love to dwell on him being a cook, but although Brown's official military occupation was a cook and baker, he was also a decorated WWII veteran, including a bronze star, his service papers further listing him as an expert marksman.

He also said that one day all available men were grabbed and that they had to stand guard where a crashed disc had come down. Everything was being loaded onto trucks, and he couldn't understand why some of the trucks had ice or something in them. He did not understand what they wanted to keep cold. Him and another guy had to ride in the back of one of the trucks, and although they were told that they could get into a lot of trouble if they took in too much of what was happening, they had a quick look under the covering and saw two dead bodies, alien bodies. (testimony of his daughter Beverly) - Sergeant Melvin Brown was a cook at Roswell AAF in 1947. One day, he was called out to help guard material retrieved from the Foster Ranch. His daughter Beverly was interviewed by Stanton Friedman in 1989

www.webfellows.com...


He said they were smaller han a normal man--about four feet--and had much larger heads than us, with slanted eyes, and that the bodies looked yellowish, a bit Asian-looking. [Friedman and Berliner, Crash at Corona, 1992]
roswellproof.homestead.com...

There are other witnesses attesting to seeing tarped deuce and a half Army trucks traveling the highway at high speed, as well as other witnesses to the military cordon (such as C. Bertram Schultz, a respected vertebra paleontologist), but I think we’ve seen enough to move on.
The bodies arrive at the base and are taken to the hospital for examination. Dr. Jesse Johnson pronounces them dead. Two doctors who are not assigned to the base but who have arrived on one of the special flights begin the preliminary autopsy.

The testimony of Glenn Dennis, a mortician working for the Ballard Funeral Home in Roswell…is extremely compelling. Although Dennis' credibility has come under heavy attack by skeptics, there is some excellent corroboration for parts of his story and he remains a highly credible witness. Former Roswell police chief L.M. Hall remembered Dennis telling him about the calls from the base for child-size caskets only a few days after the newspaper stories of the crashed flying saucer. Thus it seems this part of Dennis' story is not of recent origin but dates back to the original event itself. Hall’s affidavit: roswellproof.homestead.com...
David Wagnon, who was a young medical technician at the base hospital, remembered the young, attractive nurse fitting Dennis' description. Wagnon’s affidavit: roswellproof.homestead.com...
Second-hand descriptions of the aliens from family members also seem to match the general description provided by Dennis. Henderson's wife recalled being told the beings were small with disproportionately large heads. She also recalled being told that the beings were packed in dry ice, a preservation technique Dennis said he recommended to prevent alteration of the chemical composition of the bodies. Henderson's daughter recalled being told that the aliens were "small and pale, with slanted eyes and large heads." Henderson affidavits: roswellproof.homestead.com...

Glenn’s affidavit is below, as it also serves our purposes of illustrating the timeline well.

AFFIDAVIT OF GLENN DENNIS


(1) My name is Glenn Dennis

(2) My address is: XXXXXXXXXX

(3) I am ( ) employed as: __________________________________ ( ) retured,

(4) In July 1947, I was a mortician, working for the Ballard Funeral Home in Roswell, which had a contract to provide mortuary services for the Roswell Army Air Field. One afternoon, [EDIT: from the research, it appears this was on July 5th. Though I’ve seen later dates claimed, this is what is corroborated by other testimony, as well as the events themselves] around 1:15 or 1:30, I received a call from the base mortuary officer who asked what was the smallest size hermetically sealed casket that we had in stock. He said, "We need to know this in case something comes up in the future." He asked how long it would take to get one, and I assured him I could get one for him the following day. He said he would call back if they needed one.

(5) About 45 minutes to an hour later, he called back and asked me to describe the preparation for bodies that had been lying out on the desert for a period of time. Before I could answer, he said he specifically wanted to know what effect the preparation procedures would have on the body's chemical compounds, blood and tissues. I explained that our chemicals were mainly strong solutions of formaldehyde and water, and that the procedure would probably alter the body's chemical composition. I offered to come out to the base to assist with any problem he might have, but he reiterated that the information was for future use. I suggested that if he had such a situation that I would try to freeze the body in dry ice for storage and transportation.

