Senate Leader Mitch McConnell Complains - President Trump Expects Too Much From Us!.

a reply to: Aazadan


BINGO! Donald Trump has always spoken highly of the healthcare systems in other countries. He's visited those countries many, many times. Those that have a combo public/private CHOICE system, seem to be his favorites. I started a thread on this subject a few months ago.

originally posted by: norhoc
a reply to: carewemust


Can you imagine any of us telling our employer "you are expecting too much from us" ? We would be fired and replaced with someone who could do the job, these guys should be fired and replaced by people who can get stuff done.

Especially if that person got hired to do a specific job! Imagine going through round after round of job interview claiming you are going to do X when hired (elected). Then once you get the job, you tell the CEO you can't do it because they are expecting too much! WTF? You'd be out on your azz. Only politicians get away with such nonsense.

a reply to: luthier

Sure but why should you dictate societies values.

Why should society dictate mine, is the real question.

Why should the bible?

It shouldn't. Please show me where I said otherwise.

There is a social contract called the constitution. It says leave your beliefs if they interfere with others liberty at home.

No.

No, no, no, no, no!

The Constitution is not there to force anyone to abandon beliefs. It is there to reinforce everyone's ability to hold to their beliefs. That's where all this goes awry. There is no "separation of church and state" as so many like to keep stating. there is "separation of church from state." State cannot interfere with the church... with individual beliefs. The church is not constrained by the Constitution; government is.

And yet, they do...

People need to learn to compromise for all of society not just personal agendas again.

I agree, but in light of the above quoted statements I have to ask, what is your definition of 'compromise'? It does not mean the same thing as 'bend to the will of others.' It means working together so each side gets something, but neither gets everything. That's not what we have in government today, as is witnessed by the healthcare debate. Each side demands their agenda. Chuck Schumer actually offered to 'come to the table' on healthcare, but if and only if all his demands were met first. That's the opposite of compromise.

Likewise, the Republican Senators appear unable or unwilling to compromise as well. There was a consensus on repealing Obamacare while Obama was President, because they knew their repeal was impotent and would never make it into law. It's different today; the President is itching to sign the bill. So by passing a repeal, some Republican Senators would be compromising their true agenda, and we simply can't have that!

But we do now know who in the Republican party is truly in step with the people and who is not.

Passing a crappy Healthcare bill we can both agree is not a solution. These idiots should have been debating for 7 years.

Oh, I absolutely agree! Well, about everything except it being a healthcare bill... everything so far (except a straight repeal) is an insurance-care bill.

I think Trump actually expected this to happen. I'm sure, with his continual rhetoric about healthcare, he met early on with all the Congressional leadership and asked for a straight repeal and a workable replacement to follow. I'm also sure he was met with scorn and disdain. So he did what I do when someone is messing up and won't listen to me: I step aside, make sure everyone knows I have stepped aside, and let the fools fail. Sometimes that's what it takes to wake people up.

TheRedneck

The bottom line to all this is that the Republicans voted 51 times for a clean repeal of ObamaCare. When the 52nd vote was called, they had to be dragged to the floor of the Senate for it...where they CHOKED!

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: luthier

Sure but why should you dictate societies values.

Why should society dictate mine, is the real question.

Why should the bible?

It shouldn't. Please show me where I said otherwise.

There is a social contract called the constitution. It says leave your beliefs if they interfere with others liberty at home.

No.

No, no, no, no, no!

The Constitution is not there to force anyone to abandon beliefs. It is there to reinforce everyone's ability to hold to their beliefs. That's where all this goes awry. There is no "separation of church and state" as so many like to keep stating. there is "separation of church from state." State cannot interfere with the church... with individual beliefs. The church is not constrained by the Constitution; government is.

And yet, they do...

People need to learn to compromise for all of society not just personal agendas again.

I agree, but in light of the above quoted statements I have to ask, what is your definition of 'compromise'? It does not mean the same thing as 'bend to the will of others.' It means working together so each side gets something, but neither gets everything. That's not what we have in government today, as is witnessed by the healthcare debate. Each side demands their agenda. Chuck Schumer actually offered to 'come to the table' on healthcare, but if and only if all his demands were met first. That's the opposite of compromise.

Likewise, the Republican Senators appear unable or unwilling to compromise as well. There was a consensus on repealing Obamacare while Obama was President, because they knew their repeal was impotent and would never make it into law. It's different today; the President is itching to sign the bill. So by passing a repeal, some Republican Senators would be compromising their true agenda, and we simply can't have that!

