Question for Christians..

a reply to: MrBlaq

I think it is very easy to paint with broad brushes in this topic. But we should remember that being a follower of Christ is much more than the traditions you follow on Saturday evening or Sunday morning. Your very life - every moment - is to be an act of worship that glorifies God through all decisions you make, words you speak, and actions you take throughout the day. Yes, there are traditions of men that are questionable at best, and as followers of Christ we are called to question those traditions and match them up against Scripture. The very idea of how the mainline denominations hold worship services can be called into question using only Scripture.

However, the point of following Christ is to bring you into - ultimately - a perfect fellowship with God. And it is disingenuous (in my opinion) to simply say that all of X denomination or Y tradition are idolaters; the implication is, then, that all of that denomination will be condemned. However, in Heaven, it is possible there will be people who on Earth had never heard of Jesus of Nazareth, yet sought God and found Him. Christ atoned for all sin for those who believe, not just some sin.

To the point of your OP: Jesus rebuked the Pharisees as has been stated because they were elevating their traditions over God Himself. Moreover, the most condemning aspect of this is found in the "seven woes" in chapter 23 of Matthew; Jesus' main grievance with them in this passage is that their role was to be those who guided the people closer to God. When in fact, they were doing the exact opposite, and they were refusing to change because it jeopardized their status and power.

Will Jesus rebuke Christians? I think it possible, even likely, but I don't pretend to know for certain. The first three chapters of Revelation contain letters where He does just that to most of the 7 churches He speaks to. But I think it's important to remember that it is made clear a Christ-follower's salvation is dependent not upon their adherence to the 10 Commandments, the Law of Moses, or the various commandments of Apostles. It is not even dependent upon the two commandments Jesus Himself said are the most important - love God, love others as you love yourself. It is dependent upon Jesus and your belief that His sacrifice atoned for your sin, whatever that may be.

Are there idolaters in churches? Yes, in all of them would be my guess. But those idolaters who sincerely believe Jesus died to atone for their sin will be forgiven those sins they have committed, period. And they will be granted salvation and eternity with God.

a reply to: PrairieShepherd

God has already spoken and still speaks through His Word concerning this matter.

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. 2 Cor 6:14-17

For those God is calling that promise is still in affect - and touch not the UNCLEAN thing; and I will receive you.
Only way they can stop 'touching' these unclean things, is follow His commandment AND COME OUT.

Unfortunately some are under the impression they can still touch the unclean thing and still follow Christ.
Satan loves that.

a reply to: pthena

I don't really like comparing the validity of what are the New Testament books to make my point but if that is your perspective all I can say is that what I said is confirmably true within the pages of the chosen books.

a reply to: MrBlaq

I think you are confusing salvation with sanctification. You did not become a perfect human being when you first believed in Christ. Nor will you become perfected until you reach Heaven and sin is abolished. You will continue to sin throughout your life; in fact, your very motivations for being obedient to Christ may in fact be sinful.

Now, you may be referring to consistent, unrepentant sin. Yes, this is a problem; a believer who is engaged in such is either being misguided/misled, is not listening to the voice of the Holy Spirit, or is in fact not truly saved. But as believers we don't get to decide which one of those three it is. God knows, and He judges by the intent of heart. If a sincere believer is being misled, the judgment will fall on the person misleading them, for God's justice is perfect.

My point is this: each person's walk with our Lord is their walk. It's not mine and it's not yours. You seem to be getting close to the warnings of "judge ye not lest ye be judged", and "3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" Don't get me wrong - I am not telling you not to call out sin when you see it. But I am telling you that your responsibility to another believer ends at coming alongside the sinning person and helping them see their sin. Your duty to a brother or sister is not to question their salvation or condemn them. You neither know their status with God or have the power to declare the person unsaved. You simply cannot know their heart, but God can, so let Him condemn them at the end of all things if that is their fate. Instead, love them enough to walk beside them.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: deignostian

I would say you missed the mark on that one which surprised me as you usually aren't incorrect in your comments.

Why the deviance from your normal spot on information?

My signature pretty much explains the deviance.

But seriously. You have pitted Revelation(unknown authorship) and Acts(unknown authorship) against a reasonably verified NT author. Even a Gospel only person would easily be able to produce:

Mark 7:14He called all the multitude to himself, and said to them, "Hear me, all of you, and understand. 15There is nothing from outside of the man, that going into him can defile him; but the things which proceed out of the man are those that defile the man. 16If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!"

17When he had entered into a house away from the multitude, his disciples asked him about the parable. 18He said to them, "Are you thus without understanding also? Don't you perceive that whatever goes into the man from outside can't defile him, 19because it doesn't go into his heart, but into his stomach, then into the latrine, thus purifying all foods?"

