Drop the knife!

a reply to: LightSpeedDriver

Ah yes, the roll. Where did I say F all the LEOs?

Where did I say I was trying to excuse his actions? Yet you implied I did, 2 lane road.

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: LightSpeedDriver
Police "accidentally" shoot a hostage. I have no words to describe some of the members of US law enforcement staff.

Don't shoot the messenger!

www.dailymail.co.uk...

ETA Video at link.

What exactly would you have done differently had you been there with a gun, or without?

I wouldn't have shot the hostage.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

If they shot him sooner, before he grabbed the lady...

a reply to: Vasa Croe


Everyone would just bitch then that the cops didn't shoot the guy.

I also want to point out, why didn't the lady try to roll away from the scene? Too scared? Knew the fellow? Why couldn't a LEO surprise spartan kick the guy from the back-away from the lady? Too many questions, two dead bodies.

originally posted by: CharlesT

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: CharlesT
I don't think the cops had much choice at that point but damn, it just seems the first thing cops do upon arriving at any scene is to instantly escalate the situation with threatening actions and demands from the start. How about approaching a suspect and saying something like, hey man, whats the problem?

Cops aren't psychologists and the guy wasn't there to spread butter on his toast.

He had already cut the lady.

Sucks this is the way it went down....

No he had not even confronted the lady when the cops showed up and they immediately starting shouting demands and shooting beanbags upon arrival.. They did have time to try to deescalate the situation before the tragic incident but they didn't even try. I say it is lack of proper training because they are not trained to deescalate.

You are wrong but not for the reason you think. They are trained perfectly, insomuch as the police unions teach them that its less risk to their job (and to the department) to kill folks rather than not (mainly for financial and legal reasons). They are very specifically trained to escalate threats that force these situations to reinforce the desired aforementioned outcome.

originally posted by: LightSpeedDriver

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: LightSpeedDriver
Police "accidentally" shoot a hostage. I have no words to describe some of the members of US law enforcement staff.

Don't shoot the messenger!

www.dailymail.co.uk...

ETA Video at link.

What exactly would you have done differently had you been there with a gun, or without?

I wouldn't have shot the hostage.

keanu reeves shot the hostage

originally posted by: SirKonstantin
I also want to point out, why didn't the lady try to roll away from the scene? Too scared? Knew the fellow? Why couldn't a LEO surprise spartan kick the guy from the back-away from the lady? Too many questions, two dead bodies.

Take a 2nd watch of the video. The lady was using a walker and I believe I saw an oxygen tank. I suspect the woman was either old or frail in some way, maybe both.

a reply to: SirKonstantin

The lady appears to be holding on to a walker (I think that's the correct English name for a walking/support aid) and I doubt she even knew what was happening or had a chance to move away from the guy.

ETA Post above mine ^^^^

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: LightSpeedDriver
Police "accidentally" shoot a hostage. I have no words to describe some of the members of US law enforcement staff.

Don't shoot the messenger!

www.dailymail.co.uk...

ETA Video at link.

He had already cut into the hostages neck and wanted to cut her head off according to the stories I read.

At that point there isn't much you can do except try to save her. The guy was definitely going to kill her.

What exactly would you have done differently had you been there with a gun, or without?

Personally, I would have closed the distance with the perp long before he could slowly walk 20ft or so up to the woman.

Bringing a gun against the knife should have the advantage. I would have put him down before he could endanger another.

The cops seriously F'ed up letting the guy wander close enough to attack that woman.

originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: CharlesT

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: CharlesT
I don't think the cops had much choice at that point but damn, it just seems the first thing cops do upon arriving at any scene is to instantly escalate the situation with threatening actions and demands from the start. How about approaching a suspect and saying something like, hey man, whats the problem?

Cops aren't psychologists and the guy wasn't there to spread butter on his toast.

He had already cut the lady.

Sucks this is the way it went down....

No he had not even confronted the lady when the cops showed up and they immediately starting shouting demands and shooting beanbags upon arrival.. They did have time to try to deescalate the situation before the tragic incident but they didn't even try. I say it is lack of proper training because they are not trained to deescalate.