But we do now know who in the Republican party is truly in step with the people and who is not.

Passing a crappy Healthcare bill we can both agree is not a solution. These idiots should have been debating for 7 years.

Oh, I absolutely agree! Well, about everything except it being a healthcare bill... everything so far (except a straight repeal) is an insurance-care bill.

I think Trump actually expected this to happen. I'm sure, with his continual rhetoric about healthcare, he met early on with all the Congressional leadership and asked for a straight repeal and a workable replacement to follow. I'm also sure he was met with scorn and disdain. So he did what I do when someone is messing up and won't listen to me: I step aside, make sure everyone knows I have stepped aside, and let the fools fail. Sometimes that's what it takes to wake people up.

TheRedneck

Let me first say I appreciate your willingness to debate and stay calm and get good points across. It's very nice to debate without having to agree and still have respect.


I want to clarify by saying when you go in public you enter a social contract. Let's say you believe gays are terrible people. To be a decent person you have to suck it up and on the street not discriminate based on a personal decision that does not effect individual liberty. This contract means you agree to not stab someone they are not to stab you, but to take it further like our enlightenment founders it also means a courtesy. While at home or in the company of like minded individuals you can hate and make fun of gays all night long.

Religious freedom was very simple. It meant no persecution for beliefs. It in no way meant your beliefs need to be heard and seen.

Several of our founders were religious skeptics.

But off topic. Just wanted to clarify in case I wasn't clear. But I apreciate your respect and look we overlap.

I don't fully blame McConnell though it's partly his leadership. However they had 7 years to debate. And it doesn't have to be in secret for goodness sakes. There may even be a few Americans regular folks they could listen to who have great ideas.

Eta I didn't exaggerate the first part as an opinion I think you hold, but was making a relevant clear example with the discourse.to illustrate the opposite behavior patterns that can compromise while "on the street"

Interesting speculation from the New York Post this evening. President Trump's disgust and public insulting of McConnell could indicate that he's inching closer to abandoning the GOP.

nypost.com...

President Trump is not a dyed-in-the-wool life-long swamp Republican. He wants what is best for the Americans who elected him President. If Republicans suck, leave them. That's EASY!

originally posted by: carewemust
Interesting speculation from the New York Post this evening. President Trump's disgust and public insulting of McConnell could indicate that he's inching closer to abandoning the GOP.

nypost.com...

President Trump is not a dyed-in-the-wool life-long swamp Republican. He wants what is best for the Americans who elected him President. If Republicans suck, leave them. That's EASY!

Trump doesn't give a fudge about the establishment Republicans. Neither do the people who voted for Trump. Trump is more of a third party candidate than he is a Republican. The establishment has been getting slammed on talk radio too. A lot of the conservative pundits/bloggers I follow have no love for McConnell and his crew either.

I really feel like Trump just wants to do what is right and make some positive change. He does not care about the politics of it all.

originally posted by: luthier


Religious freedom was very simple. It meant no persecution for beliefs. It in no way meant your beliefs need to be heard and seen.

Wrong. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

Free exercise thereof. If you want your beliefs to be heard and seen, you have every right. Freedom of religion isn't something that is confined to the privacy of your home, or only in the presence of like-minded individuals.

originally posted by: TruMcCarthy

originally posted by: luthier


Religious freedom was very simple. It meant no persecution for beliefs. It in no way meant your beliefs need to be heard and seen.

Wrong. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

Free exercise thereof. If you want your beliefs to be heard and seen, you have every right. Freedom of religion isn't something that is confined to the privacy of your home, or only in the presence of like-minded individuals.

You are correct to point out I over stated the concept, however it's not exactly true. For instance your church can't demand to have a parish in the public park, and your first amendment rights are also limited to a certain level of civility.

Otherwise I can just make my church of Satan or homosexual church or whatever opposite church and go head to head every day in the town square. This is not what the forefathers meant in any way. They were protecting the right to assemble in their own spaces not agitate society.

The writing of the forefathers is pretty extensive. So are the works from the people they drew from like John Locke, Voltaire, Roseau, etc..


For instance I can't have religious liberty in my church if your screaming at me, I can't have religious liberty if I can't March on the street the same as another,...it's not simply I can bully my ideas if I have a louder voice.

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: carewemust
Interesting speculation from the New York Post this evening. President Trump's disgust and public insulting of McConnell could indicate that he's inching closer to abandoning the GOP.

nypost.com...

