May loses Commons Brexit Vote

originally posted by: Krakatoa
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You were duped back in the 70's by being convinced to join the Common Market. That was the first step towards being manipulated by the socialist monster now known as the European Union. That was their plan all along....I remember seeing it then, and I remember the U.S. being "courted" to join as well.

Born in '77 mate so I wasn't old enough to be duped.

I don't know how my parents voted that time.

a reply to: seeker1963

Not quite... As a sovereign nation, Parliament gets to vote on pretty much any change to our fundamental laws. Brexit is just such a change.

What has happened here is our sovereignty has actually "prevented" the Prime Minister from amending laws without the approval of Parliament (which, if had been allowed to go ahead would have given the current PM the right to change any law of her choosing or (and OK, this is pushing it) to get rid of any democracy at all and install a dictatorship.

This is a quirk of British Law, however many Brexiteers forget that we are already a sovereign nation and always will be unless someone removes that bit of law and ironically it is that bit of law that today allowed the house to vote against the government.

So, on the surface it's democracy getting in the way of a democracy...

On a deeper level, it's the one bit of the law that stops the UK being ruled by anyone else or indeed stops any one party from becoming an unelected dictatorship like North Korea.

This is something that was mentioned a lot before the referendum but was buried in all the lies from both the remain and the leave side...

originally posted by: justwokeup
A gigantic and resounding 'screw you' to every one of the 17 million that voted for Brexit. I bet those Brexit Labour voters feel pretty mugged right about now.

No... that was our sovereignty actually in action. You can't have a democratic referendum and NOT have a change to the law as a result passed through parliament without a vote.

That is how our sovereignty works... If you remove the right for the house to vote, then you have to remove our sovereignty.

Why is it many people do not understand this? It is what stops any one party or prime minister from doing something stupid like actually removing everyone's right to vote.

It seems Brexiteers only 'want democracy' when it suits them... As for getting our sovereignty back - we never lost it in the first place as any change even the EU make can be overruled by parliament, and always could... just the elected parties mostly vote in favour of laws presented by the EU...

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK
It's pretty telling that the only people pretending that our elected representatives in the house of commons should have ultimate power, are those for whom forcing the country to remain within the fabric of the EU is their primary goal.


On a side note, I think we might well see the government lose a confidence vote early in the New year and we will get another General Election shortly after.

Who do you want to make the decision, May?

This isn't about who "makes the decision" and you know it.
It's about diluting Brexit to such an extent that, despite the referendum result we will, to all intents and purposes remain a vassal state of the EU.

I get that you didn't like the way the result went, just as you didn't like the remain side winning in the Scot indy ref.

To me this all just confirms two things.

1,The apparatus of government absolutely does not want us plebes having any meaningful say in how things are run and
2, The country has far too many morons who would rather be well fed slaves than free people.

The vote was to leave and we are leaving. Who do you want to decide the terms?

The terms, you say? Oh, you mean the ones that will inevitably prevent us from doing our own trade deals? Restricting labour movement? Having to accept commission judgements and suchlike?

Because that is what you are talking about, all the guff about it being "democracy" comes from the people that want to usurp the ultimate expression of democracy, a plebiscite. In other words, don't pee down my leg and tell me it's raining mate, have a bit of respect eh? You know as well as the rest of us, this is one more play in the pro EU lobby to prevent the UK government delivering true independence from Europe and, while you are congratulating yourselves over this, ask the question "what else might they seek to undermine and derail in the future?"

originally posted by: justwokeup
So you agree then that UK parliament as a whole should always trump referendum results?

You've got no evidence of such a thing, I know it's a conspiracy site but that doesn't mean you can spout a conspiracy and have it believed, whether the idea is your own or another's.

I believe the people we voted to act upon politics should have some oversight to this process, it should be democratic in process (demonstrated just recently) and the terms shouldn't be dictated to us by the EU, this incompetent government or anybody else.

We are leaving the EU. The EU itself is fairly clear on this too.

originally posted by: Mikeapollo

It seems Brexiteers only 'want democracy' when it suits them... As for getting our sovereignty back - we never lost it in the first place as any change even the EU make can be overruled by parliament, and always could... just the elected parties mostly vote in favour of laws presented by the EU...

Yeah bur a lot of the leave voters weren't going to let sully little facts like this stop them in their valiant quest to save Great Britain from the evils of a tyrannical E.U....

The Daily Mail is raging this morning. That tells me someone Voted with their conscience for a change.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
The Daily Mail is raging this morning. That tells me someone Voted with their conscience for a change.

Any day when that loathsome rag rages about anything Breexit-related is a good day.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
The Daily Mail is raging this morning. That tells me someone Voted with their conscience for a change.

MP's voting for more Europe are voting with their wallets.

originally posted by: seeker1963

originally posted by: Jiggly
dont have much knowledge about eu stuff... can someone explain what this means? and if its good or bad?

Guessing you are a US citizen?
Imagine our government giving up our sovereignty to the United Nations to create our laws.
That is what the UK government cronies did when they gave up their laws and sovereignty to the EU.....

Except that's a lie largely created by Boris Johnson and the UKIP party.

The UK has always had sovereignty Always had control over our borders. Always had control over our laws.