When I was younger I met very many missionaries who had been to places where primitive animism was the accepted worldview. These missionaries told tales of some very non-Western dishes that they had eaten, even to the extent that those dishes had been part of a ritual ceremony. Their monotheistic minds and hearts were not defiled. They did not become enemies of the Christian deity by eating food.

The story from scripture that they most held in their minds at the time was this:

2 Kings 5:15He returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him; and he said, "See now, I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel. Now therefore, please take a gift from your servant." 16But he said, "As Yahweh lives, before whom I stand, I will receive none." He urged him to take it; but he refused. 17Naaman said, "If not, then, please let there be given to your servant two mules' burden of earth; for your servant will from now on offer neither burnt offering nor sacrifice to other gods, but to Yahweh. 18In this thing may Yahweh pardon your servan: when my master goes into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leans on my hand, and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon. When I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, may Yahweh pardon your servant in this thing." 19He said to him, "Go in peace."

Actually that whole chapter is pretty funny, how the King of Syria first sends a letter to the King of Israel to have his Chief Captain healed of leprosy.

But anyway, if eating can't defile the monotheist than neither can wearing a cross or fish as an emblem of group solidarity (in my opinion).

It's not like I even know anyone who sacrifices a goat to a god or anything but on principle the fact is Jesus called out Pergamum (I think) for doing something that Paul was practically encouraging out of what seems like pure spite from being humiliated by James in Jerusalem.

The fact that it seens trivial today doesn't change the story as told as a whole and Paul was specifically told the 4 easy requirements for being in the Way.

The Holy Spirit was consulted on the matter and made the yoke light for the Greeks and Paul was actively telling people that they were zealous Judaizers who demanded things that they didn't demand. "The circumcision faction" is another term he uses when describing "Men of James" who he despises and calls spies.

And after the council at that, because he wrote about it (council). He calls them mockingly arch or super apostles which sound covetous too me. James was who Paul wanted to be but also hated or was jealous of but didn't have James prestige and I think that drove Paul nuts.

So to teach that one of the 4 codes in the letter , specifically the Idol meat, is for the spiritually weak not only is he going against James lax requirements for the Greeks but also saying that James and the Holy Spirit are spiritually weak.

That is the height of either irony or blasphemy.

Jesus confirms it in Revelation so theo -logically speaking or scripturally speaking Paul is a false apostle and it is beyond reasonably provable.


Arguing from a literal perspective that is what the story tells us. I don't know if it was oversight or a test but Paul was a seperate movement than Jesus and James and just using the power of their name to assert authority on things they'd never authorize.

Consider to Timothy he writes "all of Asia has turned from me."

Jerusalem is in Asia and so are the 7 churches.

a reply to: PrairieShepherd

Your duty to a brother or sister is not to question their salvation or condemn them.

I have no idea where your reading my statements comprehends anyone questioning
another salvation. Also it seems a little hypocritical of you to assume what my duty
might be, seeing you also don't understand my walk with God according to your own
statements.

So I have no idea where your getting all of this. Was there something I said
that convicted you, so now you feel a reason to THINK your silly diatribe
should stop me from telling those God is calling to COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM?

I'll continue to tell them to come out, just as the Lord brought me out through
someone faithful enough to keep speaking/writing.

If you eventually repent and come out, then it's for you, if you don't then it's not.

I wish you well.

a reply to: deignostian

So I'll start a new thread called, You May Just Be a Noahide.

There was a time when it was not uncommon for humans to venerate graven image idols as being “God”.However the vast majority of idol worship is not limited to a graven image like a statue it is about venerating a man made construct ideology which is exactly what the majority of Christianity does with the bible which is far more perverted.Yahoshua addressed this same issue with the ruling Jewish pharisee and saducees when he stated “By their traditions of men the make void the “living” word of the creator God.

The fact is a foundational doctrine of the majority of Christianity is the bible is the living word of God .They subject all authority to the bible as the word of God as if a creator God needed words written in books to communicate when they do not even understand what is written! In other words it is a convoluted mess of the doctrines of men.

This construct of the bible being the word of God is the most perverted of all idols because it deceives those that worship it to be deceivers and idolaters.It is impossible to convince them they are incorrect.They will defend to the death their religious belief and shun reason.They are just as the few pharisee and sadducee except now they are the MANY Yahoshua spoke of.

“Do not be deceived .For MANY will come in my name and say they are christ and deceive many”.

“MANY will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out demons? and in your name done many wonderful works?and then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity”.

This is a central theme of what Yahoshua proclaimed,the blindness deception of the religious.He railed on the present Jewish pharisees and all of the future religious(Christians) for their false religious beliefs when he stated:

“You study[search] the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life yet they are they which testify of me.And you will not come to me, that you might have life.I receive not honor from men.But I know you, that you have not the love of God in you”.

