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Roswell: Debunked.

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posted on Feb, 22 2005 @ 03:55 PM
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Originally posted by jeepin4x4girl
The whole Roswell case is debunked. Here's what happened.

After WW II, the Russians were a primary concern for the United States, (cold war). The US was undergoing a top secret project to send balloons up to monitor Russia's activities. They sent up not "weather balloons," but actual men up into the air in a similar fashion, without an enclosed cabin to protect them from high pressure (the effects of high pressure were not known at this time).


Actually the Luftwaffe operated an aircraft called the JU 86P which had a fully pressurized cabin. The RAF operated Spitfire PRXIX aircraft which were also pressurised and operated by units of the US 8th AF
in post-strike recon. The effects of pressure were well known AND provided for for long before 1947. This is not to say that faults might ot occur though.




we have something called selective perception...a psycholological process in which we are predisposed to want to believe things as we see them.


Then why should some New Mexico farmer be predisposed to see aliens instead of a human corpse. Especially in an age where such things were virtually unheard of.

Don't get me wrong, this is a good theory but it also has holes in it like any theory.
Especially...

If Roswell was a balloon accident then why the continued denials and secrecy?




posted on Feb, 22 2005 @ 04:03 PM
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Then why should some New Mexico farmer be predisposed to see aliens instead of a human corpse. Especially in an age where such things were virtually unheard of.

But he didn't....he found debris
Bug-eyed fly blown fly boy/girl/other was added to the legend at a later date.


[edit on 22-2-2005 by Zero Point]



posted on Feb, 22 2005 @ 05:04 PM
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bryant gumble was on history channel and had the main guy in charge of roswell say himself to the camera straight out, it was real, there were 4 aliens inside and craft was not made here.
he publicly admitted everything!!!!!

so how is that debunked.......lol ,absurd.... this is so old news....
what more could you possibly get ?
what more could you possibly want?

[edit on 22-2-2005 by lizzardsamok]



posted on Feb, 22 2005 @ 06:10 PM
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bryant gumble was on history channel and had the main guy in charge of roswell say himself to the camera straight out, it was real, there were 4 aliens inside and craft was not made here.
he publicly admitted everything!!!!!

righhhhhhhhhttttt....then it must be true then...cuz some fella on history channel said so.....ever thought that you're sposed to swallow the saucer story?
Need a bit more hard evidence than 'some guy' said so.
Some guy said that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction....did you believe that?



posted on Feb, 22 2005 @ 06:25 PM
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Originally posted by ShadowXIX
They claim it was a top secret balloon ''Mogul'' they confused for a "flying disc'' even though Mogul was basically made of tinfoil and balsa wood. Its easy to see how Military personal working on our only atomic bomb squadron could confuse tinfoil for a alien craft.


Oh that made me laugh, hehe, thanks

I agree with what the mod person said, there's to much evidence against the weather baloon explanation

[edit on 22-2-2005 by Deimos]



posted on Feb, 22 2005 @ 06:33 PM
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Forgot to add
Does anyone know how to get ahold of the original negatives of the pictures taken of the "balloon wreckage" (the ones with the supposed readable memo)



posted on Feb, 22 2005 @ 08:55 PM
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Originally posted by Zero Point

bryant gumble was on history channel and had the main guy in charge of roswell say himself to the camera straight out, it was real, there were 4 aliens inside and craft was not made here.
he publicly admitted everything!!!!!

righhhhhhhhhttttt....then it must be true then...cuz some fella on history channel said so.....ever thought that you're sposed to swallow the saucer story?
Need a bit more hard evidence than 'some guy' said so.
Some guy said that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction....did you believe that?


he wasnt some guy as you refer to him as he was IN CHARGE OF WHOLE PROJECT OFFICIALLY! for one.
and for two he came out to say it over 50 years later same time as declasifaction time was, hmmmmmmm
about to die and nothing to lose or gain he told all......hmmmmmm
its not rocket science buddy.



posted on Feb, 22 2005 @ 08:55 PM
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Zero point, you cant believe in the Mogul explanation because the facts dont add up, which leads you to accept the original story. This has been explained to death so I wont beat the dead horse here, but feel free to look it up yourself.

