Never trust someone who has found the truth?

a reply to: Revolution9

Are you saying that SCIENCE hasn't provided us with any useful tools for understanding the world then?

I would say that gravity is a pretty solid concept. Understanding inertia and motion plays out a billion times every day when planes don't crash and cars don't run into each other, and hey those aspirins and antibiotics are kinda cool too.

I understand and applaud your basic statement, we should always be open to new and better explanations, I just think you may have overstated the negatives of science JUST a smidge.

originally posted by: NthOther
a reply to: Revolution9

Bob Dylan and Jesus in the same breath?

The times, they are a' changin'.

It hurt me worse to hear that MLK and Bob were ancients

originally posted by: Profusion

In order for that statement to be true, it must be false.

And somewhere in the center of that statement is where we could all be living our lives: in a comfortable chair with resonant paradox watching the amazing sworls of reality all around us.

That can also be expressed in this fashion:

The statement below is true.

The statement above is false.

originally posted by: NthOther

originally posted by: TarzanBeta

If you fall on hard times, find yourself the atheist soup kitchen then.

I actually drove past one the other day. New joint downtown called "Food Stamps".

Bahaha. There are more stipulations at that institution than there are at a Presbyterian lunch.

Rich people are allowed to eat at soup kitchens with the poor and homeless without lying about their status.

a reply to: NthOther

you know nothing about my "distaste for absolutism", don't pretend that you do.

originally posted by: Profusion

originally posted by: Ksihkehe

originally posted by: Profusion

I believe that's a rock solid logical argument. It fits well with my belief ...

Said every person who had beliefs ever.

2 Corinthians 5:7 For we live by faith, not by sight.

Most people's beliefs are not based on logic.

"It fits well with my belief that all we appear to live in slightly different alternative universes simultaneously."

I'm not claiming that statement is truth. I'm claiming that it appears to be truth to me which could mean absolutely nothing, and I admit that. That is not the way most people use the word "belief."

originally posted by: PhyllidaDavenport
Truth is not universal...its far too subjective

In order for that statement to be true, it must be false.

No one's belief is based on logic. Belief is based upon anecdotal evidence. And there is nothing wrong with that. I don't have to prove what I know. You must find out for yourself. My knowing does not necessitate your knowing and vice versa.

Logic can discover truth when used properly, but far too many use logic improperly. As well, far too many haven't seen through the flaws built into the academic framework for logic. As well again, logic is a much slower process than a one-time experience. This coming from a very logical person.

For example, in chess, the most logical human being will work much more slowly to discover black's proper responses to the Ponziani opening, and almost invariably fails if white knows what they're doing. White can read or watch a video and know the sequence and play the moves immediately. Black will lose on time if black is wise enough to see all the traps and yet has never played the line before. That's why the Ponziani opening has been nicknamed by some as white's best trap line against players less than ELO 2000... I would say next to the Evan's Gambit.

Point being, logic is good, but if you're going to base trust on outright discounting those who may very well know something that you do not, you will have a much longer and harder time coming to know any truth.

I can't say that I see much logic in that quote. If I never believe that someone really found the truth how do I know that is even possible to be found? What I am looking for then?
Some people are perpetual seekers, because obviously the seeking is much more interesting and exciting than the destination, or at least we believe so. Others just want to get over with it, get there and finally put it at rest; I belong to the second category.
I don't believe that everyone who "thinks" or "believe" that has found the truth has really found it, I must agree with that. I don't think that the truth can be believed in. There is a relative truth and there is an absolute truth who is true in any place, time and situation. Always and for everyone. That is the truth that I'm looking for.
Whatever truth fits for me but not necessarily for someone else is a relative truth.

I know behind any doubt that there are people who found the truth, the absolute truth. But usually those people are not in a hurry to tell about it; or they find impossible to put it in words. "The Tao that can be named is not Tao". Or even better " those who talk don't know, those who know don't talk".
I talk because I don't know yet, but how on earth I can hope to ever know something if I don't believe it can be known?

a reply to: Profusion

I think the definition of "truth" gets lost on a lot of people. Some think that if they believe strongly enough about something, that idea becomes truth "to them". In reality, truth is never subjective. Reality itself is never subjective, only your interpretations of it can be. In the same way that math is never subjective.

a reply to: WhiteHat

A lot of it depends on what you want to know. Some things are easy to understand, such as simple math. 2+2 = 4 is an objective truth. It is the same for everyone. On the other hand, if i say, " strawberry is the best flavor." That is a subjective truth based on a personal opinion

" strawberry is my favorite flavor " is an objective truth, which is little more than an opinion but that opinion is true.

