Roswell: Debunked.

Originally posted by jeepin4x4girl

But yeah, I just think people should be cool with each other and not attack their theories/ideas/whatever, because it is indirectly a personal attack upon the person as well.

jeepin4x4girl, I apologize if you were offended by any of my posts. I was only posting in the defense of Gazrok because I thought this thread was in response (and attack) to his new Roswell threads. If you were simply posting your theory then I'm sorry...

But you should have been more specific.

You gave me the impression that you believed your theory was the "end all, be all" of the Roswell incident, and considering you posted no source links, and no names well frankly, as a believer of the crashed UFO explanation, I felt a bit insulted. In my opinion you shouldnt have titled it "Roswell: Debunked".

Originally posted by acidhead
huh

you find it easier to believe that aliens crashed a ufo in the desert than a weatherballoon crashed in the desert ?

Yes. Especially when the evidence shows that it was not a weather baloon.

The air force has changed its story three times. The witness testimony has remained unchanged.

The Air Force has lied, and has twisted facts, chronology, and speculation to distort the story even further.

So, since we do not have alien bodies and craft for evidence, we must examine testimony, and witness reliability and possibility.

Air Force: has changed story a few times. Has history of cover-up behavior in many areas. Weaver, the Air Force Colonel who came up with the Mogul baloon sotry was a counter intelligence officer- Specialty: disinformation.

Witnesses: Com,e from very impressive backgrounds. Some held very important security positions. Many familiar with Air Force tech.

If this was a court of law, the ruling would be in favor of the alien crash theory, even without the bodies and wreckage. Without those, we could not get the defendant on a murder conviction.

But it would nail many other convictions on the air force.

Air Force has zero credibility here. How can anyone believe anyone who has lied pathologically on this subject over and over again?

So yes, given what evidence we have, I find it alot easier to believe aliens crashed in the desert than Mogul or a human test, given the evidence.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

Originally posted by acidhead
huh

you find it easier to believe that aliens crashed a ufo in the desert than a weatherballoon crashed in the desert ?

Yes. Especially when the evidence shows that it was not a weather baloon.

The air force has changed its story three times. The witness testimony has remained unchanged.

The Air Force has lied, and has twisted facts, chronology, and speculation to distort the story even further.

So, since we do not have alien bodies and craft for evidence, we must examine testimony, and witness reliability and possibility.

Air Force: has changed story a few times. Has history of cover-up behavior in many areas. Weaver, the Air Force Colonel who came up with the Mogul baloon sotry was a counter intelligence officer- Specialty: disinformation.

Witnesses: Com,e from very impressive backgrounds. Some held very important security positions. Many familiar with Air Force tech.

If this was a court of law, the ruling would be in favor of the alien crash theory, even without the bodies and wreckage. Without those, we could not get the defendant on a murder conviction.

But it would nail many other convictions on the air force.

Air Force has zero credibility here. How can anyone believe anyone who has lied pathologically on this subject over and over again?

So yes, given what evidence we have, I find it alot easier to believe aliens crashed in the desert than Mogul or a human test, given the evidence.

Yeah, what he said.

Your right, if the government were to testify in court, their credibility would be questionable at best.

BTW, do those aliens ever stop hitting each other? Great avatar.

What about that foil that was found at Roswell that when you crumpled it would uncrumple itself? Or the miles of debris? Or how the metal was so light?

Dont worry guys when I am elected president Ill release the information evan if my life was in danger Some people think thats why Kennedy was assasinated anyway.

Originally posted by rwatkins
Yeah, what he said.

Your right, if the government were to testify in court, their credibility would be questionable at best.

BTW, do those aliens ever stop hitting each other? Great avatar.

No, they don't. They are locked in eternal galactic bitch slapping.

I consider the govornment like a cheating lying lover. They cheat and lie, you have caught them several times. Suddenly, they come up with another tale of where they were last night. After such a legacy of lies, disinformation, and simply showing total disregard form truth, are we really gonna believe em now?

Originally posted by cybertroy
The original Roswell crash news story was released as a "flying saucer," but was replaced by "weather baloon" story. Correct?

You are correct the original statement from the Goverment was that it captured a flying saucer or (disc).

This report came from the intelligence office of the 509th. The 509th at that time was the only bomber squadron equiped with Atomic bombs at the time. These guys were highly trained men not morons. To think that they could confuse a Mogul balloon made of mostly Tinfoil and Balsa wood with a alien craft is unthinkable IMHO.

But thats exactly what the Goverment wants us to believe happened

But thats exactly what the Goverment wants us to believe happened

And half of the public bought into it.

Lightweight "Metal" that crumples and uncrumples? Heard of Mylar? Pretty common balloon material today. Not well known in 1947, methinks.