The Jewish religious leaders had made the “scriptures”(the word of God) into an idol(ideology) Christianity has made the bible into a GOD (Jesus the word of God).This is the height of all idolatry yet the believers of this idol can never perceive their blindness because the source of their blindness is what blinds.Yahoshua stated very clearly that this would be the case.

“The disciples came, and said to him, Why do you speak to them in parables?He answered and said to them, Because it is given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.For whosoever has, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever has not, from him shall be taken away even what he has.Therefore speak I to them in parables: because seeing they see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.”

This was the main impetuous of everything Yahoshua proclaimed.The religious are blinded by their religion and have made it into an idol and worship it as their God.Studying scriptures only causes more blindness so the blind continue to follow the blind and both fall into the ditch.

This is the main purpose of Yahoshua(Yahweh..the creator God is deliverance/salvation).ALL of mankind will be delivered of this grave affliction however the religious who believe in a God(which is always a false God) will not have forgiveness(translated from the Greek word aphesis which means freed from bondage) in this age(the physical realm life) nor the next age(Hades the realm of death and imperception).THAT is the GOOD news not some religious claptrap doctrine of men extrapolated from a religious idol.

a reply to: pthena

The Noahide thing is twisted logic.

No Jews or Israelites existed in Noah's time to make them have special laws, 613 I think plus 10 so its just saying that Non-Jews (because Jews are "chosen'') follow the 10 commandments and Jews follow both 10 & 613.

Fortunately Jews don't have a say in the matter of my own code of conduct.

a reply to: deignostian

Let's clarify a bit here. The Acts 15 passage was a concession the council was making because of a practical issue arising between Jewish and Gentile believers. The meat sold in Greek/Roman markets often came from sacrifices to idols. The Jewish believers would have nothing to do with such meat, believing it unclean. The Gentiles on the other hand, didn't care quite so much. This difference was causing strife between the two groups. In order to foster unity in the early church, the council requested that all believers - Jewish and Gentile alike - abstain from idol-sacrificed meat.

In 1 Corinthians 8, Paul explains that in reality, an idol is nothing more than a piece of metal, stone, or wood. It has no life and no power, and therefore the meat sacrificed to it is in fact nothing more than meat. If your faith in Christ is strong enough to recognize this, then go ahead and have the meat. But he also cautions against doing so if by doing so you will lead another believer astray because they are not solid enough in their faith to understand that concept yet.

What Jesus is referring to is different. He mentions the practice in two of the letters in Revelation 2 - Pergamum and Thyatira. But you have to look at the whole section. Both sections are speaking of false teaching, and in both the meat sacrifices are tied to sexual immorality. This is a different situation and requires some historical context. In the early church, there were many places where people tried to mix in pagan rituals. One of these was a practice that arose out of the early communion remembrances, which were entire meals, not just bread and wine. Slowly they evolved into basically parties, and people began bringing in idols and practicing fornication. In the letter to Thyatira, Jesus is rebuking the teaching of one woman He calls Jezebel for doing this, since she was teaching that it was OK for Christians in Thyatira to participate in these "love feasts" and even in the idol sacrifices that started to appear in them. For Pergamum, He rebukes those who follow the teaching of Balak and Balaam, who are OT figures that colluded to send Moabite women into the Israelite camp and seduce them, subsequently persuading them to participate in the idol sacrifices themselves, which earned God's ire.

That's the key difference here: the council is making a concession, asking Gentile believers to abstain from buying meat in the marketplace that pagans - not the believers - had sacrificed in order to promote unity in the church. But Jesus is rebuking the churches in Pergamum and Thyatira for actually participating in the sacrifices and sexual practices.

a reply to: pthena

I think that the Noahide thing is a ploy by the Jews to dominate Christianity and assert their supremacy .

A hoodwink, if you will.

a reply to: deignostian

The Noahide thing is twisted logic.

So put it here.

You May Just Be a Noahide

a reply to: Rex282

The fact is a foundational doctrine of the majority of Christianity is the bible is the living word of God .They subject all authority to the bible as the word of God as if a creator God needed words written in books to communicate when they do not even understand what is written! In other words it is a convoluted mess of the doctrines of men.

Paul prayed that the disciples would receive the spirit of WISDOM AND REVELATION.
Eph 1:17 Eph 3:3

Why would they need such a thing? Don't all they need are the letters he wrote?

This is the sole reason why the majority in Christiandom practice things
contrary to the teachings of Christ. Like WAR and killing their enemies
and the use of graven images

Ever met a Christian who could turn the other cheek when slapped?

It's impossible unless they have the Spirit of God.

Worship God, not the Bible.

a reply to: MrBlaq

Perhaps I misread you, or more likely, drew incorrect conclusions from your previous posts. If that is the case, I apologize - it was not intended as a diatribe. Tone and inflection are next to impossible to convey on a message board such as ATS.

