BREAKING: Senate confirms DeVos as Education secretary Vice President Pence breaks 50-50 tie

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: InachMarbank
If you have one stay at home parent, and one working parent, schools are a luxury.

The problem with this is that parents aren't education experts. I realize you have certifications and such that you need to get to be a home school parent, but you still don't get the experience. You get to teach each grade once (assuming 1 child) and don't have access to professional evaluation metrics that span years. Furthermore, you're still reliant on the textbook industry to dictate what you teach.

Even with a stay at home parent I think you're better off sending your kid to school, then using your time to actually study their homework with them when they get home.

Agree generally with both statements - it's very unusual for a parent to be proficient in everything from reading to chemistry and calculus. There are a very small number, but the homeschool practice of hiring a tutor is rather expensive and the parent isn't in a position to know if the tutor is good or not (though they know if the kid likes the tutor or doesn't like them.)

Would also add that it's often better for family dynamics if the kids and the parents spend time away from each other. Anger issues are less likely to arise.

originally posted by: JacKatMtn
the problem is, we have funneled more than enough money to education via taxpayer money or the enormous amount of (allegedly allotted funds via Lottery tix sales in my commonwealth VA).. with failing schools...

At some point it isn't the $$$$, It's the system...

The lottery hasn't added anything extra to education budgets. Budgets are fluid, every dollar the lottery earmarks for education is another tax dollar the state sees that it can spend elsewhere while still maintaining the education budget. As a result, lotteries actually fund what the money gets moved to.

The same thing has happened in many other states, where money intended for education gets funneled into other projects. And while school systems are supposed to benefit equally, it's pretty clear that they don't. Even when the money gets to the schools, it may be spent on sports equipment rather than lab equipment.

There needs to be a better system.

originally posted by: Aazadan
Our school system in the US is actually pretty darn good, and in some states could possibly be called the best in the world once you account for how certain nations (mostly Asian) game the system to get better test rankings.

So to throw some words back at you, I think the people who say our schools suck and want various reforms are the ones who are ideologically driven. Some states could learn from other states (Texas and Florida are two that come to mind in dire need of reform), but our better states and even our average states are doing great.

First, thanks for taking the time to write all of that out and giving a coherent response.

But...here's where you and I apparently differ in opinion on the topic: I'm not okay with just being "pretty darn good" with the amount of oversight and tax dollars (federal, state, and local) that are thrown at our education system. For that amount of "investment," as the buzzword seems to be, we should be leading the world. Period. Not to mention that we have all of the technology and ability at our disposal, not to mention a gigantic pool of people who can (and some do) be great teachers.

With a centralized Department of Education, we should not be seeing such disparities between states concerning the quality of education (well, the resultant scores of standardized testing, which is a more accurate way to put it). The reality that some states are ahead and some are behind or average is an indicator that an expensive, overreaching supreme overlord (the DoE) doesn't appear to have much sway as to implementing and enforcing their relatively arbitrary standards.

All of the research that my wife and I have done (and it's exhaustive...we didn't opt to homeschool lightly, nor to continue it every year lightly) shows that the DoE demands an approach to education that is not in the best interest of the individual student, but focused solely (or, at least, disproportionately) on teaching for the test and for the test only. And with that approach in mind, when you take into account that we generally test at a mediocre level on the world stage (especially considering the claimed priority that we put on our public-education system), we are failing our nation's future.

You are obviously able to disagree, but if you truly think that my opinion of the public-education system is based off of ideology, then you are greatly mistaken--and quite honestly, it's a disingenuous generalization to make. In my opinion (and I guess it's just that at this point), people who oppose the way that the DoE has been governing and regulating the public school system do so because of critical thinking (for the most part), but those who apathetically support the system often do so out of an ignorance as to how things are being administered and the overall return on investment. I'm not saying that all who support the current way that the DoE are ignorant/apathetic, but from experience, I know that there are many who are.

a reply to: Annee


I find it a bizarre discussion.