You are wrong but not for the reason you think. They are trained perfectly, insomuch as the police unions teach them that its less risk to their job (and to the department) to kill folks rather than not (mainly for financial and legal reasons). They are very specifically trained to escalate threats that force these situations to reinforce the desired aforementioned outcome.

I can't debate that opinion because I just do not know but it's obvious they never try to deescalate. Maybe it's there israily based law enforcement training.

Edit: Maybe, as I said previously it's Adrenalin and that's it.

originally posted by: CharlesT

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: CharlesT
I don't think the cops had much choice at that point but damn, it just seems the first thing cops do upon arriving at any scene is to instantly escalate the situation with threatening actions and demands from the start. How about approaching a suspect and saying something like, hey man, whats the problem?

Cops aren't psychologists and the guy wasn't there to spread butter on his toast.

He had already cut the lady.

Sucks this is the way it went down....

No he had not even confronted the lady when the cops showed up and they immediately starting shouting demands and shooting beanbags upon arrival.. They did have time to try to deescalate the situation before the tragic incident but they didn't even try. I say it is lack of proper training because they are not trained to deescalate.

He had already started to cut her neck...its in the story from the OP. You can see the blood in the picture.

originally posted by: CharlesT

originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: CharlesT

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: CharlesT
I don't think the cops had much choice at that point but damn, it just seems the first thing cops do upon arriving at any scene is to instantly escalate the situation with threatening actions and demands from the start. How about approaching a suspect and saying something like, hey man, whats the problem?

Cops aren't psychologists and the guy wasn't there to spread butter on his toast.

He had already cut the lady.

Sucks this is the way it went down....

No he had not even confronted the lady when the cops showed up and they immediately starting shouting demands and shooting beanbags upon arrival.. They did have time to try to deescalate the situation before the tragic incident but they didn't even try. I say it is lack of proper training because they are not trained to deescalate.

You are wrong but not for the reason you think. They are trained perfectly, insomuch as the police unions teach them that its less risk to their job (and to the department) to kill folks rather than not (mainly for financial and legal reasons). They are very specifically trained to escalate threats that force these situations to reinforce the desired aforementioned outcome.

I can't debate that opinion because I just do not know but it's obvious they never try to deescalate. Maybe it's there israily based law enforcement training.

TBH I'm not that educated on police training myself, but my friend who is in the academy right now talks all the time about force escalation and how its constantly drilled into their heads to always present a superior force to what you are presented by the subject. Hard to tell from his anecdotes what proportion that message is being presented counter to 'deescalation' actions, but for what its worth he's never mentioned deescalation once.

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: CharlesT

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: CharlesT
I don't think the cops had much choice at that point but damn, it just seems the first thing cops do upon arriving at any scene is to instantly escalate the situation with threatening actions and demands from the start. How about approaching a suspect and saying something like, hey man, whats the problem?

Cops aren't psychologists and the guy wasn't there to spread butter on his toast.

He had already cut the lady.

Sucks this is the way it went down....

No he had not even confronted the lady when the cops showed up and they immediately starting shouting demands and shooting beanbags upon arrival.. They did have time to try to deescalate the situation before the tragic incident but they didn't even try. I say it is lack of proper training because they are not trained to deescalate.

He had already started to cut her neck...its in the story from the OP. You can see the blood in the picture.

Watch the video. He was 20 feet from the woman when the cops arrived and they shot numerous beanbags at him before he restrained the woman. He did attack his girlfriend prior to but she had already gotten away before the cops arrived. I've said my piece here. I'll not continue the debate more.

originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: CharlesT

originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: CharlesT

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: CharlesT
I don't think the cops had much choice at that point but damn, it just seems the first thing cops do upon arriving at any scene is to instantly escalate the situation with threatening actions and demands from the start. How about approaching a suspect and saying something like, hey man, whats the problem?

Cops aren't psychologists and the guy wasn't there to spread butter on his toast.

He had already cut the lady.

Sucks this is the way it went down....