Anyway, from your posts you do sound like someone who is uninformed of the facts. Do yourself a favor and research the Roswell case a bit, then come back here.


You might also want to refer to Stanton Friedman's debunker's four main rules


1.) What the public doesn't know, we certainly won't tell them. The largest official USAF UFO study isn't even mentioned in twelve anti-UFO books, though every one of those books' authors was aware of it.


2.) Don't bother me with the facts, my mind is made up.


3.) If one can't attack the data, attack the people. It is easier.


4.) Do one's research by proclamation rather than investigation. It is much easier, and nobody will know the difference anyway.


Originally posted by Zero Point

righhhhhhhhhttttt....then it must be true then...cuz some fella on history channel said so.....ever thought that you're sposed to swallow the saucer story?
Need a bit more hard evidence than 'some guy' said so.
Some guy said that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction....did you believe that?


I agree with you in that hard evidence is what we need. But only because of the circumstances of the situation--extraterrestrials.

If the Roswell case was treated as any other kind of case--murder, kidnapping, theft, or whatever, there would be enough evidence to convict beyond a reasonable doubt and you could probably hang a man. All the eye witness testimonies, the sworn affidavits, even the military's change of story 3 times! Just read Gazrok's two Roswell threads FFS and try to tell me you dont believe something strange went on. But because the circumstances are considered to be so fantastic, hard evidence is still needed.

Humans are so set in their ways that such a thing as ET's coming here from outside our solar system is so inconceivable that it shakes the foundations of our belief systems and we refuse to accept it.

Personally, I think in order to evolve as a race we have to learn to become more open minded about the fantastic. We have to come to grips with and realize that we dont know everything there is to know and we cant not scientifically research something just because it goes against our installed belief systems.



[edit on 22/2/05 by Meteor_of_War]



posted on Feb, 22 2005 @ 11:19 PM
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Funny,
I can easily talk myself out of believing that Roswell was a downed extra terrestrial object. The simplest being that the magnitude of such an event would make it difficult if not impossible for government or military to keep a lid on it. The information would be spread out and would require many people to be aware of the event, the more people who know, the more leaks there would be. Basically, there would be people coming forward, so why aren't there?

But then maybe they have. Colonel Jesse Marcel, the first to arrive on the scene, and indeed the first to report to the papers that a saucer had been recovered by the us army, had never refuted his testimony. His son continued the legacy by confirming what he saw when Jesse brought home material from the wreckage site. Jesse Marcel has always denied the weather balloon claim.

Why would someone do that? Why would someone create a big story about a crashed weather balloon, if they wrokee for the government. This would certainly be a bad career move for an employee of the US military if these claims were false.

Then again, maybe he simply didn't know any better. If so, it's understandable then that this Colonal in the military would not know what a weather balloon looked like, I guess...

But then there's Mack Brazel, the rancher whose property the apparent saucer crashed on. The Roswell newspaper on July 9 is the only contemporary published record of what Brazel said:

"Harassed Rancher Who Located 'Saucer' Sorry He Told About It"

It was based on an interview conducted in the offices of the Roswell Daily Record on the afternoon of July 8. The description of the debris sounds much like a small part of a Project Mogul balloon array, similar to that from weather balloons, which is the accepted skeptical explanation today for the event.

Though Project Mogul was indeed a top-secret project, the neoprene rubber balloons and paper-backed aluminum foil radar targets used in it were not. In the article, Brazel describes a collection of "tinfoil", "tape," "sticks," and "rubber," which was so limited in size that it could be rolled up in a small bundle.

But then he said the debris took up an area about 200 yards in diameter, vastly greater than the remains a Mogul array would produce.

Apparently unnoticed and certainly unappreciated by reporters at the time were Brazel's final comments. The article concluded by noting that Brazel had "...previously found weather balloons on the ranch on at least two occasions," and he firmly stated, "I am sure what I found was not any weather observation balloon."

Frank Joyce was the radio announcer at the Roswell radio station. He had been "spinning records" and reporting the local news on the afternoon of Sunday July 6.

As was his habit, he called Sheriff Wilcox while a record was playing to inquire about newsworthy items. Wilcox put Brazel on the telephone and Joyce interviewed him off the air. Joyce then suggested to Wilcox that the military be contacted, and Wilcox followed the advice.