[edit on 21-2-2005 by TheAvenger]

[edit on 21-2-2005 by TheAvenger]

TheAvenger one little problem with the 'Mylar theory' It wasnt invented until the 1960s. Alittle hard for it to be the Roswell material when its not going to be invented for nearly another 2 decades

Perhaps, Shadow. However, It could well have been a US military secret material in 1947. There certainly are many such things today. I have read in these pages that military technology is 20-40 years ahead of their civilian counterpart. That may well be so, but not the millitary I was a part of in the 70s. I think we were 20 years behind the civilians. I firmly believe in the UFO phenomenon, by the way. Just playing Devil's advocate.

[edit on 21-2-2005 by TheAvenger]

[edit on 21-2-2005 by TheAvenger]

But they dont hide things as unimportant as when Mylar was invented over half a century after the fact. To believe that they would have to still be lying about when Mylar was invented to this day in 2005.

You can find out what was uber topsecret much more recent in the 60s things like the SR-71, MK-Ultra or the development of stealth tech. But when Mylar was invented lets keep a lid on that.

I just cant buy that

Infact if they could prove they had Mylar in 1947 it would help there case in Roswell, yet they dont do it why? I think the answer is simple because they cant because it was invented many years later.

Originally posted by TheAvenger

However, It could well have been a US military secret material in 1947.

Decent theory, and I've thought of that too, possibly a top secret military aircraft constructed with new metals or something.

But answer me this--the crash debris was documented to not be found until DAYS after the crash occured by rancher Mac Brazel. If the military had a top secret aircraft that crashed out in the open desert dont you think they would have been tracking it and had their recovery teams out to clean it up before anyone else could have found it?? This to me is a great point showing why whatever crashed out there most likely WAS NOT "one of our's".

Originally posted by Terapin

No one has yet to discuss how a baloon over the US could somehow magicaly spy on the USSR.

To try to clear up any confusion about that statement, I'm pretty sure the Mogul baloon flights in Roswell were tests. They were testing the top secret balloons with radar spy equipment to be later used over Russia.

Some further info...

I read somewhere that the Mogul project was originally based in Pennsylvania, but because of a disastrous first testing caused by bad weather the project was relocated to New Mexico. Not sure how much of that is factual.

Originally posted by Terapin
The whole man in a baloon theory is rubbish. We knew the effects of high altitude LOW pressure on humans back then and had a long record of scientific study on the subject from during the war. You do not expand as suggested unless you are at near vaccume far above altitudes that can be reached by a manned baloon and only your eyes would bulge out not your entire head. The skull would not expand. military protocal requires that a parachute be equipt on all flights and would have been delpoyed in an emergency. Mylar does not return to its orrigional shape when crumpeled nor does it remain unwrinkeled although there is some springback it is no where near to the descripion of eye witnesses. We dont even need to discuss the time frame of mylars invention as we know it didnt even exist at the time. A protective suit without a helmet?? Come on, we well knew of the extreem cold of high altutudes and a helmet with oxygen equiptment would of been used for any high altitude flights in a manned baloon. No one has yet to discuss how a baloon over the US could somehow magicaly spy on the USSR. If that was possible then why did the balck hawk spy plane have to fly over the USSR years later and not simply fly over the US? A manned baloon would have had some means of comunicating with the ground and would of either had some means of controle or a tether to bring it down. They wouldnt simply send one up with a man aboard, let it go and then abandon it to the fates. Its too illogical. I could poke holes in the baloon theory all day but it is so far off that that particular baloon theory will never get off the ground. If you must debunk please come up with a better thought out concept.

I was told that the occupants involved in the experiment/study, whatever you want to call it, DID in fact go far enough up into the atmosphere, actually, past the atmosphere, where that vacuum effect does occur. Now, that being said, the entrance into above the atmosphere probably is what caused the balloon manned craft (whatever you want to call it), to crash once it hit that certain altitude.

Did any of you see the special on Roswell on SCI FI? Of course you have all seen the picture of the two military men squatting down next to some pieces of tin foil, the supposed debri found at the crash site. But have you taken notice of the piece of paper in the ranking military officers hand???
On Sci Fi they got a hold of a high res picture and they were able to read the writing on the piece of paper. And it is EXTREMELY DAMNING!!! The man holding the note is the army captain of something who is in charge of the discovery at Roswell. The piece of paper talks about " a "disk" will be shipped", " and the victims" of the crash, something about saying it was a weather ballon, and the debris will be flown in a c4 or other plane.

Well I can't remember exactly what the line were. But it mentions victims of the crash. How can there be any victims of a weather ballon crash? Why does it say that a "disk" will be shipped, if it was a weather ballon??!

I say the government is lucky that this happen in the 40s. If this happened today we would be all over this thing, and we would find out the truth in no time. In fact I can't wait till one crashes again because this time people will not keep quite! and there will be no way to cover up evidence!