No he had not even confronted the lady when the cops showed up and they immediately starting shouting demands and shooting beanbags upon arrival.. They did have time to try to deescalate the situation before the tragic incident but they didn't even try. I say it is lack of proper training because they are not trained to deescalate.

You are wrong but not for the reason you think. They are trained perfectly, insomuch as the police unions teach them that its less risk to their job (and to the department) to kill folks rather than not (mainly for financial and legal reasons). They are very specifically trained to escalate threats that force these situations to reinforce the desired aforementioned outcome.

I can't debate that opinion because I just do not know but it's obvious they never try to deescalate. Maybe it's there israily based law enforcement training.

TBH I'm not that educated on police training myself, but my friend who is in the academy right now talks all the time about force escalation and how its constantly drilled into their heads to always present a superior force to what you are presented by the subject. Hard to tell from his anecdotes what proportion that message is being presented counter to 'deescalation' actions, but for what its worth he's never mentioned deescalation once.

I'll take your word for it as I really do not know.

Edit: Do your friend a favor and try to talk him/her out of becoming a cop.

a reply to: Vasa Croe

Witnesses told police that Perez moved the knife in a 'sawing motion against her throat and cut her throat,' Cmdr. Alan Hamilton said.

So the Cmdr says, so it must be true? In the few seconds that transpired I can not see any evidence of a "sawing motion". Witnesses said, case closed, nothing to see here folks!

ETA The article states that he had previously stabbed (not fatally) his girlfriend. Perhaps the blood was that of his girlfriend and not the woman with the walker.

a reply to: CharlesT

God I wish I could, he's a total straight edge all American good boy, thinks the boys in blue are avenging archangels kinda stuff...

Problem is, he's super moral, non-aggressive, nice, unassuming and polite, literally no aggressive tendencies. I fear they're going to drum him out when he doesn't acquiesce to fudging paperwork or planting drugs on a suspect....

originally posted by: LightSpeedDriver
a reply to: DerBeobachter

I don't know how German police respond to similar situations but I do know the Dutch police always aim for the leg if a person is armed. Dutch police never miss.

Oh, sweet, sweet Dutchman, you're going to have to back that up with some hard facts, because that is a very silly statement to make.

As for the story in your OP, you're ignoring the particular things that happened in the specific incident--officers told him to drop the knife numerous times; that didn't happen, so they tried non-lethal means of subduing the suspect; when that didn't work, the suspect took it upon himself to grab a hostage, put the knife to her throat, and apparently start cutting her neck before officers opened fire. This suspect was also cited as having stabbed another woman already, so the officers knew that he was dangerous and potentially murderous.

What I don't excuse in the officers actions is that the two officers without a good shot on the suspect fired as many times as they did--hell, even that they fired at all. The only officer who should have taken that action was the one directly in front of the suspect with the most amount of his body visible and the least amount of it obscured by the hostage.

But yeah, about that claim of Dutch officers only shooting at legs and never missing--the ball is in your court. I do, however, appreciate that Dutch police training lasts three years versus the far-too-short span of police training in the United States. I don't believe that three years is necessary, but a good year of training wouldn't hurt.

Dudes dead on the ground, knife not even in his hands and these tits are still screaming drop the knife.
Heck it looked like the hostage was dead before the perp was even shot once.

Could of course be wrong, this is just a comment from a keyboard warrior whom has never had to shoot a perp in a hostage situation.

originally posted by: CharlesT
I don't think the cops had much choice at that point but damn, it just seems the first thing cops do upon arriving at any scene is to instantly escalate the situation with threatening actions and demands from the start. How about approaching a suspect and saying something like, hey man, whats the problem?

Edit: It's the Adrenalin. It's flowing before the cops ever get there. They are filled with it when they open the car door.

you are talking about reasoning with someone who is acting extremely unreasonable. Not to say that it shouldn’t be tried, but , You are also assuming that they didn’t try to reason with him. At the point that he has taken a hostage and is threatening to hurt them or kill them, I think you may be well past the point of reasoning with the guy