President Trump is not a dyed-in-the-wool life-long swamp Republican. He wants what is best for the Americans who elected him President. If Republicans suck, leave them. That's EASY!

Trump doesn't give a fudge about the establishment Republicans. Neither do the people who voted for Trump. Trump is more of a third party candidate than he is a Republican. The establishment has been getting slammed on talk radio too. A lot of the conservative pundits/bloggers I follow have no love for McConnell and his crew either.

I really feel like Trump just wants to do what is right and make some positive change. He does not care about the politics of it all.

Congratulations on your perceptiveness! I can see lobbyists coming to the White House with treasure chests full of promises, favors, and cash. Out of courtesy, President Trump opens the chest, looks inside.. starts laughing...then kicks them the hell out!

I don't hold out hope for finding many House/Senate candidates who would do the same, when approached.

originally posted by: carewemust

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: carewemust
Interesting speculation from the New York Post this evening. President Trump's disgust and public insulting of McConnell could indicate that he's inching closer to abandoning the GOP.

nypost.com...

President Trump is not a dyed-in-the-wool life-long swamp Republican. He wants what is best for the Americans who elected him President. If Republicans suck, leave them. That's EASY!

Trump doesn't give a fudge about the establishment Republicans. Neither do the people who voted for Trump. Trump is more of a third party candidate than he is a Republican. The establishment has been getting slammed on talk radio too. A lot of the conservative pundits/bloggers I follow have no love for McConnell and his crew either.

I really feel like Trump just wants to do what is right and make some positive change. He does not care about the politics of it all.

Congratulations on your perceptiveness! I can see lobbyists coming to the White House with treasure chests full of promises, favors, and cash. Out of courtesy, President Trump opens the chest, looks inside.. starts laughing...then kicks them the hell out!

Right because rich people hate money and they always have enough.

Funny how he hasn't said a word about combating lobbyist yet want to pass any Healthcare bill he can

Wrong paste

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: carewemust

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: carewemust
Interesting speculation from the New York Post this evening. President Trump's disgust and public insulting of McConnell could indicate that he's inching closer to abandoning the GOP.

nypost.com...

President Trump is not a dyed-in-the-wool life-long swamp Republican. He wants what is best for the Americans who elected him President. If Republicans suck, leave them. That's EASY!

Trump doesn't give a fudge about the establishment Republicans. Neither do the people who voted for Trump. Trump is more of a third party candidate than he is a Republican. The establishment has been getting slammed on talk radio too. A lot of the conservative pundits/bloggers I follow have no love for McConnell and his crew either.

I really feel like Trump just wants to do what is right and make some positive change. He does not care about the politics of it all.

Congratulations on your perceptiveness! I can see lobbyists coming to the White House with treasure chests full of promises, favors, and cash. Out of courtesy, President Trump opens the chest, looks inside.. starts laughing...then kicks them the hell out!

Right because rich people hate money and they always have enough.

Funny how he hasn't said a word about combating lobbyist yet want to pass any Healthcare bill he can

Or maybe Dennis Rodman has an ied implant next time..

Sorry, but I'm not really into the "inside baseball" aspects of politics. All I care about is RESULTS.

a reply to: carewemust

Yeah well I am too. I see a lot of gimmicks and arm waiving.

a reply to: luthier

Let me first say I appreciate your willingness to debate and stay calm and get good points across. It's very nice to debate without having to agree and still have respect.

That is indeed becoming rare these days. But I accept your compliment and return it. As long as we can talk civilly, perhaps we can learn to better understand each other.

I want to clarify by saying when you go in public you enter a social contract.

A social contract implies I owe something to others, and that they in turn owe something to me. I disagree with that concept. I have my own belief system, my own core tenets, and my own morality. The opinions of others does not negate my ability to hold those.

Let's say you believe gays are terrible people. To be a decent person you have to suck it up and on the street not discriminate based on a personal decision that does not effect individual liberty.

Well, quite a horrendous suggestion (as you do admit later in your post), but realizing that there are indeed people who hold similar beliefs, I will go with that.

If I held such a notion, and walked down the street where I met someone who acted extremely gay, I would be well within my prerogative to cross the street to avoid them, to avoid eye contact, or refuse to acknowledge them if they spoke to me. I have not harmed them in any substantial manner by doing so. I would be out of line if I began shouting at them, calling them names, or some such action intended to intimidate, harass, or embarrass them. They have the same prerogatives toward me... I am obviously rural,with long hair and a full beard, and I wear a black Stetson. I am far from 'normal' on most street corners, even here. I would consider harassing or intimidating behavior toward me to be a violation of my right to remain secure, so I will not do the same thing to others.

