Bart Ehrman?

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: Raggedyman

I think you really mean I am unwilling to except nonesense as evidence..

Josh it's not my buisness what you want to believe, it's irrelevant
I am explaining to Christians why Ehrman chose atheism
Ehrman was more interested in theology, gnosis, reading and idolising the book than walking the Christian life
It's a trap for many Christians, we have to live as Christians with our faith in God not a book, any book, not a man any man

Please feel free to believe what ever you want
I don't stand in your way

If Ehrman wasn't smart enough to understand why bad things happen to people then he doesn't understand the human mind

It does not matter what the human mind does...this place..this creation is truly a sick experiment.

Walking a Christian life has little effect in the end...you are lying to yourself...one of those who needs to be told how to be structured.

I know people who have never been in a church save for weddings who understand more about Love, the Heart, help more people understand how and why they are suffering than ANYONE in christianity can...and also promise to reveal what this Creation is about.

Your Christ in your mind does not have all the answers...so we will seek them out irregardless of the tired threats and fears of the religious..of the angels and demons...of anyone who thinks they should continue running this place.

Bart does a good job..as do many of the apologetics.

They fear losing followers and fear God.

Fear has no part...all will be revealed and if necessary...what calls itself god..God..the Gods here will explain all or...be returned to the dust they have long forgotten.

a reply to: ParasuvO

Christians are taught to have no fear, it's in the bible
I know non Christians who are better people than Christians, all people are different

As for what Ehrman, he was a Christian but gave it up because his faith was in the bible, not Jesus, that's the issue

Yes this world does suck, it's not the way it should be, I agree
I am hoping there will be a time when things will be made right

a reply to: Raggedyman

Dan Wallace a peer of Erman knows him well .Wallace also points out "errors" or variants in the NT manuscripts which bart is familiar with and states that none of the variants change the core doctrine's of the Christian faith . As a example Wallace points out that there are many ways in Greek to say that John loves Mary . Each way you say it becomes a variant .Adding to the many variants is the fact that we have so many ancient manuscripts . If we only had one copy there would be no variants . . Add to it the spelling errors and the order of the way the copies were made and we have a ton of differences .

Some people take this as a big issue but the core message is the same . We have many Bible versions today for different reasons and they if taken out of context would also add to the differing wording of the scriptures . Any how Back to Bart and Dan Wallace giving his 2 cents about Bart

a reply to: Raggedyman

If that were his reasoning. It does fit all those who do quote every little word of the Bible when attempting to work out biblical phrophecy or reprimand others for disagreeing. That is very valid analysis...

Like I said not nearly as well as the movie “Dogma” if everyone held to religion as more vague concepts than set in stone dogma. The world would be a better place..


However, that isn’t his reason for leaving..

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Depending on what you consider core...

A) The don’t agree about whether jesus knew his fate before the resurrection..

Mark (the earliest thing we have) says jesus didn’t know and cried out “father father, why have you forsaken me?”

Matthew says he knew what was happening and was telling others not to worry..

B) they don’t agree about when he was crucified.

C) they don’t agree about the genealogy of Joseph.. why it would matter if there was a Virgin birth I have no idea..

D) the Virgin birth is only mentioned by one gospel..

E) none agree about if Christians are supposed to follow jewish law. Paul says no 60 years later...


There are PLENTY of big deal contradictions.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

None of those items matter as far as salvation goes . Ephesians 2:8-9 New International Version (NIV)
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. Romans 5:8 New International Version (NIV)
8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

The items you mention are interesting in themselves but are not core for salvation . John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Romans 8:1 King James Version (KJV)
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

John 3:1-21 English Standard Version (ESV)
You Must Be Born Again
3 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus[a] by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.[c] 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You[d] must be born again.’ 8 The wind[e] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Those are not the only ones lol..

Mark is the only book with ANY chance of being from a first hand account.. and that’s skeptical..


John is the least credible, and best written account.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: the2ofusr1

Depending on what you consider core...

A) The don’t agree about whether jesus knew his fate before the resurrection..

Mark (the earliest thing we have) says jesus didn’t know and cried out “father father, why have you forsaken me?”

Matthew says he knew what was happening and was telling others not to worry..

B) they don’t agree about when he was crucified.

C) they don’t agree about the genealogy of Joseph.. why it would matter if there was a Virgin birth I have no idea..

D) the Virgin birth is only mentioned by one gospel..

E) none agree about if Christians are supposed to follow jewish law. Paul says no 60 years later...


There are PLENTY of big deal contradictions.

See Josh, this is the issue
You are pining over little insignificant issues and trying to make it out like a few issues destroy the whole bible
It's irrelevant because Christians faith is in Jesus, not the bible

That's Erhmans problem as well.