When William Moore was later conducting research into the Mack Brazel/Roswell case, he caught up with Roswell radio station KGFL announcer Frank Joyce, and preceeded to interview him regarding Mack Brazel.

According to "Mack Brazel RECONSIDERED", Joyce went into detail for Moore about what Brazel DID NOT tell him he found during that first interview, such as "balloon parts" and "balsa parts." He would not go into any detail regarding what he DID find. Instead, Joyce talked about Brazel's frame of mind during the conversation, characterizing him as "terrified," but without elaboration or explanation.

TAKEN FROM THE ARTICLE:

Joyce described how Brazel came into the radio station a few days after the Sunday phone call to change his story. Upon hearing the new version, Joyce confronted Brazel off the air. "Just a minute!" said Joyce, "You know that this story that you've told me now in no way matches the story you told me on the phone." After a pause, Brazel leaned closer and told Joyce, "Look, son. You keep this to yourself. They told me to come in here and tell you this story or it would go awfully hard on me AND YOU"

Throughout the history of the Roswell legacy, there are flip flopped stories, inconsistent testimonies and dizzying turnarounds.

People can quickly change their story on a dime, showing signs of stress and terror - which goes unexplained. Most likely government intimidation.

There are more and more stries like this. Off topic is the story of Allan Hynek, respected Astronomer and disbeliever in the UFO phenomenon. He was hired by the government to lead Project Blue Book. Later, when the Project was shut down, Hynek was enraged. Allan Hynek became one of the worlds most respected ufologists and believer. The GOVERNMENT CHANGED HIS MIND!!!!

[edit on 22-2-2005 by thegreatimposter]



posted on Feb, 23 2005 @ 07:37 AM
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But he didn't....he found debris
Bug-eyed fly blown fly boy/girl/other was added to the legend at a later date.


An important note...Brazel found debris, not bodies. Brazel, Major Marcel, and many others described the debris to have properties unknown to them. Any of these witnesses, even those who were children at the time, could have EASILY identified balsa wood and tin foil. That isn't what they found. That is the only logical conclusion one can make.

Bodies were found at the OTHER crash site. No intact craft was found at the Brazel site...just debris. I'll go into all of this in a lot more detail with part III of my post series...


There are more and more stries like this. Off topic is the story of Allan Hynek, respected Astronomer and disbeliever in the UFO phenomenon. He was hired by the government to lead Project Blue Book. Later, when the Project was shut down, Hynek was enraged. Allan Hynek became one of the worlds most respected ufologists and believer. The GOVERNMENT CHANGED HIS MIND!!!!


Moreover, Hynek can pinpoint when BlueBook went from "explain" to "debunk"...after the Washington UFO flaps. He also speaks about the cases that bypassed BlueBook and went "elsewhere". I always find it interesting that so many skeptics cite BlueBook's conclusions to support their views, yet ignore the man who led the project for so many years, hehe....


[edit on 23-2-2005 by Gazrok]



posted on Oct, 13 2007 @ 07:49 AM
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During the years following WW II the Government of the United States was confronted with a series of events which were to change beyond prediction its future and with it the future of humanity. President Truman and his top Military Commanders found themselves virtually impotent after having just won the most devastating and costly war in history. The United States had developed, used, and was the only nation on earth in possession of the Atomic Bomb which alone had the potential to destroy any enemy, and even the Earth itself. At that time the United States had the best economy, the most advanced technology, the highest standard of living, exerted the most influence, and fielded the largest and most powerful military forces in history.

We can only imagine the confusion and concern when the informed elite of the United States Government discovered that an alien spacecraft piloted by insect-like beings from a totally incomprehensible culture had crashed in the desert of New Mexico.
Between January 1947 and December 1952 at least 16 crashed or downed alien craft, 65 alien bodies, and 1 live alien was recovered. An additional alien craft had exploded and nothing was recovered from that incident. Of these incidents, 13 occurred within the borders of the United States not including the craft, which disintegrated in the air. Of these 13, 1 was in Arizona, 11 were in New Mexico, and 1 was in Nevada. Three occurred in foreign countries. Of those 1 was in Norway, and the last 2 were in Mexico. Sightings of UFOs were so numerous that serious investigation and debunking of each report became impossible utilizing the existing intelligence assets.

