Your false comparisons with Confederate Statues.

originally posted by: fiverx313

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: fiverx313

My children and grandchildren will know that I stood against censorship and was for freedom of speech.

incitement is not protected speech, unfortunately.

So speech that triggers, should be banned?

I agree and I dont have a dog in this fight, Im scottish.

What I do notice is that Alt-right just for the sake a name, turn out in street clothes. T-shirt jeans whatever and do their thing. While the Antifa people dress like some kinda ninja gang, with faces covered etc.

To an outsider it comes across as being not that committed to their cause, why hide your identity if your 100% behind it?
A faceless, identically dressed swarm looks like your using anonimity to go bananas for kicks! I bet you dont look like that on the bus going home, by yourself and no ninjas in sight!

If you have a point...put it across....dont hide in the middle of a crowd, or attack some store while the cops are busy beating up your mates. Whatever pseudo-facts sheep spout on YouChoob say, theres probably many more honest decent people of whatever colour and of both opinions, face in hands who cant believe this is going on!
a reply to: seasonal

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: VictorVonDoom

I assume your eluding to the fact the North had no desire to end slavery...


That just makes the confederacy stupid traitors, since they rebelled over something that was NOT about to happen...

As I said in one of these posts..

It was really a very specific group of elite southern slave owners who predicted abolition and hyped everyone to rebel..

It makes both sides seem pretty stupid. One side fighting about one thing and the other side fighting about something else, with hundreds of thousands of casualties and millions in damage. And nobody thought to ask the other side, "Hey, what are we fighting about? Oh, we don't care about that. Let's all go home."

With that level of stupidity going on in the 1860s, it's a wonder they knew which end of the rifle the bayonet went on.

originally posted by: fiverx313

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: fiverx313

History doesn't have sides. It simply is.

Trying to tell us you know the future is simply another way of trying to tell us to

already because you don't want to consider anything someone else might have to say.

not at all, talk all you want. you can be as wrong as you want to be.

One could say the same about you.

a reply to: VictorVonDoom

Yes, pretty amazing we're approaching that level of stupidity again.

I used to say we were doing all right until we started beating the crap out of each other in the well of the House, but we did just have a House member shot recently over politics, so I'd say we're reaching critical mass stupidity.

a reply to: fiverx313



That's such a blurry line...and I'm not saying a call to violence should be legal.. but what meets that standard gets tricky..

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: fiverx313



That's such a blurry line...and I'm not saying a call to violence should be legal.. but what meets that standard gets tricky..

So when are you all going to scourge the state of West Virginia? There are something like 50 federal buildings with Robert Byrd's name on them.

a reply to: VictorVonDoom

One side was fighting to maintain the sovereignty of the United States of America..

And the other was fighting to create their own country because "the north is gonna release all your slaves and make your daughters marry them!!"

Which was never gonna happen if the black soldiers hadn't drummed up public sentiment for absolution.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: VictorVonDoom

One side was fighting to maintain the sovereignty of the United States of America..

And the other was fighting to create their own country because "the north is gonna release all your slaves and make your daughters marry them!!"

Which was never gonna happen if the black soldiers hadn't drummed up public sentiment for absolution.

I had to read that a couple of times. I'm assuming that was a typo and you meant abolition because absolution doesn't seem to fit.

I've never heard the "North is going to force your daughters to marry slaves" thing, but I'm just going to assume you have a good source for that and let it be.

Bottom line, you say "One side was fighting to maintain the sovereignty of the United States" and "the other was fighting to create their own country" which makes the war about secession, doesn't it?

a reply to: VictorVonDoom

For sure..

I make the treason argument, not the slavery one..


Treason is WAY MORE cut and dry..

Everyone back then kept slaves.. but only one side were traitors to the old U.S. of A..

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Gosh then why didn't the North simply eradicate every single man, woman, and child in the entire South once the war was done?

I mean really, seems pretty cut and dried. The Constitutional penalty there is death for treason.