My point was simply to say that while mainline churches have things wrong with them in my opinion, there are real believers in them who will be saved despite what they are doing wrong.

I am glad the Lord continued to pursue you through your mentor. This is a good thing, but also a difficult line to walk and one that must be done prayerfully - your mentor must be a special person.

Honestly I applaud your call to them - I really do. Personally, I have the dream of trying to return to the fellowship and worship Scripture describes in the early churches - for example, in Acts 2. They met in houses, and there was no pastor or bishop or single leader nattering on at the "little people". Worship was led by the Holy Spirit, and was not ritualistic or scripted. They sang hymns together, they didn't just sit and listen to essentially a Christian rock band.

Seems to me that model would be far closer to the way Jesus Himself taught His disciples than what many or most mainline churches do these days.

I also wish you well.

a reply to: PrairieShepherd

for example, in Acts 2. They met in houses, and there was no pastor or bishop or single leader nattering on at the "little people". Worship was led by the Holy Spirit, and was not ritualistic or scripted. They sang hymns together, they didn't just sit and listen to essentially a Christian rock band. Seems to me that model would be far closer to the way Jesus Himself taught His disciples than what many or most mainline churches do these days.

It's still the pattern for those willing to follow it. But the enemy is very clever
and knows how to sow tares among the wheat. I've seen at least 3 house
fellowship groups fall apart.

Thank you so much for the apology.

a reply to: PrairieShepherd

I don't need clarification but thanks anyway. When you know something you know it.


All you did was use a million words and say nothing because I pointed out a conflict that I assure you I understand completely and you ''clarifying" for me was a joke because I didn't fog anything up.

I actually just presented the story honestly instead trying to rationalize.

originally posted by: PrairieShepherd
a reply to: deignostian

Let's clarify a bit here. The Acts 15 passage was a concession the council was making because of a practical issue arising between Jewish and Gentile believers. The meat sold in Greek/Roman markets often came from sacrifices to idols. The Jewish believers would have nothing to do with such meat, believing it unclean. The Gentiles on the other hand, didn't care quite so much. This difference was causing strife between the two groups. In order to foster unity in the early church, the council requested that all believers - Jewish and Gentile alike - abstain from idol-sacrificed meat.

Doesn't change anything I said.

In 1 Corinthians 8, Paul explains that in reality, an idol is nothing more than a piece of metal, stone, or wood. It has no life and no power, and therefore the meat sacrificed to it is in fact nothing more than meat.

Jesus doesn't see it that way.

If your faith in Christ is strong enough to recognize this, then go ahead and have the meat. But he also cautions against doing so if by doing so you will lead another believer astray because they are not solid enough in their faith to understand that concept yet. [/

What Jesus is referring to is different.

No it's the EXACT same thing you are trying to and failing at rationalizing.

He mentions the practice in two of the letters in Revelation 2 - Pergamum and Thyatira. But you have to look at the whole section. Both sections are speaking of false teaching, and in both the meat sacrifices are tied to sexual immorality. This is a different situation and requires some historical context. In the early church, there were many places where people tried to mix in pagan rituals. One of these was a practice that arose out of the early communion remembrances, which were entire meals, not just bread and wine. Slowly they evolved into basically parties, and people began bringing in idols and practicing fornication. In the letter to Thyatira, Jesus is rebuking the teaching of one woman He calls Jezebel for doing this, since she was teaching that it was OK for Christians in Thyatira to participate in these "love feasts" and even in the idol sacrifices that started to appear in them. For Pergamum, He rebukes those who follow the teaching of Balak and Balaam, who are OT figures that colluded to send Moabite women into the Israelite camp and seduce them, subsequently persuading them to participate in the idol sacrifices themselves, which earned God's ire.

Thanks for the story but I knew all this before I made my comment and you are confused. He's talking about exactly what I previously said. Stop eating meat sacrificed to idols because you are being Balaamed.

That's the key difference here: the council is making a concession, asking Gentile believers to abstain from buying meat in the marketplace that pagans - not the believers - had sacrificed in order to promote unity in the church. But Jesus is rebuking the churches in Pergamum and Thyatira for actually participating in the sacrifices and sexual practices.

You call this clarification? You just muddied the waters I left sparkling clean.

shrug

You are entitled to your opinion, of course.

God bless you, deignostian.

originally posted by: PrairieShepherd
shrug

You are entitled to your opinion, of course.

God bless you, deignostian.

Peace be with you.

a reply to: PrairieShepherd

It is not actually a matter of opinion though.

Reiteration of a story, a summary account of what the book says, but not my opinion at all. It's what the book says. You interpret so as not to talk ill of Paul who was guilty of everything I said he was and mostly in his own words.

I interpreted it as the story is told.