An alien craft was found on February 13,1948 on a mesa near Aztec, New Mexico. Another craft was located on March 25,1948 in Hart Canyon near Aztec, New Mexico It was 100 feet in diameter. A total of 17 alien bodies were recovered from those two craft. Of even greater significance was the discovery of a large number of human body parts stored within both of these vehicles. The Secret lid immediately became an Above Top Secret lid and was screwed down tight. The security blanket was even tighter than that imposed upon the Manhattan Project. In the coming years these events were to become the most closely guarded secrets in the history of the world.

A special group of America's top scientists were organized and the name Project Sign in December of 1947 to study the phenomenon. Project Sign evolved into Project Grudge in December of 1948. A low level collection and disinformation project named Blue Book was formed under Grudge including the controversial "Grudge 13" "Blue Teams" were put together to recover the crashed disks and dead or alive aliens. The Blue Teams were later to evolve into Alpha Teams under Project Pounce.


[edit on 13-10-2007 by andre18]



posted on Feb, 27 2014 @ 02:20 PM
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I just watched a program called " The Universe" in which the subject was ufo's and their possible means of propulsion systems. They also touched briefly on a couple of high profile ufo cases. On the subject of Roswell they had a comment from Seth Shosack with S.E.T.I. and talking about Roswell he said, " it was almost certainly a coverup." Wow. I have never heard this from Seth, and it took me by surprise. I too believe Roswell really happened, there was a coverup and then there was the disinformation campaign waged against it for decades. I like Seth Shosack even more after today.



posted on Feb, 27 2014 @ 02:26 PM
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I personally like the debunking scenario where the old Paper Clip ex-Nazis were shooting corpses (or volunteers) up out of White Sands testing range with V-2s to see what would happen to a human body at high g-forces and altitude. This is the kind of thing that the U.S. would probably still want to keep quiet about.

Other than that, Roswell pretty much debunks itself. After all these years, still no paperwork, no photos, no hard evidence. Just a lot of storytelling. Sounds like a typical Army SNAFU gone out of control (instead of a flying saucer).



posted on Mar, 10 2014 @ 05:41 PM
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Well I feel that I have to debunk the debunker. You can only believe what I am about to tell you if you have a friend you trust unquestioningly. We are more like brothers, we each stood as best men at each of our weddings and have an eerily close relationship, the type when you are having issues the phone will ring and guess who is calling from across the country.

This friend a man who I have known for over 30 years relayed a tale to me one night that forever changed the way I viewed the world, for the purpose of his anonymity I will refer to him as Nick. A little background first. Nick at the time of this story was a Captain in the Canadian Air Force (CAF) and held what he called at the time as a designation of something "above top secret", no pun intended. He was cleared for such things as Canadian Eyes Only etc. and was very well versed in cyphers of various types.

Nick wouldn't go into specific details but explained to me when he was away on mission in the USA, California I believe, he was "accidently" exposed to certain materiel. The information in question was directly related to the Roswell crash of 1947. The very highly ranked (as stated by Nick) US military personnel told him he had basically seen the official evidence and proof of the incident and along with the fact he held a very high security clearance the cat was more or less out of the bag. They proceeded to show him the rest of the file in question. The file contained the complete official report and accompanying photo evidence. At this point he told me that the story we had pretty much all heard was in fact true. A saucer crashed, there were several dead ETB's and one surviving ETB. He saw the official pictures of the crashed craft and all of the occupants. Beyond that he would say any more for whatever reason.

This conversation occurred approximately twenty five years ago and as he said at the time "we will never speak of this again" and |I will not acknowledge the existence of the event ever again". He was true to his word and when some time later after the event had finally sunk in when questioned he would not respond in any way.

So once again what you believe is what you believe.



posted on Mar, 10 2014 @ 06:08 PM
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themate14
So once again what you believe is what you believe.

It's an interesting third-hand story, but again, there's nothing to back it up. And personally, I prefer not to have to "believe" something because I can never be sure I'm right, or if somebody just didn't misinterpret something or get fed a load of disinformation created in-house to track security leaks (or whatever).