I was warning Christians not to get lost in the trivia and keep their eyes on the big picture, Jesus, who we have our faith in, not the bible

As I stated in my first post, in subsequent posts and you keep saying as well, the bible isn't perfect BUT Jesus is

As for big deal contradictions, no they are not, they are insignificant in context

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Bart Erhman even states that there are no issues with the Bible's we have today that takes away from the core Christian doctrine . The Gospel message is preserved . You either accept it or you reject it and you don't even need a reason to reject it . Its by faith .

a reply to: Raggedyman

I'll challenge your post; sure, Bart is an idiot, but he is right to believe if the Bible has errors in it then God is a liar and we cannot have any faith at all in the Bible, or in Jesus Christ either for that matter, considering the only way you know about Jesus Christ at all is because of......the Bible!!!! Secular history does nothing for Jesus Christ (just the way God allowed it to be too, God doesn't need man to validate His-story).

Not sure what kind of Christian you are, but I will answer any supposed errors in the King James Bible you hope to throw at me, or Bart's questions. The KJV Bible has never been proven to have errors in it. And I promise you, I will not use any useless "original greek" or hebrew to answer your errors you post, I will use the KJV Bible alone. All new english translations have tons of errors in them, but not the King James Authorized Version.

Besides, there is already a giant thread on this web site that has most of these "errors" answered already found here:
Bible Answers for members Questions

I await these so called "errors". And don't just ignore this post, I dare you to post errors, any of you are welcome too.

Good luck.

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Bart Erhman even states that there are no issues with the Bible's we have today that takes away from the core Christian doctrine

Where?

originally posted by: MonarchofBooks1611
a reply to: Raggedyman

I'll challenge your post; sure, Bart is an idiot, but he is right to believe if the Bible has errors in it then God is a liar and we cannot have any faith at all in the Bible, or in Jesus Christ either for that matter, considering the only way you know about Jesus Christ at all is because of......the Bible!!!! Secular history does nothing for Jesus Christ (just the way God allowed it to be too, God doesn't need man to validate His-story).

Not sure what kind of Christian you are, but I will answer any supposed errors in the King James Bible you hope to throw at me, or Bart's questions. The KJV Bible has never been proven to have errors in it. And I promise you, I will not use any useless "original greek" or hebrew to answer your errors you post, I will use the KJV Bible alone. All new english translations have tons of errors in them, but not the King James Authorized Version.

Besides, there is already a giant thread on this web site that has most of these "errors" answered already found here:
Bible Answers for members Questions

I await these so called "errors". And don't just ignore this post, I dare you to post errors, any of you are welcome too.

Good luck.

ah

You're back...

Here ya go...

Bibilcal Inerrancy

The problem is, as others have mentioned, without the Bible, there is no Jesus. And if the Bible, as you too admit, is corrupted or contradictory, then how can we trust what it has to say about Jesus?

You say you have to have the Holy Spirit, but the problem is, JUST the Holy Spirit won't cut it, you need the Holy Spirit AND the Bible. Because the story of current Christianity isn't one that anyone who had no idea about Jesus could naturally come to through inspiration: that there is a God, that there is sin, that the removal of sin requires a blood sacrifice, that God also has a son, that God sacrificed his son to wash away the sin, that the son then came back to life.
There's only one recorded instance of someone being divinely inspired to that without the Bible, and that's a story IN the Bible, so again, no idea how much it can be trusted.

An alternate "core message" IS reachable without the aid of the Bible, and lots of Judeo-Christian (and other) Prophets have propounded it throughout the ages: Love the Lord God with all your heart, and all your mind and all your soul, and love your fellow man as yourself. That CAN be divinely inspired (and even logically concluded), but according to you, that isn't the core message.

Certainly, one could agree that the concept of idolising the Bible would be wrong, but one would still need a trustworthy source if that is the only source for all of one's theology. Besides that, we have this passage from 2 Timothy: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."
Which sort of goes against what you're saying as well.

a reply to: babloyi

The problem is, as others have mentioned, without the Bible, there is no Jesus. And if the Bible, as you too admit, is corrupted or contradictory, then how can we trust what it has to say about Jesus?

I agree 100% If there is no perfect Bible that I can litterally buy and hold in my hand, then Christianity and Jesus are useless to me. And this is coming from a born-again saved from Hell Chrstian.

Either Jesus told the truth:

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

or he lied. For Christians too ignore the above quote from Jesus proves them to be naive or ignorant. There MUST be a perfect, without error Bible or, as Fred Nietzsche said, "God is dead."

a reply to: Akragon

You're back...

...I don't know what you're talking about......

And thanks for your thread, I'll dive through it soon (there's a lot) and shot holes in it for you, you're welcome

a reply to: MonarchofBooks1611

If your faith is in the written word, that's fine
Mine is in the living Word
You are welcome to believe whatever you like

Biblisism is when people turn the bible into an idol, the written word into the law, kinda like what the Pharisees did, actually exactly what the Pharisees did, put the word before love

a reply to: Raggedyman

Nope, not true. you're ignoring the issue. First of all, I asked for errors to be posted in the Bible...the silence so far is deafening. As for the implying I practice biblisism, my faith and trust is most certainly in the living Word as well, like your's I'm assuming (brother?), but what good is faith in Jesus if the only way we know about Jesus to have faith in Him, the Bible, is filled with errors!!!