Does our education system need improvement? Hell yes..Always

But Betsy Devos has no qualifications or apparent ability or interest to improve it..She is woefully unqualified.

She does not have the basic knowledge of how our education system is structured.

The questions of whether we need a Ferrari, Pick Up Truck, Mini-van etc? Good and fair questions...

But you do not hire a dress maker to engineer and architect the car for you...

You don't get a conservative solution, you don't get a liberal solution, you don't get new or different or innovative solution...You get 3 wheels beneath a cardboard box painted a pretty color.

originally posted by: Aazadan
The problem with this is that parents aren't education experts. I realize you have certifications and such that you need to get to be a home school parent, but you still don't get the experience. You get to teach each grade once (assuming 1 child) and don't have access to professional evaluation metrics that span years. Furthermore, you're still reliant on the textbook industry to dictate what you teach.

Even with a stay at home parent I think you're better off sending your kid to school, then using your time to actually study their homework with them when they get home.

This is all opinion, to be honest. I know many teachers, and they'll be the first to say that they, and most, if not all of their colleagues, are not education experts, either.

You're interjecting your own opinion on the matter--I guarantee you that my wife, who has homeschooled my son for the past five years (and will be homeschooling my 3-year-old daughter when she's of age)--is more of an expert on how to teach my son, who is an individual human being who learns best one way (which isn't the way that any public school that he has attended teaches). Hell, we even tried putting him back in public school at the beginning of this year (7th grade for him), and it lasted nine days. Nine. And the sad thing is that the administrators were more than willing to work with us on his issues and actually wanted to, but the district (and, by extension, the state and DoEd.) excessively limit the things that they can do for my son.

He is better off at home, with my wife--who IS an expert on teaching him--doing the educating of him. Your opinion that parents who homeschool aren't education experts is based on what, exactly? It sounds like an opinion based on nothing, because if you're comparing them to the average U.S. teacher in the public school system, I challenge your assertion (and understanding of what the homeschooling community has to rely on concerning text books, certifications, and the like [which is dependent upon which state one lives in]).

And the problem with your opinion that it's better to send a child to public schools and then put one's time into just helping with homework is that not all stay-at-home parents (or non-SAH parents) care enough to put forth that effort, as is evident from the conversations that I've had with many teachers from many different school districts. BUT, when it comes to the choice to homeschool, you have a massive majority of parents doing it who truly care and are dedicated to their child(ren)'s education.

I'm uncertain about your understanding of what it takes to properly homeschool a child, but it is neither cheap nor easy, and the amount of dedication necessary to do so well might surprise you, because you seem to have a pretty diluted opinion about homeschooling versus public education.

What exactly is your experience with homeschooling?

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: knowledgehunter0986

And if school didn't teach people how to exist in society, what would you want them to teach? All schooling involves that, whether home schooled or not.

I think your missing the whole point completely. I'm not saying the indoctrination is set to create a bunch of evil demons, but rather condition them to accept their society as normal. If you understood their intentions with the system you would understand it's actually quite nefarious. I keep telling you it's not just the school. It's all of society conditioning to accept said society.

A little research goes a long way, I'm not sure how much more I can say that I haven't already. It's too deep and complex to explain in a few words.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: AboveBoard
Expect a slew of intense legal battles to preserve the integrity of our children's education.

WHAT INTEGRITY!?!?! Seriously man, how much integrity can a system which pumps out as many failures as American schools do and shields the adults responsible for those failures from ANY merit based job expectations have?

You blame the teachers??? You know who the real problem is? The parents who think their little star is special and they'll go on to do amazing things. They instil this so hard into them that they honestly believe it, even if.. especially if they don't deserve it. They let their kids get away with murder. Talking back to teachers, getting into fights, not doing any work, getting high and drunk and screwing like rabbits. Then, when the teacher gives them a failing grade, IT'S SUDDENLY THE TEACHERS FAULT!! How about we tell them the truth. None of them are special to the world at large, most of them will barely make rent. You want schools to be good again? Let's do what we used to. Back the teachers instead of demonizing them!!!