Perhaps you call that a social contract... I call it common sense and basic human respect.

This contract means you agree to not stab someone they are not to stab you, but to take it further like our enlightenment founders it also means a courtesy.

A courtesy cannot be a contract; the two are mutually exclusive. A contract is inviolate, while a courtesy by definition is an action taken out of kindness instead of contractual obligation.

While at home or in the company of like minded individuals you can hate and make fun of gays all night long.

Judging by recent scandals, no,one cannot.

Religious freedom was very simple. It meant no persecution for beliefs. It in no way meant your beliefs need to be heard and seen.

The 1st Amendment freedom of speech says otherwise. It does not specify freedom of secular speech.

I have the right to state my beliefs openly. Others have the right to avoid me if I become an irritant, but not the right to try and stop me from speaking my beliefs. I do not have the right to be heard; that is separate from the right to speak. I can be ignored. I can even be asked to vacate private property. I cannot be stopped from speaking openly in a public location, because I would have to be removed by the government, which is legal action suppressing free speech.

I don't fully blame McConnell though it's partly his leadership. However they had 7 years to debate. And it doesn't have to be in secret for goodness sakes. There may even be a few Americans regular folks they could listen to who have great ideas.

Nor do I; if I had to point the finger of blame at any one person, it would be at John McCain. But McConnell held the reins of power, and one of the duties that come with those reins is that the buck stops right at him. His job was to get legislation passed by his party, and he failed... miserably.

Since you brought up ideas from 'regular folk,' I'll just leave this link...

TheRedneck

a reply to: luthier

Funny how he hasn't said a word about combating lobbyist yet want to pass any Healthcare bill he can

He took action on that his first week. Everyone in the White House has signed a contract prohibiting them from lobbying for five (I think it was five?) years after leaving the administration.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

Yeah and it does nothing. They don't have any power.

His words and guidance say enough. Which have been nothing.

a reply to: TheRedneck

We are derailing but thank you for the link I will check it out.

The social contract was what Jefferson, adams, Washington, etc were studying in philosophy from Roseau and Locke. The constitution is nearly palgerism from two treaties of government philosophically speaking.

The shaping of the Constitution was based on the concept of liberty for all. If you had a society of people bothering others it would not be liberty for all.

Having a right doesn't mean it's the decent thing to do. Which is the real issue with freedom and when people ignore the social contract which is the bare min skeleton and agrweren't that your neighbor isn't going to put a pillow over your head and take your money, you give authority to the government to protect you from this as well in the contract as long as they don't abuse it. Once people start crossing the line it all goes to hell. Like you can just drive a bus through a crowd and disobey the rules everyone is tacitly agreeing to.

I have to ask why should they have voted to continue debate if thy had no plan? Is McCain the bad guy or did he save us from 3 months of exposure that they are flying by the seat of their pants writing it up for insurance agencies?

a reply to: luthier

I tend to think McCain is the bad guy, a closet supporter of Obamacare trying to have his cake and eat it too. I have had serious concerns about him being an actual conservative for some time now. It was is statement during the bailout debates that "George Bush could bail companies out without the Congress" that caused me to refuse to vote for him. If someone thinks that big chair is a throne, they don't need to be parking their hinny in it.

This last action just cemented my already low opinion of him.

I fully expect the result of this fiasco to be something we have yet to see in 2018: the removal of a political party without the institution of the opposing party, by electing more Republicans in the primaries that are, like Trump, far from the establishment mentality.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: luthier

Funny how he hasn't said a word about combating lobbyist yet want to pass any Healthcare bill he can

He took action on that his first week. Everyone in the White House has signed a contract prohibiting them from lobbying for five (I think it was five?) years after leaving the administration.

TheRedneck

Every President does that, Trumps contract was less restrictive than any of his last 10 predecessors.

Personally I think Mc"Con"nell not only looks retarded behind those specs of his he is proving it by his whining. You fool, it's not what Trump expects of you, it is what "we" expect of you. Trump is just the proxy of the anger and frustration building in this nation.

Time to put your big boy britches on McCon. The people are tired of the manipulation and ineffectual actions of our elected members. It's sink or swim time you political smudge of grease.

What do our masters think the middle will do come next election, run to the Democratic side of the fence. After trying to shoe horn us with that Witch?? Really? I think next election when people go vote Democratic or Republican it'll be neither.