Never trust someone who has found the truth?

originally posted by: intrptr

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: wheresthebody

Atheists profess to know the secrets of the Universe, without ever having left this rock.

Declaring there is no such thing as spirits or a spirit realm is like determining whats outside in the world or even down the block from inside a windowless room.

Can you give an example?

Can you?

You made statements about "atheists" ... can you give an example of any atheist saying what you have claimed they do?

a reply to: Gryphon66

If you have an example of gravity not working in the way that say Newton's equation suggests (what I referred to as "a concept"), you should publish immediately, LOL.

It explains everything fine up to a point.

When there is no more object then gravity will not even exist (or possibly it may exist in another form, which is more what I believe).

Like I said, we know it is there, but we don't know what it is.

We can't quantify it properly and can't tell the truth about it therefore.

You are missing my point.

The only intelligence that can own the truth is the Intelligence that knows forever and the depths and breadth of eternity in all dimensions.

I am being totally metaphysical here, but as far as we humans go our truth is the truth of bacteria on a Petri dish; very very limited according to our brains' capacity to process and to perceive.

a reply to: Woodcarver

You proved my point. You asked for an example and then provided it through yourself.

If I have an experience with God, whether mental or even physical, that does not mean you will be able to know it or believe it. You judge based on your subjective truth that which is objective to me. A subjective experience does not make only a subjective truth.

Example: the lunar astronaut can tell you what it is like to walk on the moon. They experience subjectively an objective truth: the moon can be reached and walked. Most people haven't done this. In your view, if you're not a lunar astronaut, then no one has ever been.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: wheresthebody

Atheists profess to know the secrets of the Universe, without ever having left this rock.

Declaring there is no such thing as spirits or a spirit realm is like determining whats outside in the world or even down the block from inside a windowless room.

What secrets do atheists profess to know? Atheism is not a position of knowledge, it is a position of not accepting a claim by others.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: intrptr

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: wheresthebody

Atheists profess to know the secrets of the Universe, without ever having left this rock.

Declaring there is no such thing as spirits or a spirit realm is like determining whats outside in the world or even down the block from inside a windowless room.

Can you give an example?

Can you?

You made statements about "atheists" ... can you give an example of any atheist saying what you have claimed they do?

No, I made a statement about drawing conclusions based on ignorance.

a reply to: Woodcarver

What secrets do atheists profess to know? Atheism is not a position of knowledge, it is a position of not accepting a claim by others.

Precisely. So how could they know it isn't true, (whatever the claim is)?

originally posted by: TarzanBeta
a reply to: Woodcarver

You proved my point. You asked for an example and then provided it through yourself.

If I have an experience with God, whether mental or even physical, that does not mean you will be able to know it or believe it. You judge based on your subjective truth that which is objective to me. A subjective experience does not make only a subjective truth.

Example: the lunar astronaut can tell you what it is like to walk on the moon. They experience subjectively an objective truth: the moon can be reached and walked. Most people haven't done this. In your view, if you're not a lunar astronaut, then no one has ever been.

you actually messed up your explanation. If an astronaut tells you what it is like to walk on the moon, he is giving you an opinion. If an astronaut says he has walked on the moon, he is telling you an objective truth.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: intrptr

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: wheresthebody

Atheists profess to know the secrets of the Universe, without ever having left this rock.

Declaring there is no such thing as spirits or a spirit realm is like determining whats outside in the world or even down the block from inside a windowless room.

Can you give an example?

Can you?

You made statements about "atheists" ... can you give an example of any atheist saying what you have claimed they do?

You're smart enough to know better. You're egging someone on.

the most prominent arrogant in the world

originally posted by: intrptr

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: intrptr

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: wheresthebody

Atheists profess to know the secrets of the Universe, without ever having left this rock.

Declaring there is no such thing as spirits or a spirit realm is like determining whats outside in the world or even down the block from inside a windowless room.

Can you give an example?

Can you?

You made statements about "atheists" ... can you give an example of any atheist saying what you have claimed they do?

No, I made a statement about drawing conclusions based on ignorance.

No, you did not. Here's what you said that I responded to:

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: wheresthebody

Atheists profess to know the secrets of the Universe, without ever having left this rock.

Declaring there is no such thing as spirits or a spirit realm is like determining whats outside in the world or even down the block from inside a windowless room.

So now, evidence of an atheist saying they know the secrets of the universe? If you don't have that, just state clearly that you don't and let's move on.

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: TarzanBeta
a reply to: Woodcarver

You proved my point. You asked for an example and then provided it through yourself.

If I have an experience with God, whether mental or even physical, that does not mean you will be able to know it or believe it. You judge based on your subjective truth that which is objective to me. A subjective experience does not make only a subjective truth.

Example: the lunar astronaut can tell you what it is like to walk on the moon. They experience subjectively an objective truth: the moon can be reached and walked. Most people haven't done this. In your view, if you're not a lunar astronaut, then no one has ever been.

you actually messed up your explanation. If an astronaut tells you what it is like to walk on the moon, he is giving you an opinion. If an astronaut says he has walked on the moon, he is telling you an objective truth.

Now you're playing word games.

If a lunar astronaut tells you what it's like to walk on the moon, then he implies the objective truth that he has walked on the moon, otherwise he's a liar.

But by your words, let me offer this objective truth to you without the subjective description: I have spoken with God.

Who will you believe if you have neither walked the moon nor talked with God?

It will come down to your own subjective truth, won't it?

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Woodcarver

What secrets do atheists profess to know? Atheism is not a position of knowledge, it is a position of not accepting a claim by others.

Precisely. So how could they know it isn't true, (whatever the claim is)?