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
With a centralized Department of Education, we should not be seeing such disparities between states concerning the quality of education (well, the resultant scores of standardized testing, which is a more accurate way to put it). The reality that some states are ahead and some are behind or average is an indicator that an expensive, overreaching supreme overlord (the DoE) doesn't appear to have much sway as to implementing and enforcing their relatively arbitrary standards.

Some states are better than others. With a weak Department of Education (and it is currently weak), states can largely guide their own schools. If the DoE were stronger there wouldn't be a large disparity between them, the fact that there is, is proof that education is mostly in the hands of the states right now. I'm not a fan of the Department of Education largely because it's unnecessary bureaucratic bloat and it doesn't actually do anything. It's an agency without a purpose.

All of the research that my wife and I have done (and it's exhaustive...we didn't opt to homeschool lightly, nor to continue it every year lightly) shows that the DoE demands an approach to education that is not in the best interest of the individual student, but focused solely (or, at least, disproportionately) on teaching for the test and for the test only. And with that approach in mind, when you take into account that we generally test at a mediocre level on the world stage (especially considering the claimed priority that we put on our public-education system), we are failing our nation's future.

If you don't teach to the test, what are you supposed to teach towards? I've been hearing the line that schools are teaching to the test for literally my entire life. I don't think it's any better or worse now in that regard. Tests however largely guide education. If you don't teach to what's on the test, how do you measure your effectiveness in what you're teaching towards?

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
This is all opinion, to be honest. I know many teachers, and they'll be the first to say that they, and most, if not all of their colleagues, are not education experts, either.

But they are presumably experts in the subject they're teaching, once you get into the level of school that has teachers for individual subjects. 6th grade and earlier is something of a different animal.

What exactly is your experience with homeschooling?

I was homeschooled for a year with a private tutor (parents had to work, so they couldn't do it) due to medical issues so I've experienced it for my 7th grade year. Other than that, zero direct experience.

a reply to: xuenchen

My daughter attended Catholic grade school, because our inner city public schools suck. 4k a year out of my pocket, while still paying for the public schools....totally worth it to me though. Then the Catholic schools consolidated and we had to look for an alternative.

Ohio has had charter schools for almost twenty years. The state will pay them exactly half of the funding per pupil, that is allocated for public school students. She went to a charter school for 7th and 8th grade. No money out of pocket for me, those two years. And it was great. Even better than the Catholic, as the time not spent on religious studies, went to more science. All her teachers, with very few exceptions were excited about their jobs, and teaching the kids....despite the fact that they only made about half the pay as their public school counterparts.

Then four years of Catholic high school, at 9k a year. Graduated 2nd in her class, and got a 3/4 ride to Notre Dame, graduating cum laude. I would say her two "free" years were both the most key to her success, and crucial to her scholarship money, because they offered AP classes.

There are crappy charters and good ones. But, the crappy ones go out of business. Public schools....no matter how crappy, never do. My city had about ten teachers back then, who were so bad, they had to be literally kept out of the classroom....at 70k+ ( and benefits) but could not be fired, because of union rules.

Mo choice, mo betta, IMO. But, the only people who complain about having more choice, are either afraid or simple. And i feel sorry for their kids.

All these elites who don't like her sent all of their kids to private schools.

Could it be that if public education was made better that their little darlings would be less special?

originally posted by: knowledgehunter0986
I think your missing the whole point completely. I'm not saying the indoctrination is set to create a bunch of evil demons, but rather condition them to accept their society as normal.

And what's the problem with that? Grade school is training to exist in society, nothing more nothing less.

It's like you're pointing out that the sky is blue, and then claiming there's some nefarious plot behind it.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: burntheships

originally posted by: Nyiah

Define WORK in this case, in a schooling setting. What the ever-loving F has she taught, what classes, where, for how long

I doubt her "credentials" could be any worse than a community organizer as POTUS.

