Guns & Mental Health Debate HERE .

I thought about responding, but fkit what's the point, the same ol circular arguments while nothing gets done tired hearing ppl lie about regrets and prayers..they could give a good gwad damn! most don't even know these ppl.. So I give up!!!...America just isn't ready and will never be...

I'm massively conflicted by the gun debate in America; on the one hand it's bonkers that everyone feels they need a gun to stay safe, on the other if everyone has one i'd want one as well. Throw things into the mix such as poor mental health checks and the like and it becomes even more confusing to my simple little brain.

I give up my protection yet someone who is mentally unwell and successfully flying under the radar keeps their weapons and starts to think my family are a danger to them.

Do pro gun owning American's not consider the USA a safe country to live in?

As a tourist would I be at risk in the states if I were to travel about without a firearm?

I genuinely couldn't imagine being so on edge that I'd need to be 'armed' to feel safe even in my own home.

We have our own problems in the UK but if I ever felt like I needed a gun to feel safe i'd be packing my # up and looking for somewhere else to live. I say that but if it had always been that way I most certainly wouldn't feel like leaving just because that's the way it is.

America is #ed and it's only going to get more so, genuinely no idea what can be done apart from nothing and hoping for the best.

I smell a larger conspiracy.

originally posted by: anotherside
I smell a larger conspiracy.

No large conspiracy needed, just the greed of sm arms manufacturers and NRA leadership who acts as their lobby.

the problem with mental health in this instance, it has become an industry to tie any behavior to a mental health issue, and getting 2 doctors to agree on a diagnosis and its impact is kinda like trying to find 2 lawyers to agree on the tax code.

So how do you decide which are real dangers and which are not.

Then how are you going to change the HIPPA laws to allow non medical personnel to have access to a persons medical history.

how do you prevent feel good ultimately useless laws that paint all mental health problems in the same light.

I don't know if this will be considered off topic, and if so a Mod can remove this post, but should we not be interested in what enables us to kill each other in the first place? It is a very fundamental question, which might shed more light on what might, or might not, contribute to people killing other people (either in a mass shooting, or otherwise).

Some of you might remember that the US Army in the wake of WW2 condicted a study which showed that the ratio of shots fired when compared to the ratio of enemy casualties, was very much off.

When S.L.A. Marshall, who conducted the study, found that most soldiers did not aim to hit enemy soldiers. This was not only a problem for the US army and other services, but also for other allies.

After this the US Army did important changes in order to improve the shot to hit ratio. The changes were small, but effective:

- They started to use human shaped targets in stead of bullseye type targets
- They went from single fire to rapid fire exercises

KIllology

The point of this is to internalize an automatic response that would allow a soldier to shoot another human being without thinking about it, almost automatically.

Another thing that was stressed was that the soldier, when shooting at another human being, was doing it for the rest of the "group". Meaning his fellow soldiers in a kill or be killed scenario, which is what a war is of course.

WIth this there was, allegedly, a significant improvement in hit ratio. And, some researcheres have pointed out, a significant rise in PTSD for veterans.

Now, much of this is debated, but I think it is very much where we need to look if we are going to get to the bottom of what is causing people to kill other people. For most people, including most people with some form of mental disorder, killing another human being is a repulsive act. This repulsion needs to be overcome if one is to carry out such an act.

From what I have read on this subject these strategies seems to be the most prevalent:

- Desensitization to violence and killing Wikipedia link
- Dehumanization of the victim Wikipedia link
- Collective / group thinking. The idea that you are killing to save the group (your buddies, family etc)
- Appeal to higher authority (Religion, chain of command)
- Self preservation

Now, if we are to understand why people do things like what happens in mass shooting, maybe we need to start looking at what it is in the world that promote the factors that actually lowers the barriers to killing other people.

What in our society is desensitizing people to acts of violence and killing, if any?
What is contributing to dehumanizing some humans in the eyes of others, if any?
What is contributing to group thinking, and can this be a factor here?
What higher authority can be found that motivates this kind of behaviour?

When it comes to self preservation (kill or be killed type scenarios) I am not certain how relevant this is.

Maybe if we could calmly, and reasonably, discuss this we might come up with something useful that is relevant to why these things happen.

Can this be somehow on the right track?

BT

I'm a 2nd Amendment supporter all the way. But the single commonality behind all of these events is underlying mental illness. I get the argument that the mentally ill have a right to protect themselves. Do convicts have a right to defend themselves as well? They're people too. How about the blind? Should they be allowed to own a gun? Should a blind person be given a driver's license? It's easiest to place the blame on some inanimate object. Mental illness is too hard to deal with. Likely, the best solution is creating a database for mental health. We have a great deal of information as to what conditions/medications are most correlated to these kinds of violence. When an individual is assessed as falling into one of these groups s/he is entered into that database. Prior to a gun purchase they are run against that database. If a person is disqualified they can appeal to be removed with proper documentation. Will it catch everyone? No. Is it better than the fantasy of removing every single gun, knife, etc. from the entire population? I believe so.

www.nap.edu... this is a hell of a long read with many chapters and dozens of dozens of pages but may be of intrest to some members as ive never seen a source this detailed before

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

originally posted by: 3daysgone
a reply to: khnum

Another problem is that this guy had 1600 rounds of ammunition,perhaps stricter control here is needed.

If your not allowed as much rounds as you want, how are you going to protect yourself from a tyranical government?

If your asking a question like that, you need more training.




How will your guns protect you from a tyrannical government who use tanks and remote control drones?

The mentally ill have the right to protect themselves too

NO, the lives of everyone else collectively is more important.

a reply to: 3daysgone

Huh? So what training can you do that teaches you to take down a tank with say an assault rifle?

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: 3daysgone

Huh? So what training can you do that teaches you to take down a tank with say an assault rifle?

Establishing an ambush that forces the crew to exit the tank.
Creating an improvised explosive that is detonated by gunshot.

A lot depends on the type of tank as well as the rifle in question.

a reply to: Xcathdra

OK I will pay that answer, now what do you do when they send a drone to take you out for blowing up one of their tanks?

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: 3daysgone

Huh? So what training can you do that teaches you to take down a tank with say an assault rifle?

Training in Strategics is the greatest offense and defense. Training in Tactics helps you carry out the plan.

a reply to: 3daysgone

Do you think that the military personnel that will be hunting you down have more training or less training than yourself?

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: 3daysgone

Do you think that the military personnel that will be hunting you down have more training or less training than yourself?

Some yes. Some no.

a reply to: 3daysgone

I guess you had better get out there and train some more then, just in case they send someone with more training than you have.

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: 3daysgone

I guess you had better get out there and train some more then, just in case they send someone with more training than you have.

You asked what kind of training would it take. I told you. Why are you making it about me? I don't plan on fighting at all.

a reply to: 3daysgone

The questions I'm asking are ridiculous, thinking that a little training and some guns will protect you from a tryranical government is laughable .

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: 3daysgone

The questions I'm asking are ridiculous, thinking that a little training and some guns will protect you from a tryranical government is laughable .

Yeah? Tell that to the people who fought in the American revolution.