What if the part about Jesus being God is an error? A simple man dying for me 2000 years ago does nothing for my eternal soul. I do not worship the Bible. For one, I can burn my Bible, I cannot burn Jesus, I can tear my Bible, I cannot tear Jesus (nor will anyone else ever tear Him with a whip again. When my Bible gets wore out and falls apart, I buy another one....Jesus does not get wore out.

I am simply saying mankind is required to have a PERFECT copy of God's words (Ps 12:6-7, Prov 30:5-6) that we can hold in our hands and read as we were commanded to by God (John 14:23). It is God's job to preserve and provide these words, and man's job to have faith that God can preserve His words, flawlessly.

So post the flaws arm chair scholars, post the supposed errors you Bible doubting Christians. Go ahead, call God a liar, you already don't think He is powerful enough to provide us with His words, perfectly preserved. My God is strong and mighty, not weak and fallible like Bart's God and sadly...yours.

a reply to: MonarchofBooks1611

Meh, brother?
Your squabbling like a Pharisee, Paul warned the church against squabbling over words

There are two Genesis stories, they are not exact, the bible is not exact
Paul initially states he baptised nobody then lists maybe some he baptised
Does that mean I don't think it's trustworthy, no the bible is very trustworthy

I have no argument with you, I have no wish to debate this
My opinion is different, I find most fundamentalists demand other bow to their opinion or belief, I won't be doing that, fundamentalism is not love

I see the bible as a sign pointing to Christ, in every page, perfect no, more than good enough, yes.
It is not perfect, only Jesus is perfect


My faith is in Christ alone, Jesus died on the cross for me, not the bible
You are welcome to believe in the bible as perfect, not for me thanks

I see it as a book that helps me grow in my relationship with God and other Christians, it's a very important book, but it's not more than that.
Jesus, The Spirit, one in me and I in the other.
I hold the bible, Christ holds me


Oh and your inflammatory hate speech saying I call God a liar, no, I am just saying that man makes errors

a reply to: Raggedyman

I do not squabble, I contend for the faith once delivered to me, as I am commanded too:
Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Paul warned about arguing over endless genealogies, your reference is wrong.

There are two creation accounts, you are right. Just like there are 4 gospel 1st advent accounts (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John), 4 2nd advent accounts in the boo of Revelations, 2 accounts of the giving of the law (Exodus and Deuteronomy) 6 accounts of the Kings and history of Israel, and they all write from their own perspective. They complement each other, they do not copy each other, that would have defeated the whole purpose of God allowing multiple different accounts of the events.

The argument about Paul and baptism: Paul did not say he never baptized anyone, he was saying his job and calling was not to baptize people primarily (like John the BAPTISTS was), his calling was to preach the Gospel of the grace of God. And it just so happens that sometimes he was in a position that he could baptize converts if water was available.

As for your opinion and what you believe, I call to your remembrance, that you are bought with a price (1 Cor 6:19-20) and you are NOT ENTITLED to an opinion as a Christian. You are to accept and believe what God tells you, and not to assume or have opinions of your own. If God said HE personally would preserve His words perfectly, then you are COMMANDED to believe it, regardless of your inflated opinion.

I see the bible as a sign pointing to Christ, in every page, perfect no, more than good enough, yes. It is not perfect, only Jesus is perfect My faith is in Christ alone, Jesus died on the cross for me, not the bible You are welcome to believe in the bible as perfect, not for me thanks

You have no idea what you just said. Why in the world do you even believe in Jesus at all? You do know that the only place in the whole world that you can learn about Jesus is FROM THE BIBLE that you claim has errors in it, right? And if you say that the Bible has errors in it, then WHO DETERMINES WHAT IS RIGHT AND WHAT IS ERROR?????????? The answer apparently.....is you.

Thus making yourself God. I humbly bow to the authority of the King James Bible, and will always give God the benefit of the doubt that His ability to preserve His own words is not compromised, but still in effect. I pray you will do the same one day. As of now, I have more respect for Bart Ehrman's stance than yours.

originally posted by: MonarchofBooks1611
All new english translations have tons of errors in them,

So you DO admit there're errors in the bible. It's good start.

originally posted by: MonarchofBooks1611
but not the King James Authorized Version.

You know, I love empirical evidences. Evidences we can compare, test and verify. But limiting to AKJV, you give me no room. How do you expect me to point out the error, if you already set your mind into believing AKJV's mythical unicorns?

originally posted by: MonarchofBooks1611
What if the part about Jesus being God is an error?

You said it yourself, here:

originally posted by: MonarchofBooks1611
A simple man dying for me 2000 years ago does nothing for my eternal soul.

First you claim Jesus is god, now you contradict yourself by claiming he is a simple man.

And we have not start with Jesus divinity status yet.

originally posted by: MonarchofBooks1611
that we can hold in our hands and read as we were commanded to by God (John 14:23)

Does that include Early Christians who are mostly illiterate? You know, most peasant and fishermen like John could not afford proper education. Koine Greek Bible or ancient Hebrews Bible is very expensive.

Oh AKJV English Bible doesn't exist in first century. So, according to you, God had been lying with Biblical errors until AKJV?