(6) Approximately a hour or an hour and 15 minutes later, I got a call to transport a serviceman who had a laceration on his head and perhaps a fractured nose. I gave him first aid and drove him out to the base. I got there around 5:00 PM.

(7) Although I was a civilian, I usually had free access on the base because they knew me. I drove the ambulance around to the back of the base infirmary and parked it next to another ambulance. The door was open and inside I saw some wreckage. There were several pieces which looked like the bottom of a canoe, about three feet in length. It resembled stainless steel with a purple hue, as if it had been exposed to high temperature. There was some stange-looking writing on the material resembling Egyptian hieroglyphics. Also there were two MPs present.

(8) I checked the airman in and went to the staff lounge to have a Coke. I intended to look for a nurse, a 2nd Lieutenant, who had been commissioned about three months earlier right out of college. She was 23 years of age at the time (I was 22). I saw her coming out of one of the examining rooms with a cloth over her mouth. She said, "My gosh, get out of here or you're going to be in a lot of trouble." She went into another door where a Captain stood. He asked me who I was and what I was doing here. I told him, and he instructed me to stay there. I said, "It looks like you've got a crash; would you like me to get ready?" He told me to stay right there. Then two MPs came up and began to escort me out of the infirmary. They said they had orders to follow me out to the funeral home.

(9) We got about 10 or 15 feet when I heard a voice say, "We're not through with that SOB. Bring him back." There was another Captain, a redhead with the meanest-looking eyes I had ever seen, who said, "You did not see anything, there was no crash here, and if you say anything you could get into a lot of trouble." I said, "Hey look mister, I'm a civilian and you can't do a damn thing to me." He said, "Yes we can; somebody will be picking your bones out of the sand." There was a black Sergeant with a pad in his hand who said, "He would make good dog food for our dogs." The Captain said, "Get the SOB out." The MPs followed me back to the funeral home.

(10) The next day [Sunday, July 6th], I tried to call the nurse to see what was going on. About 11:00 AM, she called the funeral home and said, "I need to talk to you." We agreed to meet at the officers club. She was very upset. She said, "Before I talk to you, you have to give me a sacred oath that you will never mention my name, because I could get into a lot of trouble." I agreed. [Later said to be identified as Naomi Self, but this seems impossible to verify]

(11) She said she had gone to get supplies in a room where two doctors were performing a preliminary autopsy. The doctors said they needed her to take notes during the procedure. She said she had never smelled anything so horrible in her life, and the sight was the most gruesome she had ever seen. She said, "This was something no one has ever seen." As she spoke, I was concerned that she might go into shock.

(12) She drew me a diagram of the bodies, including an arm with a hand that had only four fingers; the doctors noted that on the end of the fingers were little pads resembling suction cups. She said the head was disproportionately large for the body; the eyes were deeply set; the skulls were flexible; the nose was concave with only two orifices; the mouth was a fine slit, and the doctors said there was heavy cartilage instead of teeth. The ears were only small orifices with flaps. They had no hair, and the skin was black--perhaps due to exposure in the sun. She gave me the drawings.

[EDIT: Drawing included with Dennis' affidavit by artist Walter Henn, based on Dennis' recollections of drawings originally made by the alleged Roswell nurse.]


(13) There were three bodies; two were very mangled and dismembered, as if destroyed by predators; one was fairly intact. They were three-and-a-half to four feet tall. She told me the doctors said: "This isn't anything we've ever see before; there's nothing in the medical textbooks like this." She said she and the doctors became ill. They had to turn off the air conditioning and were afraid the smell would go through the hospital. They had to move the operation to an airplane hangar.

(14) I drove her back to the officers' barracks. The next day [Monday, July 7th] I called the hospital to see how she was, and they said she wasn't available. I tried to get her for several days, and finally got one of the nurses who said the Lieutenant had been transferred out with some other personnel. About 10 days to two weeks later, I got a letter from her with an APO number. She indicated we could discuss the incident by letter in the future. I wrote back to her and about two weeks later the letter came back marked "Return to Sender--DECEASED." Later, one of the nurses at the base said the rumor was that she and five other nurses had been on a training mission and had been killed in a plane crash.