Belief is just too lazy.



posted on Mar, 12 2014 @ 08:55 AM
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wow, you just solved the puzzle! are you a wizard??



posted on Mar, 12 2014 @ 08:59 AM
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reply to post by jeepin4x4girl
 


You're very, very close. I am not at liberty to explain in detail.



posted on Mar, 14 2014 @ 12:49 PM
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reply to post by jeepin4x4girl
 


Debunked? Hardly. For omne thing this conjecture fails to answer any of these ourstanding questions on the matter...

If the debris originated from a top-secret test, why was there no recovery or search operation underway until rancher Mac Brazel reported the debris to Sheriff George Wilcox one day after the find on Sunday, July 6? An aerial search over open range and high desert would have taken but a few hours to locate any downed object. This has been confirmed by retired military officers, who were involved in actual search-and-rescue missions in New Mexico. We, too, have flown private planes over the Brazel site demonstrating the panoramic field of vision. Given that the debris field was three-quarters of a mile long, a search and recovery team could have located it long before Brazel did.
Weather balloons had fallen onto Brazel’s ranch on a number of occasions, and he turned them in for the rewards offered. Such devices always carried instructions and return policies which usually included the name of the manufacturer and location of the launch site. In 1945, he reported finding the remains of a Japanese balloon bomb. This time, however, he reportedly was angry because of the large amount of debris. His frightened sheep would not cross the pasture due to the vast coverage of the material. It is interesting to note that weather balloons are still dropping on the ranch. The current owners store them in an old feed storage silo. One particularly large balloon, about 20 feet in diameter, took one man approximately two minutes to retrieve. He had no trouble identifying it.
After personally examining samples of the material, why did Brazel’s neighbors encourage him to report the crash for the $3,000 reward reported by the press for physical evidence of a flying disc and not for the standard $5 balloon reward?
How did the highly trained and experienced military officers of the famous 509th atomic bomb wing, the first and only nuclear strike force in the world at that time, mistake a conventional weather instrument for an object they all, without exception, concluded to be an actual “flying saucer?” Skeptics who believe that it was a special radar-reflecting balloon from Project Mogul have said that the civilians, the base commander, Col. William Blanchard, the head of intelligence, Marcel, and all the other officers at Roswell were unfamiliar with such specialized equipment. Marcel, however, had a radar interpretation officer assigned to his office. He would have been able to recognize the balloon, even if the others were fooled. Even considering Mogul, balloon materials consisting of Neoprene rubber, reflective foil, wooden sticks, masking tape, and balling twine still comprised such a device—materials easily identifiable by even a child.
What type of balloon and instrument package could scatter debris over an area three-quarters of a mile long and create a 500-foot long/10-foot wide gouge in the tough high desert country of New Mexico which consists of little topsoil and mostly shale and slate stone?
What type of balloon would fill Marcel’s 1942 Buick convertible, and Cavitt’s jeep carryall truck and still require 50 to 60 troops with wheelbarrows and trucks two days to complete the cleanup?
Why did the military check the site for possible radiation if the downed object was nothing more than a common weather/Mogul balloon? After he was found at the home of Walt Whitmore Sr., majority owner of radio station KGFL in Roswell, on the morning of Tuesday, July 8, why was Brazel held in detention at the base for another seven days? According to Brazel, he was not allowed to place any outside calls, not even to his wife. He was also forced to undergo a physical examination. His family and neighbors remember how he later complained how he had been asked the same questions “over and over again,” and that he described the experience by saying he “was in jail.”
Why did the Secretary of the Federal Communications Commission, a Mr. Slowie in Washington, D.C., personally call Whitmore at KGFL and threaten removal of his broadcasting license if the station continued airing reports of the incident? Why would the chair of the Senate Appropriations Committee, Senator Dennis Chavez of New Mexico, also call Whitmore and persuade him to comply with the FCC order? *
Why the need for extreme security measures at the crash site of a downed meteorological instrument? Measures such as: armed guards surrounding the inner gouge area, another cordon around the perimeter, riflemen posted on the surrounding hills, and MPs stationed on the outlying roads from Saturday, July 5, through at least Thursday, the 10th.
Why was Bud Payne, a hired hand on one of the neighboring ranches, physically removed from the Brazel ranch during the military occupation of the site? As Payne was attempting to round up a stray cow, a military jeep roared up to him and MPs physically forced him off the ranch.
Why were there seven confirmed (possibly eight) flights to transport the remains of a balloon? Most of the wreckage was flown out under high security July 5–10 . . . rather extreme treatment even within the confines of the top security base in the world at that time.
