France and Germany to develop new European fighter jet

Well, this was pretty much an inevitability, although the French make complicated and difficult bed fellows when it comes to defence programmes as the Germans will now find out. This probably marks the end of early Anglo - French work on combining UCAV programmes (Taranis and nEUROn) - but only after the French have nicked all the British secrets, eh?

Rueters
Telegrapgh
The Drive

Is this really that bad for Britain? What are the British options - forging closer defence alliances with (say) the Japanese who are in a similar boat. Now that would be a meeting of minds. Or, sticking with the Americans where there is already close ties.

a reply to: paraphi

So it will have excellent engineering, but roll over easily.

nEUROn,s had over 100 flights by now and I think BAE has taken Taranis back and playing with it in Auss again.Had a feeling back then when they decided to join up it all would end up in a pile of doodoo.Problem is the time wasted in moving the tech forward and now they are far far behind the USA.

a reply to: paraphi

And How embarrassing.....everything will probably have to be written in English, as that is the only common language between the two of them. Many German words would not translate into French as would French into German.....English is the only Language, with elements of both languages.

I can imagine...de " Einwunderklinenspegielkrupthinderbittameinschaften", German for "Butter my Croissant please", may confuse the French, a little.

originally posted by: paraphi
Well, this was pretty much an inevitability, although the French make complicated and difficult bed fellows when it comes to defence programmes as the Germans will now find out. This probably marks the end of early Anglo - French work on combining UCAV programmes (Taranis and nEUROn) - but only after the French have nicked all the British secrets, eh?

Rueters
Telegrapgh
The Drive

Is this really that bad for Britain? What are the British options - forging closer defence alliances with (say) the Japanese who are in a similar boat. Now that would be a meeting of minds. Or, sticking with the Americans where there is already close ties.

Well, that probably kills what slim hope there was for an F-22 5.5 run. Now the MIC has an even bigger argument in staying ahead of the Euros by going even faster to the two 6th Gen. platforms.

The Brits leaving the EU may play a part in this, as well....punishment.

Well since France and Germany haven't ordered/developed any f35s like the UK has. Both there airforces are becoming a little dated, meaning they do need to upgrade.
By 2020 most top level airforces will be fielding 5th gen fighters while there on 4.5 gen
They'll have some catching up to do and will probable go to 6th gen. I reckon they won't have anything operational till at least 2030 and that's if they get a move on.
Wonder if it'll be carrier capable for the French?
Hope the UK goes back to taranis and see if they can involve a sabre engine. That'd be pretty awesome.

We all know what happens to fighter "development programs." They take a really long time, and with these two involved, you can double it.

They got no choice really. If you think about it. Both country has different tech than Brit or US.

US wouldn't sell F-22 Raptor to anyone.
F-35 is not made to combat aircraft like the Typhoon or Dassault. They are both stuck in 4th Gen.

a reply to: nwtrucker

The "F-22 5.5" was already dead. They announced almost a month ago that the F-22 would not be restarting production.

originally posted by: bluesjr
a reply to: paraphi

So it will have excellent engineering, but roll over easily.

Or...

It will be aesthetically pleasing, and aggressive

Here's a random mix of thoughts. Generally I type as I think so I hope this doesn't appear as a word salad. I am assuming the manned and unmanned aircrafts will be developed at the same time and will be designed to integrated together. This isn't official but it is mentioned in the articles the creator of this thread linked.

Avionics & Sensors:
European MIC has been working on relatively advanced avionics for some time now. Leonardo (Italian) offers AESA radar with GaN T/R modules which are more advanced than GaAs. Rafale also has highly integrated avionics including an AESA, apparently sensor fusion, a system that is somewhat similar to the F-35's DAS (albeit it uses two cameras instead of six, and isn't as highly integrated into of the aircraft, it's used for missile launch detection), and an integrated electronic warfare system.

I don't think anything European comes close to the F-35's HMD (which Elbit manufactures). I wonder if they would attempt to develop their own or simply buy the technology from Elbit (Israeli)? Existing helmets used in Rafale and Eurofighter might be able to be a stepping stone. I would also think that recent advances in VR would help here.

A new datalink system similar to MADL or IFDL would probably be required well to communicate in a stealthy manner, especially to UCAV's. Have they demonstrated this?

Engines:
Eurojet EJ200 and Snecma M88 are fairly high performance and both have growth potential. Of course, M88 is possibly too French for the partnership and the EJ200 has substantial British and Italian portions. Even if the existing engines were suitable, I wonder if they would still go for a new engine just to exclude non-participants. I think variable cycle engines are very unlikely, to my knowledge only the US is heavily investing in R&D for those.