(15) Sheriff George Wilcox and my father were very close friends. The Sheriff went to my folks' house the morning after the events at the base and said to my father, "I don't know what kind of trouble Glenn's in, but you tell your son that he doesn't know anything and hasn't seen anything at the base." He added, "They want you and your wife's name, and they want your and your children's addresses." My father immediately drove to the funeral home and asked me what kind of trouble I was in. He related the conversation with Sheriff Wilcox, and so I told him about the events of the previous day. He is the only person to whom I have told this story until recently.

(16) I had filed away the sketches the nurse gave me that day. Recently, at the request of a researcher, I tried to locate my personal files at the funeral home, but they had all been destroyed.

(17) I have not been paid or given anything of value to make this statement, which is the truth to the best of my recollection.

Signed: Glenn Dennis
Date: 8-7-91

Signature witnessed by:
Walter G. Haut [NOTE : Yes, the press officer for the RAAF]

The bodies are sealed into a long crate, which is taken to a hangar. It is left there overnight with spotlights playing on it while MPs stand guard around it. They never approach it.

Melvin Brown, along with other soldiers, is ordered to stand guard outside the hanger. Brown's commanding officer approaches and says, "Come on, Brownie, let's have a look inside." But there is nothing to see because everything has been packed and crated, ready for shipment.

Sometimes, but not too often, he used to say that he saw a man from outer space. That used to make us all giggle like mad. He said he had to stand guard duty outside a hangar where a crashed flying saucer was stored, and that his commanding officer said, "Come on, Brownie, let's have a look inside." But they didn't see anything because it had all been packed up and [was] ready to be flown out to Texas.

Melvin’s daughter Beverly’s testimony (see previous link for source)

Some timelines state that Military bases along the West Coast had fighters on standby in case the flying disks were seen and that a few bases in Oregon and Washington had planes equipped with gun cameras on airborne alert. This is correct to a degree, but largely stemming from Kenneth Arnold’s sighting days earlier, not necessarily because of the crash.

At this point, the military likely believes it has contained the incident. This would explain the high level response that comes from the RAAF (i.e. sending it’s senior intelligence officer) upon Brazel’s later find and bringing the debris into town, as the RAAF already knows what the debris is in regards to.

On to the first site, the Foster Ranch…

Following the rain the night before, Brazel inspects the pastures surrounding the ranch house. Riding with him is the young son of the Proctors, William D. Proctor. During the inspection, Brazel discovers a large debris field. Scattered on the slopes and into the sinkhole and depressions are metal, plastic-like beams, pieces of lightweight material and foil-like material. The debris is thick enough that the sheep refuse to cross the field and are driven around it to water more than a mile away.

Brazel, taking a few scraps of the material, heads to the home of his closest neighbors, Floyd and Loretta Proctor. He shows them "a little sliver" of material that he can neither burn nor cut. The Proctors suggest he take it into town to show the sheriff.

Later that evening, Brazel removes the large, circular piece of the debris from the range. Brazel either loads it into the back of his truck or drags it along behind. He stores it in a livestock shed about three miles nqrth of the crash site.

(The above is paraphrased from the Crash at Corona by Friedmann, and as found on NICAP’s timeline (link is in Part I of this series), and also comes from numerous testimony over the years by those involved. Much of which has been covered in Part II, but below is an excerpt from Crash at Corona)

William "Mac" Brazel (rhymes with
"frazzle") and his 7-year-old neighbor Dee Proctor found the
remains of the crashed flying saucer. Brazel was foreman of
the Foster Ranch. The pieces were spread out over a large
area, perhaps more than half a mile long. When Brazel drove
Dee back home, he showed a piece of the wreckage to Dee's
parents, Floyd and Loretta Proctor. They all agreed the
piece was unlike anything they had ever seen.

The next day, we get into Mac Brazel taking some of the debris into Roswell, and the involvement between him and the military begins. Keep in mind, this is still a couple days before the famous newspaper headline breaks. At this point, the military has no knowledge of the secondary debris field at the Foster Ranch, nor does Brazel have any idea about the second site or the bodies found.

[TO BE CONTINUED]

Part III, Section C can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...


[edit on 26-5-2005 by Gazrok]

Gaz, you have contributed more on Roswell than S.Friedman did with all his replies to questions asked combined. I'd like to thank you for clearing up a few things I have always wondered about. Specifically, the distance between the two crashes. I have seen so many maps and all are different, but you have put so much effort into this, I have no problem accepting your say in this.