One must understand these subtle variations when talking about the meaning of truth.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Revolution9

Are you saying that SCIENCE hasn't provided us with any useful tools for understanding the world then?

I would say that gravity is a pretty solid concept. Understanding inertia and motion plays out a billion times every day when planes don't crash and cars don't run into each other, and hey those aspirins and antibiotics are kinda cool too.

I understand and applaud your basic statement, we should always be open to new and better explanations, I just think you may have overstated the negatives of science JUST a smidge.

Only as much as any scientist would tell you about the negatives and deficiencies. I love science. It has brought us wonderful things, yet it might have brought us stuff that is destroying us and going to wipe us out in the future; anyone's guess right now, even the experts.

Nope, gravity is not a "truth". It is finite and a guess. We see what gravity does, but we still don't know what gravity is and why it is. We use a Mathematical formula for it, yet the very Math we use is only an interpretation translated into a language of numbers, with deficits. We know it is do with charges, but what are those charges? Where did they originate? We can't truly quantify them. Even then, there are prison walls of dimensions. We know dark matter is there yet we can't see it or measure it or know what is there on any level, nor even guess. Dark matter exists as much if not much more than light matter.

Gravity doesn't operate in one way. As you know the Moon's gravity is different to the Earth's and Jupiter's. One day there will be no gravity for any as they will all burn up as the Sun explodes, and no more Sun gravity either, or so we suspect. Yet even then we don't know if gravity dies; black holes may be imploded gravity.

"Everything is just for a while".

Math will only make sense as long as there are humans to make sense of it. Alpha Centauri doesn't think much about Math. It just does its thing in a finite way and twinkles as quickly as a little star in its short life.

Years ago in a thread I pointed out deficiencies in Math that Mathematicians are aware of. 3.3333 is hypothetical. A true third of anything can't actually exist in Mathematics. In Math 1/3 of 10 is not quantifiable and can't actually represent a real portion properly (glitches in the matrix). How true is Mathematics?; as true as it can't even quantify a true third.

In life it is possible to split up an object (roughly) into three pieces so they all weigh the same as each other yet Mathematics can't represent that. Numbers of mankind: They only relate to humans and our consciousness; man made language like French or German.

Language is not truth or else "you" would be "you" and not "vous".

What I am saying is not true. As we all should realize it is even impossible to truly split anything into three equal pieces. There is no end to how small things get as well as no end to how big. We don't even know the smallest components and even they will not be the smallest. So how can we attempt to measure accurately in terms of dividing what we can't truly even see?

That is the Universe I inhabit. It is not quantifiable because my little brain only has a tiny ram and hard disk (about 16GB of Ram and 1 Terabyte of Memory as it stands (lol, my PC). Long ago my brain gave up its throne to the PC and now all it does is make my fingers type a drum rhythm of my own version of the "Fake News Boogie". My eyes don't see like a bee sees. Who's image of the world is the correct one?

Dance, fingers, dance!

I am gonna have to go along with Lewis Carroll and know I jumped down a rabbit hole when I decided to go look!

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: Profusion

I think the definition of "truth" gets lost on a lot of people. Some think that if they believe strongly enough about something, that idea becomes truth "to them". In reality, truth is never subjective. Reality itself is never subjective, only your interpretations of it can be. In the same way that math is never subjective.

Truth isn't subjective. But it's the people who disbelieve those who have experienced and are telling the truth who point at those that know and say, "Truth isn't subjective! If it was true, I'd know it, too!" That is because the people pointing the finger and accusing are actually the ones relying on their subjective truth instead of understanding their own experiences in order to discern the objective truth. There truly is no private interpretation of truth. But there are private experiences for we are individuals. Those that are honest come to truth.

Now none of us are perfect. Sometimes we lack understanding that another honest person can help us to see. But that does not discount our honest, even if limited, understanding of reality.

a reply to: WhiteHat

Whoever said "those who know don't talk" is wrong. Those who know simply know when to talk.