Over and over and over again.

Don't bring Bush up when discussing Obama's presidency.

It's all on Obama.

How different when it's on the other foot.

See....that's part of the problem. You still think it is GOP vs Democrats. The GOP main establishment hates the Donald. The Bush/ Clinton crime family has been running roughshod over us for decades.

President the Donald may not turn out to be the greatest thing since sliced bread. But, his service as a wrecking ball for business-as-usual, has already paid his freight. When the war criminals on both sides of the aisle go to jail....well....that would just be gravy.

originally posted by: xuenchen

originally posted by: Indigo5
a reply to: xuenchen


History in the making!!
The first time ever a cabinet nominee was so unpopular and incapable of getting the sufficient votes where the Vice President had to step in to nudge her over the edge!

Truly Historic !!

This is hilarious! They just can't believe that despite the bought refs, the sharp uniforms, and the League's endorsement, they have lost to the Mighty Ducks!

You would think by now, they'd have figured out this double posting glitch....wouldn't you?

a reply to: Aazadan

lf you understood their intentions with the system you would understand it's actually quite nefarious

You conviently left that part out. Please do yourself a favor and enlighten yourself some more on the subject. I'm sure it will open up your eyes..

Your sky analogy is so silly I'm not even sure how to respond.

Is she a terrible pick? Absolutely. Does it matter? Not at all.

Our DOE has been a joke since its inception. Our educational standards are atrocious. So long as the fed is involved in education, nothing will change.

If you don't trust your government (or one of its parties) why allow them to chime in our your childs education?

a reply to: Aazadan

I noticed you haven't gotten many stars, for your excellent analysis. I believe though, that is only due to most people being unaware that nothing is ever static. Mistaking snapshots for an ever evolving dynamic, is always going to land behind the curve.

Everything is a situation.

Should we expect something worse than Common Core?

Because that stuff was counter-intuitive, the kind that makes your mind implode and lowers your IQ.

a reply to: Aazadan

Well....this certainly explains your earlier cogent analysis.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Annee

I am very familiar with the school system. We took our son OUT of school because it sucked so badly.

My public school is great.

My kid, now 9, is high functioning Autistic.

I fought with them on some things, but they were right, and I was wrong.

The mistakes I would have made from my ignorance would have been harmful to him.

That's my experience

I'm glad you have a good one, Annie. Please don't mistake that for the norm though. Millions of kids are being left out. And just about everyone here, including me, is filtering through our individual experiences. I doubt anyone here wants less for kids in general. But, the parents that are not astute enough to figure out how to thread the current system, need a better way to figure out how to proceed....rather than just trusting the government funnel.

Be well.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: ketsuko
So, you like to challenge ideas, but you assume there is only one correct method for a child to learn math?

Sure there is only one correct answer for each problem, but sometimes, a kid understands the calculation process differently.

There's many ways to teach the process, and there's many ways to do the problems. Which way you need to understand depends on how far you go in a mathematics education. If you go far enough it becomes necessary to do it the way Common Core is attempting to teach it.

And isn't that what the whole argument is about? That we don't properly prepare kids for jobs that need math?

My nephew does his computations the old way. He is quick and able to do it very well that way, and since he has ADD, trying to force him to take the time with the patience to complete the new CC methods when he knows the answer at the outset is murder for him. So why should he be punished by losing full credit for producing the right the answer when the kid who produces the full process with the wrong answer will get partial credit?

If the process that important?

If he knows the answer at the outset, he didn't calculate it. He memorized it (like we typically do when teaching times tables). That is not doing math, that's just memorizing common problems. So yes, process matters. Without that process you're just teaching test answers, with the proper process you're teaching the ability to solve problems.

Perhaps that method is only best for bright students then, and not the non-mathheads, for which it is only confusing? Or perhaps train the teachers first?