Fantastic Job as always and keep up the good work Cant wat for part C

GREAT WORK!!!

so i am thinking that you believe its a cover-up

so i am thinking that you believe its a cover-up

Hehe...not a question of belief...

There's basically two sides to the story...

1. The Air Force claim that the debris is Project Mogul, and that accounts of bodies are due to Project High Dive (years later).

2. The claims (and originally released story) that the US Army Air Force had recovered the debris of a flying saucer.

So, you simply look at the evidence for each, and decide which side is more plausible. So far, the Air Force story seems to be a complete lie. The two projects used to explain it were years apart. No Mogul balloon was in the area in question on the dates in question. Even the military's own officers, from Seargents, Majors, even Generals, claim a coverup! So we're then left with the alternative...

yes...

i saw a GREAT show about it on the history channel once...

well i believe in aliens and UFOs so...

Addendum here: Dennis' testimony is later in the timeline (wrong dates inserted), it'll be corrected on the next section....one of the problems inherent with comparing different sources, and making sure the dates given fit the events described by others..... I don't know about you, but I'd have a hard time figuring out what day something was a few years back, let alone decades... So we have to compare it with the whole to be sure....

[edit on 24-2-2005 by Gazrok]

Still working on Part III (Section C)...probably sometime next week....

Question, Gazrok.

How come there no information or focus on the possible Crash Site on the Plains of St Augustine? Kaufmanns crash site I had always questioned because Kaufmann himself was questionable. I myself have more or less helf Stan Friedman's scenario as my favored: the Kevin Randle version is a bit inconsistant, especially because he relies so much on Frank Kaufmann.

I find whats really curious about the arroyo in St Augustine crash, is now the whole area is covered by an enourmous VLA for listening to signals from outer space....wonder they they did it out of hidden symbolism?

Not that Im nitpicking by any means, youre doing a phenomenal job on this Roswell thread, including all testimony with comments, no matter what the controversy. I can also see youre not finished with it, will the possible plaisn of St Augustine crash be included in the third thread?

The reason Im curious, is because its part of my own personal Roswell theory. My theory is that one saucer crashed. For whatever reason, maybe an onboard malfunction or something else, and the craft started going down. Its skidded, dragged, and shredded at the Foster ranch, gouging out the earth and scattering pieces of itself in a straight line as the pilots desperatly tried to regain control and get it back in the air. perhaps part of the craft was ripped off or fell off as the saucer made its final attempt to get skybound and stay there: it managed to get off the ground of the Foster ranch, gained enough altitude it managed to cross the mountain range, only to finally fail completely and crash to its final resting spot on the plains of St Augustine. This is the one I believe the Almagordo base discovered and seized days before the Offical release down in Roswell. If Im not mistaked, this was also the second crash site reported by General Arthur Exon.

If I am incorrect, feel free to correct me, oh grand master Gaz. Youre doing a terrific job here, Im waiting on thread three!

Hey Gazork,

great read. Have you seen this discussion on the following link.


www.ufounderground.net...

To my knowledge their book "Iceman Down" has not come out yet. I e-mailed Kenny and he said he has not heard any new news from them.

What do you guys think?

How come there no information or focus on the possible Crash Site on the Plains of St Augustine? Kaufmanns crash site I had always questioned because Kaufmann himself was questionable. I myself have more or less helf Stan Friedman's scenario as my favored: the Kevin Randle version is a bit inconsistant, especially because he relies so much on Frank Kaufmann.

I agree, and you'll see that I too dismiss Kaufmann's testimony. However there are a few others, that all coincide with the second site being in that general vicinity (according to the military roadblocks that went up). I felt it more important to establish that there were two crash sites. This seems to be well supported. The exact location of the second site varies though, so I didn't want to dwell on it...just establish that there was a second site. I too am more inclined to go with one craft and skidding, then crashing.

I would just love to know of all these crash/retrival events, especially Roswell, were nothing but minscule, everyday devices frashing to Earth, why is the military not as forthcoming with official documentation? Methinks they have something they seek to hide from the general public.