If the object was nothing more than a weather balloon, or even a Project Mogul device, why would Colonel Blanchard set up operations at the recovery site? As the commanding officer of the 509th Bomb Group, Blanchard would have had more important duties.
Why was farmer Sherman Campbell and the local sheriff in Circleville, Ohio, able to immediately identify the Rawin (Mogul) target device that crashed there on July 5, while no one in Roswell could? In fact, the Campbell family was even permitted to keep the balloon the Air Force currently claims was so secret.
Why was the debris of a weather balloon, as identified by Warrant Officer Irving Newton, displayed in Brigadier General Roger Ramey’s office different from that of a Mogul balloon device? The new Air Force theory describes painted floral symbols on masking tape used to reinforce the radar kite in an effort to explain hieroglyphic-like characters on I-beam structures as portrayed by witnesses. Even under high magnification none are evident in the photographs taken in Ramey’s office at Fort Worth (Carswell) Army Air Field in Texas.
Why did Ramey’s Chief of Staff Colonel Thomas J. DuBose (who is pictured with Ramey in two of the weather balloon photos) sign a sworn affidavit in 1990 attesting to switching the balloon wreckage for the genuine material? “It was a cover story . . . to get the press off of Ramey’s back.”
Contrary to Ramey announcing to reporters the weather balloon explanation along with his cancellation of debris being flown to Wright Field in Dayton, Ohio, why did the FBI refute the General’s claims in a telex which was sent at 6:17 p.m. CST the same day of the press conference on July 8? “...But that telephonic conversation between their office and [Wright Field] had not borne out this belief. Disc and balloon being transported to Wright Field by special plane for examination.”
Why did a special photo team from Washington, D.C., under the command of Col. Anton Hansen, arrive at Roswell to photograph the recovery and record the subsequent events? Against standard operating procedure, the 3rd Photo Lab at the Roswell base was never called in to photograph the crash site or the material.
Why were two Secret Service agents by the names McCann and Devinnes dispatched from Washington to represent the president in Roswell during the incident?
Why were there unknown doctors and nurses observed at the Roswell base hospital at the time of the incident as noted by nurse Rosemary McMannis?
If the recovery was of nothing more unusual that a Mogul balloon, photographed in Ramey’s office by the news media on July 8, why did the military, on July 9, tour the various news media in Roswell retrieving copies of Walter Haut’s press release? If there was nothing to the story, why did the military search radio station KGFL, taking everything that related to the crash, including the documents that newsman Frank Joyce tried to hide?
Why did the U.S. military, like a scene from a 1950’s sci-fi movie, surround the Roswell Sheriff s Office just to retrieve a small box of debris that Brazel had left there days earlier?
Why did the Pentagon contact Muroc (Edwards) Army Air Field in California inquiring as to any missing Northrop flying wings within days of the crash north of Roswell? Muroc responded “negative.” Due to jet engine conversion, none were operational in 1947. Eyewitnesses reported the recovered craft at Roswell was wing-shaped, not saucer.
There was reportedly talk at the base during the recovery concerning “bodies” involved in the crash. Rumors circulated through the town of Roswell about one of the crew still alive. One day after the first press release, the Army and Navy, as reported by the Associated Press, moved to “Shut down the rumors.” The Air Force now maintains that no such “talk” concerning bodies took place. Why?
Secrecy oaths would not have been required for the recovery of a weather balloon, or any other conventional device, unless it was a highly classified subject. Why were the men involved taken into a conference room in groups of 10–12 and verbally sworn to protect the truth concerning what actually happened? Others at Roswell and Fort Worth were ordered not to discuss it, or ever bring it up again.
Ed Reese, in charge of the now declassified Project Blue Book files at the National Archives, told us that he too was surprised that Roswell is not included in the Blue Book system with all other explained reports. Why is the most highly publicized UFO case of all time strangely absent?
Neighbors of Mac Brazel, including Loretta Proctor and her son Norris, reported that Brazel returned from his detention driving a new pick-up truck. According to Norris Proctor, Brazel, who had been “dirt poor,” suddenly had money to buy a new house in Tularosa, a meat locker in Las Cruces, and property in Colorado. Robert Wolf, also a good friend of Brazel, recounted how he observed him with a new truck at the Mitchell Feed and Granary in Roswell within months of the incident. Was Brazel paid the reward for the physical evidence of a flying saucer?
The daughter of Melvin Brown reported that her father, who had seen the bodies the day they were recovered, along with the MPs at the crash site, were paid off. She said that a special trust account was established in Roswell for the guards. Why would there be payoffs to maintain secrecy of a weather balloon? A handwritten note with the account number was supplied by Brown just days before he died. Attempts to locate such a fund have been unsuccessful.
There are two, possibly three sites involved with the crash at Roswell. First is the debris field. Thirty miles to the southeast where the remains of the craft and crew were located is the second. A few miles to the northwest of the debris site was apparently a touchdown point of baked soil and fused sand which was first seen by Chaves County deputies and then by Lewis R. Rickett and Dr. Lincoln LaPaz. How is it possible that a balloon and array train could be responsible for sites such as these?