Stealth:
Europe has never fielded an operational stealth aircraft, to my knowledge they have only build prototypes or demonstrator aircraft that are substantially simpler than an actual 5th generation fighter. For example, integrating sensors into a stealth aircraft requires special care. Even external hard points would require special care. Every single hatch, every single seal requires special care. And this must be supportable and cost effective for decades. I think this is the weak point and the demands on stealth are only going to increase as radar systems get better and better. Thus, perhaps the multirole manned aircraft will be significantly less stealthy than the much simpler UCAV.

Unmanned aircraft:
Much talk has been had about the F-35 making 4th generation more lethal which makes the F-35 more lethal (a high-low mix), perhaps the manned aircraft will be the high and the more stealthy unmanned aircraft with some sort of AI will be the low in this case. This is something that nobody publicly has demonstrated. I really think that simply trying to create a European alternative to the F-35 is an extremely poor idea - you cannot out US the US, Europe probably will be behind on variable cycle engines, and avionics. I think a large part of NOT doing this is making the unmanned - manned integration a focal point, as well as avoiding the compromises in the F-35. In terms of military capability, Germany and France can somewhat rely on nations that have acquired the F-35 anyway, after all they are part of NATO.

To illustrate this point, you can see this with Boeing and Airbus. The A350 is larger than the 787 but smaller than the 777. Thus, the short A350 will provide greater payload and range than the stretched versions of the 787 but at higher cost. And the stretched A350 will provide the same passenger capacity of the 777 but at lower cost, but with less payload and range. Everyone wins.

Further, I would also argue that by creating direct competition to the F-35, they would be effect hurting their own national security, unless they are actively trying to reduce US influence in the region. Then again, the US has in some ways been a simultaneous threat and friend to the region, so you never know, it depends on what the goals are of this project, stated or unstated, which, as always, will drive the technical aspect.

Overall:
The hard part about fighter development is that many, often immature, systems have to be integrated together, for multiple services with often with wildly different needs. In the case of the F-35 this caused a huge amount of delays and if the program takes too long, then by the end of it the initial estimates on schedule and cost will be wildly wrong or the world may have changed completely (see Zumwalt class). Another example is the expanded pilot ejection envelope in the F-35, while simultaneously implementing a new HMD. Luckily I think Europe could potentially leverage a lot of existing technology to lower technical risk and develop something quickly. A MADL equivalent and new HMD can be developed, these are merely speed bumps. Stealth is an unknown. I think that if the pitfalls of, in particular, F-35 development, are avoided, an operationally relevant 5th generation aircraft could be developed somewhat quickly.

My point: There exists an opportunity. Of course, they could screw it all up with all the problems with international collaboration or by inadequate funding.

I also hope they don't build partially capable aircraft, then park them when slightly more advanced variants are produced, with an inability to simply upgrade the older aircraft because they are only building the aircraft to sustain there industry. I might be wrong, but I think this was the case for the Typhoon.

It's also possible that, since manned fighter aircraft are so expensive and difficult, this collaboration could result only in the UCAV component, with a common datalink to each country's existing fighters, which results in a similar but less capable mix. Again, depends on what the goals are of the program and how much money they want to spend.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: nwtrucker

The "F-22 5.5" was already dead. They announced almost a month ago that the F-22 would not be restarting production.

Must of missed it....

a reply to: Zaphod58

Your post sparked some thoughts to further the discussion:

I think that advocates for F-22 production restart do so largely because it aligns with their worldview, after all there has been a rise in populist nationalism. Many advocates for restarting seem to be in publications such as The National Interest. Not that there's anything wrong with those views but if you read the "about" section on The National Interest it explains everything you need to know. In addition this is definitely the biggest 'alternative' american or even international world-view at the moment, so any publication or forum that is alternative will quiet likely hold these views or have members with those views. The usual suspects come to mind, including ATS. IMHO, the people who oppose F-22 restart don't tend to be on that side of the political spectrum, don't want a threat to the F-35, or (in my opinion) are simply being realistic.

Not that there hasn't and isn't (past and present) problems with the F-35, the F-35 in particular gets squeezed from this group, as well as those advocating military reform (i.e. POGO), while also being squeezed by the left who generally want to reduce defense spending. Squeezed from all angles even if those groups are in direct contradiction with each other. Even though continuing is (in my opinion) the best option. This is definitely close to what it's like in Australia. Certainly avoiding delays and cost blowouts would help avoid this, but there's always going to be some opposition from different groups of society.

