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Bart Ehrman?

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posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 07:28 PM

originally posted by: Seede
You are understanding death in your own understanding and not in God's teaching through His apostles. There is one certain death of the terrestrial body of all terrestrial creation. That includes inanimate as well as animate creation. Then there is another possible death of the spirit. The Christ Jesus did not make it possible for us to live forever in this terrestrial body but did make it possible for us to live forever in a new celestial body.

The poster I replied to seem to imply eternal spirit, which is why I question his interpretation of death. My understanding of death ( second death ) is total annihilation of the spirit.

originally posted by: Seede
You are correct in that God did not die but then you may be mistaken when you state that Jesus did not die the terrestrial death. All biblical accounts do verify that Jesus' terrestrial body did die and that He was restored to His former status as the celestial image of God. If Jesus did die how did He die for your sins? This is where most all Christians are not taught the fullness of why Jesus came to us in the first place.

If you read my post carefully, I wrote, "his flesh died twice" indicating Jesus' terrestrial body. The question was about the end result of such terrestrial death. What is the point of it, since it achieve little? It has failed, because it only serve to save few chosen man. And this is not my understanding of God's plan. God's predestiny never fail because God is perfect. But many failed to understand God nature of omniscient, omnipotent, Justice and Mercy because many are blind with God being a human. God is not human, never was, never be and never will. How do I know? Because God is consistent with his laws. He said it to Moses and He meant it well. Anyone who change his laws was and will be severely punished. It has been proven time over time. But man's ignorance keep believing false doctrine and thus remained confused, even for a simple matter. That is why Jews are very afraid of YHWH. They make sure to preserve God words in anyway they could, they even cause John the Baptist and Jesus death. I don't blame the Jews. I blame the Christian who cannot properly identify which one is the Father, which one is the son and which one the holy spirit. In their blindness, they have commited the most deadly sin of all. There is no other God, but one and only, The most High EL, YHWH. It is the first commandment written by god own hand, passed by down Moses to the world. Times and times Jesus said, he is the son of man and the son of god, but did christian believe this? They only believe in John's immature view of what is divinity. John wasn't even born when Jesus was born. Hence, John never knew Jesus's birth, because he wasnt there. He didnt even exist yet. And where was John when Jesus was arguing with the Pharisees at the temple? He was nowhere!! His account was based on third person account. He didn't even consult Mary the mother and Mary who was actually there all the time. He had no clue what was going on, eventhough he was correct Jesus did say something that angered the Pharisees. No one pay attention to what Mark, Matthew and Luke said. No one even bother to look up at the gospel of Peter. They would rather put their thin faith in some bible copyist who some hundred years later had no idea what are they writing about the sayings of Jesus! And John of Patmos... Who was this man again? The self proclaim prophet who was "in high spirit" and saw someone "who is like the son of man". Yeah right.
Christian like to believe in this kind of crazy guy, rather than Mark or Matthew or Mary who was the real first eyewitness to Jesus' testimonials.

Enough said.

originally posted by: Seede
It all starts when sin was introduced in the creation. The entire creation was then cursed and sentenced to die. This included even the very universe and all that is in it. As people died their spirits were contained or imprisoned in this earth which is called Sheol [by the Hebrews]. No terrestrial creation was allowed in the heavens of the Creator up to and including the time of Jesus. All spirits were kept in Sheol.

God knew that the day would come when the entire terrestrial creation would be completely dissolved . It would not last forever. If this creation would not last forever then what would happen to the good people who were in Sheol? Would the good spirits be dissolved along with the bad spirits? This is where God intervened and, through His Begotten Son, became flesh to deliver the good spirits out of Sheol and establish His kingdom in heaven so that all good spirits could enjoy everlasting life.

How then did Jesus do this? Jesus brought grace [repentance of sin] for those who would accept this new agreement. By accepting this agreement the sinner could then enter into the celestial abode and receive a new celestial body and live forever as a citizen of New Jerusalem. This New Jerusalem is the kingdom of heaven which Jesus preached during His ministry. This is the mission that God sent His Begotten Son to accomplish and this is why it is said that Jesus came to forgive your sins. It was not a blanket forgiveness for people who went to a church and joined the club or any other sort of
organization who claimed whatsoever they wished to proclaim. It was [and still is] a personal agreement between each individual and the Father through Jesus.

We both know that. It's not an issue between us. We both identify and accept Jesus is the begotten son of God. It's an issue between me and the previous poster who seem to adopt heretical view of Arianism ( pre-existence ) and modalism ( god transformation ) and then making a big mess with trinity to explain "God seperation" from Jesus.

originally posted by: Seede
Regardless of belief, the apostles taught that Jesus did die a terrestrial death to bring salvation of everlasting life to this creation. But this dwarfed into a blanket misconception and greatly misunderstood conception. No one gets a free pass because Jesus died on a cross. Each person of accountability must accept Jesus' offer of everlasting life on Jesus' premise and not on any sort of organization liturgy or doctrine of men. This is the true Christian teachings of James [brother of Jesus].

Yeah, I wish those painful death at cross would have mean greater than simply saving few chosen man. But I guess, there is no other choice. We will have to work harder.

posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 08:05 PM
a reply to: randyvs

A) He is not an atheist. He is agnostic.

B) he believes jesus was a real life person. Not the man-god stereotype that most modern Christians believe in.

C) He is probably the only scholar respected by both sides.. atheists and evangelicals both quote him because his work is impeccable.

D) So what is the reason for a tsunami that wipes out 100,000 people??