Pieces of small wreckage Brazel’s son Bill Jr. had managed to collect were confiscated by the military in 1949. Why was the military still monitoring the situation two years later? This was almost two years after Mogul had been declassified. Why were search teams still dispatched from the base at Roswell through the end of 1947, through 1948, and into 1949 to recover remaining debris at the sites specifically after heavy rainfalls as described by Major Charles McGee?
If the Roswell device was nothing more than a weather balloon, why bring in LaPaz, a noted expert in the discovery and recovery of meteorites? LaPaz had worked on dozens of classified government projects, including the ultra-classified Manhattan Project. If it was nothing more unusual than a balloon, why would the Pentagon assign him to determine the speed and trajectory of the downed device two months after the crash?
In 1952, Major Ellis Boldra, an engineer stationed at Roswell, discovered a one-foot-square section of debris locked in a safe in the engineering office. It displayed the same extraordinary characteristics described by 1947 witnesses including the memory capabilities. Why did Washington D.C. dispatch a special courier to retrieve the material immediately after news leaked out about its discovery in Roswell?
At our request, retired Navy Seal officer Charles Mascovich submitted the names and documented series numbers of over two dozen military personnel stationed at Roswell in July 1947 to both the Defense Department and the Veteran’s Administration for further confirmation of military service. The list included Charles E. Hanshaw, James W. Hundley, William J. Cardell, Lee J. Mulliner, Melvin E. Brown, Ernest O. Powell, Clyde M. Robertson, Cecil T. Yoakum, Harold T. Hastings, Edward M. Sager, and Donald E. Carroll. Why does neither the Defense Department nor the Veteran’s Administration have records of any of these men when we can document that each served at the Roswell Army Air Field?
If there was nothing to the Roswell case other than a misidentification of a weather balloon, why have witnesses, on their deathbeds, denied that? Melvin E. Brown spent the last four days of his life telling his family that it wasn’t a weather balloon. Why was the dying archaeologist/geologist at St. Petersburg Hospital in Florida telling the nurses she had seen the bodies and then warning them about government reprisal? Roswell base Provost Marshal Edwin Easley, base Adjutant Patrick Saunders, and 393 Squadron pilot O.W. “Pappy” Henderson also gave deathbed testimony confirming the “flying saucer” crash and the recovery of bodies. And there are others more recent.
The unusual qualities of the material described to date by two dozen known eyewitnesses are consistent in every detail. In appearance, tensile strength, apparent weightlessness, memory characteristics, uninterpretable symbology, fiber-optic and plastic-like, metallic composition, its physical make-up would be difficult to duplicate even by today’s standards. Why do none of the first-hand witnesses describe common materials from a weather balloon? And more importantly, why were none of these individuals interviewed by the Air Force for their 1994 Roswell Report?
In an unprecedented reaction by then Secretary of Defense Les Aspin, why did he refuse to respond to three separate letters of request for the release of the Roswell files from Congressman Steve Shiff of New Mexico in 1993? Why did Congressman Shiff also receive denials from the Air Force, the Pentagon, and the National Security Council for similar requests?
And if Mogul was as highly classified as the Air Force maintains, which evidently led to the misidentification in Roswell, how is it that they invited the press to photograph this missing, top-secret balloon in Ramey’s office and promote the publication of seven different pictures in practically every major newspaper throughout the country? And why would they blow the entire project (with pictures) in the Alamogordo News of July 10, 1947?
Concerning the 1997 Air Force book titled Roswell Report—Case Closed that proposed the “crash dummy” explanation, given that the very earliest such tests took place six years after the 1947 incident, why didn’t the Air Force consider that none of the first-hand witnesses to the bodies remained in the service or were still in New Mexico at the time of such crash-dummy tests?
Each description of the bodies by the witnesses from Roswell is consistent. Interestingly, they do not resemble what have been commonly described by witnesses in reported UFO occupant cases as well as the alleged abduction accounts. This would tend to rule out contamination from such sources. And why were none of these witnesses ever interviewed by the Air Force for any of their recent reports?
Why would the United States military resort to gross civil-rights violations, i.e., physical intimidation and death threats to such civilians asFrankie Rowe, Tommy Thomson, Frank Joyce, Judd Roberts, Walt Whitmore Sr., Pete and Ruben Anaya, John McBoyle, and George Wilcox? And why were their threats extended to even the witness’s children to insure their silence about the recovery of simply a weather balloon? Project Mogul was declassified within two days of the reported balloon explanation on July 10, 1947; still the threats continued for years after the incident.
And finally, why do retired members of the military today in 1999, years after the Air Force Project Mogul and Crash Dummy Reports, still refuse to break their oaths of secrecy concerning the Roswell incident?