Bringing this back to France and Germany, it's always important to understand what their political, economic, geographic, military, and industrial situation is when considering this topic. This will drive the nature of the program. It's not as simple as "Europe wants to make a high-tech fighter to be competitive with USA". The War Zone is often interesting (although too sensationalist) and too american, half the article was about the F-35 and how the USA intends to operate the F-35. Even my own posts end up like this without myself intending (I'm just beginning to understand how narrow my point of view is). Are there any similar publications purely for Europe and from Europe?

a reply to: paraphi

I think it's hard to say or too early to tell what ramifications this has on the UK. I should try to make my posts directly relevant to the first post in a thread, but I have no idea. Any UK defense publications that are actually good?

I would think Germany has had more insights into aircraft design,especially with UAV,s than France.

originally posted by: C0bzz
Bringing this back to France and Germany, it's always important to understand what their political, economic, geographic, military, and industrial situation is when considering this topic.

You are of course right. The French, like the British, have a strategic interest in preserving domestic capabilities. A French-German collaboration was always on the cards as the Germans will provide the cash. The British on the other hand need to find new partners that will enable industrial and technological independence.

I wonder if the UK is just going to roll into the future with UCAV capabilities. That's where the UK has a tech edge and that is the place where new alliances can be forged. It is also an area where government policy has clearly indicated that independent capability is required.

Roll on Taranis V2, I hope.

I can see the Germans roping up with the Russians at some point down the line., also the French too.Old Poland as was back then has been divided up between them, France and Germany getting the Poles through the EU take over of Poland, Russians slowly getting the other old Poland now known as Ukraine and Belarus. Being honest and realistic about it Russia, Germany and France are all too little on their own these days to compete long term with big populations like USA, India and China, but joining forces together then the three might just be able to compete. They are already linked up with energy supplies and much engineering, raw materials too flows between Russia and the Germans and French. To find an answer to the USA and China they might well develop things together down the line.

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: C0bzz
Bringing this back to France and Germany, it's always important to understand what their political, economic, geographic, military, and industrial situation is when considering this topic.

You are of course right. The French, like the British, have a strategic interest in preserving domestic capabilities. A French-German collaboration was always on the cards as the Germans will provide the cash. The British on the other hand need to find new partners that will enable industrial and technological independence.

I wonder if the UK is just going to roll into the future with UCAV capabilities. That's where the UK has a tech edge and that is the place where new alliances can be forged. It is also an area where government policy has clearly indicated that independent capability is required.

Roll on Taranis V2, I hope.

Of course you are both quite right here. Putting aside the 'tech' for a moment and just looking at the political implications, I feel that the UK has had a 'close call' with this one. Had the UK decided to remain in the EU the new EU Army/Forces would have been declared earlier, the UK having to provide the lions share of the immediate response forces and...

there would have been an insistence on the use of a collaborative project like this to arm those forces. Not only in this field but in arms in general. Germany and France would have demanded that their tanks/trucks/ships/aircraft etc be used thus stifling UK industries or, at the very least, demanding access to their technologies. In my view it is a very clever way of not only controlling the UKs population, through unfettered immigration and free movement of people, but also the economy and technology thus reducing it to a subservient junior member.

It wouldn't take long before the 'EU Courts' demanded that UK industry open its doors to their prying thieving hands and any collaboration they wanted to follow with the US, Aus or India etc would be blown away.

a reply to: paraphi

I think we have got a partner already signed up in regards to manned jet development. The deal we signed with Turkey back in january will keep us involved in the design side even if we don't buy.

www.google.co.uk...

I'd imagine that the UK is looking to go fully unmanned for the next fighter after the f35 has been fully bought and paid for.

Tests on a fighter size sabre engine are now taking place in 2020 instead of the full size skyline. Then there looking at 2022/23 for a test flight on a airframe. If it works as advertised it'll be a really game changer.
With the taranis avionics and stealth, merged with the sabre would be pretty awesome. A stealth, mach 5, intercontinental fighter/bomber capable of carrier operations, let's call it Mosquito II.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Germany is part of NATO. And is also part of the NATO nuclear sharing agreement. NATO (and those nukes) are a deterrence against Russia. Russia also has very different values compared to Western Europe, different geopolitical interests, and at the moment loves to attempt to interfere with the elections in western europe or poison political dissidents in western europe. I can't think of anything less likely - maybe the United States entering a defense partnership with North Korea?

Western Europe also has ~400 million people.

a reply to: paraphi
This is just political point scoring to go along with all the other childish emanations from the EU.