Or even better than that. What is the purpose In Some one who falls down a well and is never missed or noticed missing. Who spends 4 days slowly dying???

I think it all goes back to the quote..

“God can be all powerful or he can be all good. He cannot be both.”

There is no growth in that.. there is no lesson learned..

Why would an omnipotent good god need to make people suffer without a chance for growth???

edit on 16-4-2018 by JoshuaCox because: (no reason given)

posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 09:25 PM

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: Raggedyman

An interesting thread regarding Erhman.
I have referred to him often. And regard
his academic persona as a front. I have
to question the public image he portrays.
Loss of faith, turned atheist, but will not
deny Christ? With the reasons given as
we see here arguable at best? The
suffering and evil in the world got him
all hung up? When even I can site reason?
And recognise it's on us not him as layed
in an easily understood account in Genesis?
God himself incarnates putting himself at
the mercy of carnel knowledge to suffer
with us and a scholar lacks understanding
that? And this guy doesn't just affirm
Christs existence. He regards the crucifixion
as undeniable as well. All that but no faith?
Or is he avoiding ridicule in an academic
world over run by secularism?

You are right, Ehrman doesn't sound like he has understood the basic concepts
Yes even I can give reason as to suffering
Still he has also said that the bible is not perfect and that means God Cant be

posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 10:19 PM
a reply to: JoshuaCox

God can be all powerful or he can be all good. He cannot be both.

I see people do this everyday and
i' m always left wondering. Do you
even realise that nonsense Is a lousy
argument? Lol

Definition of God. 1 capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: such as. a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe

So change the definition of God to suit yourself ?
Whatever you gotta do Pal.

So what is the reason for a tsunami that wipes out 100,000 people?? 

An act of God? Or is that just what it's
called in a world that wants to blame him
for everything? Every argument you can
think of is really just a load a crap.

Why would people blame an omnlpotent God
who is good enough to honor our request to
leave us alone.? To let us live without him so
we can live without his laws and his counsel?
How is that not gonna backfire?
edit on Rpm41618v05201800000021 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 11:24 PM
a reply to: randyvs

A) did you add that good part yourself ? Lol

in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being. synonyms: the Lord, the Almighty, the Creator, the Maker, the Godhead; More 2. (in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity. "a moon god"

Because just the regular definition one might google doesn’t say good.

The Christian god. Is only the only god in a Christians head lol..

B) if your omnipotent. You get all the blame and credit lol..


Your making all the decisions.. your the one deciding to allow all the atrocities that are common place..

C) that is erhman’s reasoning anyway. Not my own..

My own reason for not believing religion is..

1) the Bible got EVERY testable historical claim wrong..

There was no global flood .. it would have left a mark..

7 day creation is a joke..

There was no genetic bottle kneck from Noah. Where his family incested humanity into existence..

2) there is not one single example of a prayer, spell or what have you . that works well enough to be tested..

3) there is no statistical difference between Christianity and any other religion... and there should be I think.. assuming they were the only ones with the right god..

4) the NT Bible isn’t “the word of god”.. it is multiple accounts of multiple people about the life and return of jesus..

Multiple accounts that don’t agree...

Some thought one thing.. some thought others..

Pretending like we know the truth is laughable.

5) Christianity ruled western society for a thousand years as it’s de facto king and advancement stagnated. The second science and agnosticism pops up. We go to the moon in a centuries....

posted on Apr, 17 2018 @ 12:57 AM
a reply to: JoshuaCox

Because just the regular definition one might google doesn’t say good. 

Oh hell dude! Okay you got me!
How did you ever know? Are you a mentalist?
Or is that the one that came up on my

Don't believe in religion? Hell I
don't believe in religion and last
I remember Jesus was pretty upset
with religion and God doesn't have
any recommended religion his
ownself. But if you don't believe in
a Creator? That's fine, unless you try
to rationalize that hokey atheist
belief in nothing. As if it isn't far more
ri God damn diculous in every way
completely across the universe.
And either way a person with
your intelligence couldn't just appear
out of no where for no purpose by reason
of luck to the power of infinity. And even if
you try to make creation look more
perposterous than that? I still see you as
the only proof I need for Creation.
And there certainly isn' t a shortage of
people like yourself.

posted on Apr, 18 2018 @ 07:24 PM
a reply to: JoshuaCox

“God can be all powerful or he can be all good. He cannot be both.” There is no growth in that.. there is no lesson learned.. Why would an omnipotent good god need to make people suffer without a chance for growth???

God is all powerful and He is Good and yes He can be both. The entire purpose of creation is to eventually have a family of Love. Everything that is created in this universe will eventually die and actually it does not matter when or how each and everyone of us will die. Even the very hand picked apostles met deaths that were not very pretty at all. There is no free pass given to any of us.

Bart Ehrman had the same problem that most people have and that is that he could not understand the message of Jesus. He believed that he could make a deal with God and it does not work that way at all. Most people seem to come to the false teachings that one can do this and God will do that or if God does this for me then I will do that for God. Or even the teachings that God is all love and He will not punish me for doing this or that and then it develops into the idea that there is no hell and the scriptures that say this are corrupt. All that hell stuff is B.S. to keep people in line, bla bla bla---

Actually people do not want God to set any rules and regulations to interfere with their lives. That is the problem and will always be the problem. It has always been the problem and most all people will put it out of their minds till that day and hour and minute comes to draw that last breath. Then most all will want to know how things really work. Jesus said that if you cannot believe Moses and the prophets then you cannot believe His message. Bart Ehrman is a very confused man and in my opinion a real good book salesman.

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