I guess I'll say it one more time. Atheist do not make a claim that God does not exist. They just do not believe your claims that a God does exist.

I can make this clear with a simple question. Do you believe that dragons and unicorns exist? If you do not, can you explain why you do not believe this?

originally posted by: TarzanBeta

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: TarzanBeta
a reply to: Woodcarver

You proved my point. You asked for an example and then provided it through yourself.

If I have an experience with God, whether mental or even physical, that does not mean you will be able to know it or believe it. You judge based on your subjective truth that which is objective to me. A subjective experience does not make only a subjective truth.

Example: the lunar astronaut can tell you what it is like to walk on the moon. They experience subjectively an objective truth: the moon can be reached and walked. Most people haven't done this. In your view, if you're not a lunar astronaut, then no one has ever been.

you actually messed up your explanation. If an astronaut tells you what it is like to walk on the moon, he is giving you an opinion. If an astronaut says he has walked on the moon, he is telling you an objective truth.

Now you're playing word games.

If a lunar astronaut tells you what it's like to walk on the moon, then he implies the objective truth that he has walked on the moon, otherwise he's a liar.

But by your words, let me offer this objective truth to you without the subjective description: I have spoken with God.

Who will you believe if you have neither walked the moon nor talked with God?

It will come down to your own subjective truth, won't it?

these are not word games this is a logic puzzle. If an astronaut tells you what it is like to walk on the moon he can only tell you what it is like for him because he does not know what it is like for someone else. If he tells you he has walked on the moon this is an objective truth that can be proven.

Your claim that you speak with God every day cannot be proven because it only happens in your head, therefore making it a subjective event.
if a person says they talk to Elvis every day in their head, you would not give them any credence. Not because it sounds crazy, but because it is unprovable.

originally posted by: TarzanBeta

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: intrptr

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: wheresthebody

Atheists profess to know the secrets of the Universe, without ever having left this rock.

Declaring there is no such thing as spirits or a spirit realm is like determining whats outside in the world or even down the block from inside a windowless room.

Can you give an example?

Can you?

You made statements about "atheists" ... can you give an example of any atheist saying what you have claimed they do?

You're smart enough to know better. You're egging someone on.

the most prominent arrogant in the world

And you're smart enough to know that the person I responded to made a generalized BS claim that they have no backup for.

Stephen Hawking is not making the claim to "understand the secrets of the Universe" (while he has enough credit to make a fair claim if he did.

Here's what he said from your article:

"I use the word, God, in an impersonal sense, like Einstein did, for the laws of nature." After that he was asked: "Do you think humans would one day abandon religion and God?" to which he responded: "The laws of science are sufficient to explain the origin of the universe. It is not necessary to invoke God."

Saying that it is not necessary to invoke a God that is extraneous to the laws of the Universe, is not saying there is no God.

If you have something else, I'd be glad to look at it.

a reply to: TarzanBeta

Just to be clear, you have spoken with God?

Is that the God of Judaeo-Christianity?

And are you saying that you've spoken with God in the way that you're speaking with us?

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Woodcarver

What secrets do atheists profess to know? Atheism is not a position of knowledge, it is a position of not accepting a claim by others.

Precisely. So how could they know it isn't true, (whatever the claim is)?

I guess I'll say it one more time. Atheist do not make a claim that God does not exist. They just do not believe your claims that a God does exist.

I can make this clear with a simple question. Do you believe that dragons and unicorns exist? If you do not, can you explain why you do not believe this?

Have you ever seen dinosaur bones? There were Dragon stories well before the evidence of their existence popped up in the dirt and rock.

With all the animals that have horns and yet their cousins do not, it's not a far stretch to believe there were a line of horses with a horn at some point. I haven't seen it, but it doesn't bother me if they ever were around.

But if you and Gryphon go to my link above - or, hell, have you read A Brief History of Time like I have? The most prominent arrogant in the world, and possibly the most believed, says what you imply has never been said.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: TarzanBeta

Just to be clear, you have spoken with God?

Is that the God of Judaeo-Christianity?

And are you saying that you've spoken with God in the way that you're speaking with us?

"Just to be clear, you're saying you put your feet on that huge rock in the sky that seems totally unreachable to me? Or is it some other rock called the moon that I don't know about?"

What, would you have me repeat myself?

a reply to: Gryphon66

So now, evidence of an atheist saying they know the secrets of the universe? If you don't have that, just state clearly that you don't and let's move on.

Back up, denying there is not something out there is the same as claiming you know the truth.

I stand on how could you know, without ever having left this tiny speck, i.e., "windowless room"?

It goes deeper than that... You don't have to go far to see the next dimension, its all around us right here.

Don't watch this, (its 'scientific')...

a reply to: intrptr

Nice attempt at a diversion.

And thanks for the Sagan video on "Flatland" ... I was a great fan of Cosmos in the day.

We know about the universe because we can see it. I don't have to "go to the moon" to know it is there.

So, you don't have any evidence that any atheist has "claimed to know the secrets of the Universe."

Fair enough.

a reply to: Woodcarver

I guess I'll say it one more time. Atheist do not make a claim that God does not exist. They just do not believe your claims that a God does exist.

I don't believe in a god like religion does. Way to also jump to conclusions. I specifically said spirit realm.

a reply to: Gryphon66

When Stephen says that it is unnecessary to invoke God, that is the same thing as claiming that he thinks he has enough evidence that there is no God. Similar to what intrptr said, in another way, Stephen can't even get out of his wheelchair and he makes the claim that he has enough evidence to satisfy himself that the universe came to be without God.

One can only play word games for so long before the search for truth turns into a politically-styled circular discussion.