Fair enough Gaz, and I can now see what you are doing. This is good, as it allows people to see both tales of the second crash site, make up their minds where it was, then decide themselves.

Youre doing a greta job, again. Ive bookmarked these threas (something I seldom do for ATS threads unless they are REALLY good and ground breaking) and plan to share them.

You should really compile this into a typed report then send it off the the airforce, if nothing else, to show them how itterly ridiculous and insulting to intelligence their solution was, and remind them that a huge part of the public still thinks they are lying through their teeth. You have done an excellent job here, showing this subject in a rational light instead of a lunatic fringe one.

You should really compile this into a typed report then send it off the the airforce, if nothing else, to show them how itterly ridiculous and insulting to intelligence their solution was, and remind them that a huge part of the public still thinks they are lying through their teeth. You have done an excellent job here, showing this subject in a rational light instead of a lunatic fringe one.

An interesting idea... Then I could probably do a pretty good expose' on Men in Black, as I'd likely get a visit, hehe....

Originally posted by Gazrok
get a visit, hehe....

Man, that stuff isn't funny!
MiB is a slang term for feds anyways, ever notice the suit colors tend to be uniform. Not that the fedgov don't have field agents just for cover ups and EBE related matters, but they just might show up...

If you get a visit, don't run (cooperation charms them just as well), where there is two there is four.

Q: Dennis didn't keep the original letter from the nurse did he? Or the RTS - Deceased?

He's not that credible to me. Compelling as hell. But not credible.

Not sure where I stand on the "bodies."

I doubt I could find a letter from a year ago, let alone 50, but then again, this would be a pretty important thing to hold on to... To answer the question, I'm honestly not sure on this one. From others in the town through interviews, Dennis was repeatedly held in high esteem and regarded as trustworthy. (something I'd be wanting in my local mortician too I might add, hehe...) And he did sign a sworn affidavit to the effect. It's obvious he never got rich off Roswell, so one could certainly ask why such an individual would commit perjury for no gain...

Granted, there are those who also gave sworn testimony and were found out to be liars. However this is in large part due to their efforts to truly capitalize on Roswell, and so they then had to make their stories even more incredible in order to sell, and that's when it all fell apart.

However those witnesses who have maintained their stories, are regarded as trustworthy by others, and who have sworn to their testimony, and their testimony corraborates with other such testimony, well...... until proven otherwise, there doesn't seem to be a reason to not believe them, especially when they haven't looked to profit greatly from such testimony.

Dennis is certainly a key witness in regards to the bodies...but there are other factors pointing to the bodies as well.

Perhaps the most compelling factor pointing to bodies is from the government themselves. The 1994 report by the USAF almost centered completely around dismissing the reports of bodies! Why even go there if it was a Mogul balloon, (as they contended before)? This NEED for them to quiet the talk of bodies is really very telling in and of itself.

There is also other sworn testimony by military personnel such as a Sergeant and a Colonel (if I haven't mentioned them yet, it'll be soon, likely in the next part C.) attesting to the bodies.

Just wanted to state that Part C may not be until mid next week or so, as my wife is going in for surgery Friday, and I'll likely be there with her for a few days (as long as she's in the hospital). Then she's got a couple weeks of recovery afterwards...so obviously, not the foremost thing on my mind...

Continued here...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Truthforall
Hey Gazork,

great read. Have you seen this discussion on the following link.


www.ufounderground.net...

To my knowledge their book "Iceman Down" has not come out yet. I e-mailed Kenny and he said he has not heard any new news from them.

What do you guys think?

Just curious if anyone else has more info on the authors of this as-yet unpublished book. I read the interview on the link referenced in the quote and found it VERY interesting...eager for more. Also curious as to Gazrok's take on it...

Broken boulder that marks the Ragsdale Crash Site taken in 1996

And that's one of the big problems with this. Ragsdale is one of the LEAST credible witnesses of the whole Roswell saga. These guys expect us to believe that they came upon this site, clearly marked on maps, and visited by many constantly, (even running into a German tourist while THEY were there!), and yet they found physical debris? That's a pretty big fish story to swallow... Still, I've heard of the book and was anxiously awaiting it (albeit a little less anxiously now, hehe...), and I'll still get it, just to see what they find.