What happened was the EU created EU wide laws to facilitate open trade. And we aligned ourselves with those laws in order to have open free trade.

These laws were all very good things about workers rights, employment rights, safety standards, quality controls, etc.


This was painted by elements of the far-right as being an example of how we'd lost control of our own country, and we had to take control back. Which is a lie and an illusion.

Which is part of why Brexit is now such a mess, because people were sold a lie, and now politicians are scrambling to find some way to find a 'solution' to a problem that never existed.

a reply to: Painterz

Unless, maybe, the real reason you voted for Brexit is just because you're a racist and you want immigrants out.

Which would be massive ignorance as most immigrants from the EU are white. A hard brexit would have been a good idea with a plan behind it, not based of #talk and lies of politicians...

Instead, now its the biggest mess in a long time...

Your opinion is somewhat trumped by all the remoaner on twitter crowing what a victory this is for thwarting Brexit.

This is all transparent, we see what's happening and why. The vote was held and should be implemented by the government as was stated before the vote.

It's being undermined before our very eyes.

a reply to: CulturalResilience

Strong And Stable

a reply to: justwokeup

Yeah?

Well they probably don't have a clue what they are talking about, neither do I for that matter when it comes to the legal process of article 50.

It says nothing about changing your mind, it seems the process must be completed, the time period can be extended, negotiations can have no conclusion but I've seen nothing of "cancellation of the process" so I'm guessing we're leaving.

We'd have to reapply too.

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK
It's pretty telling that the only people pretending that our elected representatives in the house of commons should have ultimate power, are those for whom forcing the country to remain within the fabric of the EU is their primary goal.


On a side note, I think we might well see the government lose a confidence vote early in the New year and we will get another General Election shortly after.

Who do you want to make the decision, May?

This isn't about who "makes the decision" and you know it.
It's about diluting Brexit to such an extent that, despite the referendum result we will, to all intents and purposes remain a vassal state of the EU.

I get that you didn't like the way the result went, just as you didn't like the remain side winning in the Scot indy ref.

To me this all just confirms two things.

1,The apparatus of government absolutely does not want us plebes having any meaningful say in how things are run and
2, The country has far too many morons who would rather be well fed slaves than free people.

The vote was to leave and we are leaving. Who do you want to decide the terms?

The terms, you say? Oh, you mean the ones that will inevitably prevent us from doing our own trade deals? Restricting labour movement? Having to accept commission judgements and suchlike?

Because that is what you are talking about, all the guff about it being "democracy" comes from the people that want to usurp the ultimate expression of democracy, a plebiscite. In other words, don't pee down my leg and tell me it's raining mate, have a bit of respect eh? You know as well as the rest of us, this is one more play in the pro EU lobby to prevent the UK government delivering true independence from Europe and, while you are congratulating yourselves over this, ask the question "what else might they seek to undermine and derail in the future?"

The vote was about leaving the EU. We are leaving the EU.

I don't remember any referendum on what the terms of leaving should be and the idea that we can leave a 40 year economic and political union without negotiation is ludicrous.

It is appallingly anti democratic to suggest that parliament shouldn't have a vote on the final agreement.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK
It's pretty telling that the only people pretending that our elected representatives in the house of commons should have ultimate power, are those for whom forcing the country to remain within the fabric of the EU is their primary goal.


On a side note, I think we might well see the government lose a confidence vote early in the New year and we will get another General Election shortly after.

Who do you want to make the decision, May?

This isn't about who "makes the decision" and you know it.
It's about diluting Brexit to such an extent that, despite the referendum result we will, to all intents and purposes remain a vassal state of the EU.

I get that you didn't like the way the result went, just as you didn't like the remain side winning in the Scot indy ref.

To me this all just confirms two things.

1,The apparatus of government absolutely does not want us plebes having any meaningful say in how things are run and
2, The country has far too many morons who would rather be well fed slaves than free people.

The vote was to leave and we are leaving. Who do you want to decide the terms?

The terms, you say? Oh, you mean the ones that will inevitably prevent us from doing our own trade deals? Restricting labour movement? Having to accept commission judgements and suchlike?

Because that is what you are talking about, all the guff about it being "democracy" comes from the people that want to usurp the ultimate expression of democracy, a plebiscite. In other words, don't pee down my leg and tell me it's raining mate, have a bit of respect eh? You know as well as the rest of us, this is one more play in the pro EU lobby to prevent the UK government delivering true independence from Europe and, while you are congratulating yourselves over this, ask the question "what else might they seek to undermine and derail in the future?"

The vote was about leaving the EU. We are leaving the EU.

I don't remember any referendum on what the terms of leaving should be and the idea that we can leave a 40 year economic and political union without negotiation is ludicrous.

It is appallingly anti democratic to suggest that parliament shouldn't have a vote on the final agreement.

oh you are saying its raining again.

At least we all know that when you Scots win an indy ref, you will be happy with all the VAT rates on goods in Scotland being set in Westminster.
Your border rules set by Westminster, sending a nice little lump of treasure every year to Westminster, Letting Westminster set all your laws pertaining to trade etc, which other countries you are allowed to have relations with and all that guff. Cos you will be independent, right? by the same measure you are trying to apply to the Brexit ref.