Here's a bit of proof, this was actually stated awhile back in the orlando sentenial, from orlando, FL.

Unfortunately, this article dates way back, not sure if it's on the main orlando sentenial site, but somebody posted a summary of the article.

FROM THE MODERATOR

Summary

Growing criticism prompted the Air Force to launch a full-scale
investigation, which ended in last week's report, optimistically
titled, The Roswell Report; Case Closed.

Still, McAndrew and Kittinger believe the witnesses are simply
confusing 40- to 50-year-old events, and they note that no one claimed
to have seen or heard of alien bodies until the 1970s.

An ''alien'' with a large head seen walking on the base after the
crash was actually a pilot whose head was grotesquely swollen after a
parachuting injury, they said.

''People want to believe that there are UFOs, people want to believe
that there are aliens.

And here's the sight that this quote came from....
www.ufomind.com...

But this article was back from June 1997, so I'm not sure if you're going to find it again.


[edit on 2/22/2005 by jeepin4x4girl]

hi jeepin girl,~
sorry...im not buying your theory.....i cant remember everything ive read about rosell in the past 10 years but theres been too many other things involved with the way the goverment originally tried to cover over this supposed weather balloon crash.....gazrocks case study is far more convincing (as far as proving the goverment lied and badly goes)...ive read about top secret downed spylanes like the a12 that were handled far better and with less cock ups than the roswell incident....im sorry but if your buying your own story you need to be a good detective and debunk the credible information already accepted as fact that makes the goverment looklike teenagers covering up a house party from their parents.

regards.

It's called the Ramey memo, and I touch in it in the Roswell threads...

I was told that the occupants involved in the experiment/study, whatever you want to call it, DID in fact go far enough up into the atmosphere, actually, past the atmosphere, where that vacuum effect does occur. Now, that being said, the entrance into above the atmosphere probably is what caused the balloon manned craft (whatever you want to call it), to crash once it hit that certain altitude.

Again, we still have the same problems...even if we go down the rabbit hole of supposing this actually took place....

1. Just how were these folks supposed to see and/or document anything they saw from that altitude?

2. So they just sacrificed these guys?

3. Why even send a man? An automated camera would have sufficed...

4. They had no way to control the flight direction of these alleged observation balloons.

Simply put, the theory has more holes than swiss cheese....

Originally posted by Gazrok
It's called the Ramey memo, and I touch in it in the Roswell threads...

I was told that the occupants involved in the experiment/study, whatever you want to call it, DID in fact go far enough up into the atmosphere, actually, past the atmosphere, where that vacuum effect does occur. Now, that being said, the entrance into above the atmosphere probably is what caused the balloon manned craft (whatever you want to call it), to crash once it hit that certain altitude.

Again, we still have the same problems...even if we go down the rabbit hole of supposing this actually took place....

1. Just how were these folks supposed to see and/or document anything they saw from that altitude?

2. So they just sacrificed these guys?

3. Why even send a man? An automated camera would have sufficed...

4. They had no way to control the flight direction of these alleged observation balloons.

Simply put, the theory has more holes than swiss cheese....

yes, it does indeed have a lot of holes, You know when somebody tells you something, a story, or an event that took place from word of mouth? You don't always remember exactly every single little detail...you only remember the important facts, while the little facts that lead up to the big ones can be what count as well, but are forgotten nontheless.

yes, it does indeed have a lot of holes, You know when somebody tells you something, a story, or an event that took place from word of mouth? You don't always remember exactly every single little detail...you only remember the important facts, while the little facts that lead up to the big ones can be what count as well, but are forgotten nontheless.

I realize that, but in your first posting, you stated this as a matter of fact, not that it was a second-hand account of information. We also bring all of this up, so that the next time you speak with this source, you may wish to address any or all of the points raised, just for your own clarification. Again, we're attacking the merits of the theory, certainly not you as a person or as a member....

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
The Goverment first said they had recovered a ''disc''

Then we get the Goverment ''simple explaination'' just a (Weather Ballon) and they lied. Even though people believed them for a long time.

Then they say it was Top secret Mogul

Then they say it was Mogul and dummies dropped from Balloons

The Goverment's simple explaination is not so simple

Maybe none of the above are true. If you don't believe in the militarys Mogul excuse....why would you believe in the militarys 'flying disc' excuse?...it was the original military story. You know.....which one of the lies do you believe in the most?
maybe? www.bewilderingstories.com...
www.martiansgohome.com...

Like..it's not even the best UFO story...yet it seems to be the only one most people know.
'tough paper...funny tape with funny symbols...wire...rubbery wood or woody rubber...foil...yup must be one of them danged flying saucers from outer space....nup nup nup there can be no other excuse, and even if there is I've made my mind up and my ego doesn't like to be proved wrong (sarcasm)


[edit on 22-2-2005 by Zero Point]