posted on Mar, 14 2014 @ 01:25 PM
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reply to post by jeepin4x4girl
 


This exactly, has been one of my theories for some time. I have no evidence other than the probability and likelihood over an alien crash.



posted on Mar, 14 2014 @ 01:45 PM
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TheFlash
Debunked? Hardly. For omne thing this conjecture fails to answer any of these ourstanding questions on the matter...

If the debris originated from a top-secret test [...]

What debris? Where is it? Nobody bothered to keep a piece of this miraculous stuff? All "taken away?" No follow-up reports? How convenient.


.. why was there no recovery or search operation underway until rancher Mac Brazel reported the debris to Sheriff George Wilcox one day after the find on Sunday, July 6?

Who says there wasn't? Maybe they were just looking in the wrong area. So many assumptions...


After personally examining samples of the material, why did Brazel’s neighbors encourage him to report the crash for the $3,000 reward reported by the press for physical evidence of a flying disc and not for the standard $5 balloon reward?

Even if it were true, suddenly we're supposed to believe that people wound up over flying saucer reports in the newspapers can't be stupid and wrong? More stories, more conjecture.


How did the highly trained and experienced military officers of the famous 509th atomic bomb wing, the first and only nuclear strike force in the world at that time, mistake a conventional weather instrument for an object they all, without exception, concluded to be an actual “flying saucer?”

You mean, how did a bunch of GIs manage to horribly miscommunicate with each other and screw something up? You haven't been in the military, I gather. They invented the acronym SNAFU.


What type of balloon and instrument package could scatter debris over an area three-quarters of a mile long and create a 500-foot long/10-foot wide gouge in the tough high desert country of New Mexico which consists of little topsoil and mostly shale and slate stone?

Is there an official report of this, or just more stories?


Why did the military check the site for possible radiation if the downed object was nothing more than a common weather/Mogul balloon?

Do you have a record and report of this test?

I could go on, but you get the point. Where's the official documentation of any of this?


And finally, why do retired members of the military today in 1999, years after the Air Force Project Mogul and Crash Dummy Reports, still refuse to break their oaths of secrecy concerning the Roswell incident?

Maybe because there's nothing to it? The "death bed confessions" so far have been sadly lacking in any details that could be confirmed. And certainly nothing you can hold in your hands.

At the end of the day, what do we have? A press release screw-up in 1947 and years of stories, stories, stories, stories. Oh, and more stories. It all just floats away in the wind like some kind of lightweight foil material that you can hit with a sledgehammer and not dent, but somehow tore into fragments scattered all over a field. Or so they say.



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