To me, it seems pretty clear that more level heads than yours prevailed.

a reply to: Hazardous1408

except they are defending the statues of veterans ,Lincon pardoned all of the members of the CSA and gave them full veteran status so i guess if you like #ting on veterans your ok with this ,throw in the fact some assholes are digging up graves of civil war dead

a reply to: seasonal

so did the native Americans and the Mexicans

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Agreed!

You start a rebellion and you lose then you are, by definition, traitors.

While we are able to have a civilized discussion on this (thank you for that ) there is a point I'd like to make.

I think we would all be better served if we make our judgements of historical figures based on their actions and accomplishments rather than the emotions of the day. Remember Orwell's 1984; the government's view of history could change in a day based on alliances made or broken. Personally, I get suspicious when someone tells me I should hate someone else.

Robert E. Lee was probably the most brilliant military strategist of his time, probably one of the best America has ever produced. Lincoln offered him command of the Union army, Lee chose to side with his home state of Virginia. I think his military genius is worth remembering.

Stonewall Jackson was a brilliant tactician and his courage at the Battle of Manassas is the stuff of military legend. Even though he wound up on the wrong side of history his courage should not be forgotten.

Erwin Rommel was a Nazi, but no one can dispute that he was the master of desert tank warfare. His battles are still studied today.

Werner Von Braun was also a Nazi. He developed weapons for the Third Reich that killed allied soldiers and civilians. After the war, he was welcomed by the US through Operation Paperclip and led the development of the rocket that carried us to the Moon. He was considered a national hero in the US.

On the flip side, just because someone winds up on the right side of history doesn't mean we should forget their deeds.

Tecumseh Sherman's March to the Sea was essentially using a large army to butcher civilians and destroy property. We shouldn't forget that.

Among the scientists brought over in Operation Paperclip were the "doctors" who tortured concentration camp victims. Their names aren't as well known as Von Braun, they were kept pretty quiet and allowed to continue their "research." They shouldn't be forgotten either.

--------

If we want to truly understand who we are, how we got here, and where we are going, we need to recognize all of history. The good and the bad of the Founding Fathers, Ghengis Kahn, Alexander the Great, Hitler, Napoleon, the British Empire, the Pharaohs, all of them. Humans already have suffered too many irreplaceable losses of our history, from the burning of the Library of Alexandria to the conquistador's systematic destruction of Central American culture. Hiding statues and flags to appease the emotions of some people doesn't gain anything for humanity, it's just another loss.

And I find that life is just too short to spend time hating someone long dead.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

The message was not for or about you . You are the type of member on ATS I avoid . There is no discussion with you . enjoy

a reply to: VictorVonDoom

One side fighting for something that is not about to happen , while the AMERICAN side fought to keep their country from being split down the middle...

Boy that's even...

Not..

a reply to: 10uoutlaw

I know it wasn't pointed at me..

You still just claimed someone was falsely accusing people of being racists..

Then you falsely accused someone of being a racist..

BWAHAHAHA

a reply to: VictorVonDoom

I'm always down to have a reasonable conversation, migo.

In fact I rarely reply to those just spouting talking points more than to point out a logical fallacy and move on..


I'm not sure you should get me started on military history as I am a super nerd and will high jack the hell out of this thread if able lol..

But I can't help myself a little bit lol...

I find Lee to have been over rated strategically..

I think it is his sense of honor and accountability that led to his glorification..

Gettysburg was a WAY bigger failure than any military accomplishment he made..and it was literally to quote the man himself "all my fault boys.. it's all my fault.."

And it absolutely was , all his fault..


Nathan bedfird forest was imho the best commander on either side..

But here is the kicker.. being a ridiculously good warrior doesn't mean your a good person..


The confederate monuments are not remembering history.. they are rewriting it..

The monuments don't say " rebelled against their native country and killed tens of thousands of Americans. While maybe being the best Calvert commander the Western Hemisphere ever produced..."

They glorify them like they were not traitors who were hyped up by demagogues...


The civil war was a power play by southern elites trying to take power.. not some states rights bs..

a reply to: ketsuko

Yes because the judges are still out on slavery and marrying off your 12 year old....

History doesn't inherently have a political side, but history ends up proving who was right and wrong..