When it is revealed that it is a pointless endeavor, they cease. If someone knows but doesn't talk, then they must not know the consequence of not trying; therefore, at the end of that event, they know less.

a reply to: wheresthebody

Atheists profess to know the secrets of the Universe, without ever having left this rock.

Declaring there is no such thing as spirits or a spirit realm is like determining whats outside in the world or even down the block from inside a windowless room.

originally posted by: wheresthebody
a reply to: NthOther

you know nothing about my "distaste for absolutism", don't pretend that you do.

There are no absolutes, only the next moment of discovery. Thats when you find out the truth abut something.

a reply to: Revolution9

If you have an example of gravity not working in the way that say Newton's equation suggests (what I referred to as "a concept"), you should publish immediately, LOL.

I didn't say that science is "all good" or "altruistic" ... I said it's a series of tools to help us understand the world.

I didn't say that we have no questions left about gravity, what I did suggest was that science has provided useful tools to help us understand and predict things about gravity.

You're just mistaken about gravity working differently for different bodies (earth, moon, Jupiter); it works the same way everywhere, that's why we refer to our understanding as "the law of gravity."

Even when there are no humans to think about it, math will still work the same way.

But aside from those quibbles, what you're saying is basically what OP has said.

We find our own way and can't rely solely on the ways of others.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: wheresthebody

Atheists profess to know the secrets of the Universe, without ever having left this rock.

Declaring there is no such thing as spirits or a spirit realm is like determining whats outside in the world or even down the block from inside a windowless room.

Can you give an example?

originally posted by: Profusion
"Never trust someone who has found the truth, only trust those still searching for it."

Agreed; hence the... "Don't mistake the finger for the moon."

People still sitting around looking at the Buddha 2500ish years later; same with Christ 2000ish years later; Muhammad some 1500ish years later...

Sitting listening; sitting talking; sitting paying to listen and talk.

At some point? The teaching has got to be walked, their teaching was a map... like here ya go get a handle on it and get going live it, fail at it, get up try again keep going build the wisdom as direct experience. Waiting for anyone to walk up and go boop got your nose you are done... will never happen like sleeping through class won't wake you up graduated from college one day. Effort must be made, the teacher can't graduate for you either. Since we all have faculties to point and make noise and receive that noise? Everyone is also a teacher, the most irritating teaches one patience each thing seen bad turn around the wisdom coming from it? Good. Easier to not take the lesson and just make oneself also bad... when everyone starts teaching each other patience? It runs out.

But yes ignore those that cannot be taught.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: wheresthebody

Atheists profess to know the secrets of the Universe, without ever having left this rock.

Declaring there is no such thing as spirits or a spirit realm is like determining whats outside in the world or even down the block from inside a windowless room.

Can you give an example?

Can you?

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

There is no point searching for truth if it can't be had. The very act of searching is a profession that truth exists. If it exists, somebody has it. If someone has the truth, then they will not lie and say, "I'm still searching."

As well, there are those who walk their talk. Why judge those who work with those that don't? And if you don't know truth yet, how could you even know what the work looks like?

originally posted by: TarzanBeta

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: Profusion

I think the definition of "truth" gets lost on a lot of people. Some think that if they believe strongly enough about something, that idea becomes truth "to them". In reality, truth is never subjective. Reality itself is never subjective, only your interpretations of it can be. In the same way that math is never subjective.

Truth isn't subjective. But it's the people who disbelieve those who have experienced and are telling the truth who point at those that know and say, "Truth isn't subjective! If it was true, I'd know it, too!" That is because the people pointing the finger and accusing are actually the ones relying on their subjective truth instead of understanding their own experiences in order to discern the objective truth. There truly is no private interpretation of truth. But there are private experiences for we are individuals. Those that are honest come to truth.

Now none of us are perfect. Sometimes we lack understanding that another honest person can help us to see. But that does not discount our honest, even if limited, understanding of reality.

You will have to put this into a real life scenario for it to be interpreted. It is too far removed from any actual event or idea to make any sense of. But it sounds like a reiteration of my post that you quoted.

it's the people who disbelieve those who have experienced and are telling the truth who point at those that know and say,

what do you mean by "experienced"? Because subjective experiences are not to be considered " truth". Like if you experience god in your head every day. That is a subjective experience. Not a truth.

If god visits you every day in the flesh and has coffee and donuts, that is an objective truth. Which Couldbe proven. Even if it is not.