Space time has mass? Spacetime and dark matter, one in the same?

Why do I say that space time has mass?

Well, it's affected directly by mass, to cause gravity.
Thus it must have some mass, and therefore some force of gravity as well.



What is this mass of spacetime composed of?


Dark matter. Im gunna say it flat out.

(Wiki on Dark Matter)

it does not emit or interact with electromagnetic radiation, such as light, and is thus invisible to the entire electromagnetic spectrum. Although dark matter has not been directly observed, its existence and properties are inferred from its gravitational effects such as the motions of visible matter,gravitational lensing, its influence on the universe's large-scale structure, and its effects in the cosmic microwave background. Dark matter is transparent to electromagnetic radiation and/or is so dense and small that it fails to absorb or emit enough radiation to be detectable

So:
Does spacetime share the BOLD things in common with "dark matter"?
1. Spacetime doesn not emit, or interact with light. Light passes freely along its plane.
2. Spacetime is inferred to exist and directly relate to, the gravitational affects of masses.
3. If we assume that spacetime is a mass of dark matter, this goes hand and hand. It's so massive that nothing can pass through it (Other than the force of two black holes colliding inorder to literally cause a rip in this mass of space time. Which also causes a gravitational wave or ripple.)

Spacetime being a literal mass would also explain why there is a limitation on speed. It has a surface tension, which even light cannot surpass this is why dark matter doesn't absorb light, the surface tension is too great.

Thoughts?


Spacetime:

This theory could be depicted as a large pool of dark matter (Space time.)
With a surface tension so great that things like planets and suns, and small black holes just float on the surface.
When a gravity wave is created or a "rip in space time", this is like breaking through the surface of the pool.

a reply to: DeadCat

I watched this the other month:



It's a debate about the existence of Nothing. As in, if you peeled away the mass, the gravity etc, what would you be left with. And the result according to these science folks are that you'd still be left with the overall geometry of the empty space.

It's a very long video but very much worth watching if you're in that kind of mindset.

~Tenth

a reply to: DeadCat

You sort of pit the cart before thr horse. Gravity doesn't effect space time. Mass effects space time this causes curvature we see as gravity. Space is bent around mass really small things like us we don't notice. But huge things like planets that slight bending becomes very significant. Meaning to leave a planet you have to travel fast enough to prevent that curve from pulling you down. Things orbiting our earth are in constant free fall space is bent not allowing them to leave but they are going fast enough to miss the ground.

originally posted by: tothetenthpower
a reply to: DeadCat

I watched this the other month:

It's a debate about the existence of Nothing. As in, if you peeled away the mass, the gravity etc, what would you be left with. And the result according to these science folks are that you'd still be left with the overall geometry of the empty space.

It's a very long video but very much worth watching if you're in that kind of mindset.

~Tenth

I don't really think I need to even watch to agree with that statement. If you peel away the very foundations of our universe, of course youll be left with nothing?

a reply to: dragonridr

Definitly But inorder for a mass to have an affect on the fabric to create the curvature. Must the fabric being curved not have mass, and therefore gravity? No matter how small?

Gravity would be the product of the two masses interacting with one another?

Time isnt affected by gravity, matter is. Even light. They say Photons are massless but they do exert 'pressure'.


I have one of these, I found it in the garbage...

image

originally posted by: intrptr

Time isnt affected by gravity, matter is. Even light. They say Photons are massless but they do exert 'pressure'.


I have one of these, I found it in the garbage...

image

Im talking about space then, not time. Im just stating speace time as the fabric of space.

Light is not affected by gravity, light rides along the surface of space that is warped by gravity. It's an illusion.

a reply to: tothetenthpower

It's a debate about the existence of Nothing.

Neil deGrasse Tyson loves these types of discussions...and so do I.

Great panel too...it really makes you think.

originally posted by: DeadCat
a reply to: dragonridr

Definitly But inorder for a mass to have an affect on the fabric to create the curvature. Must the fabric being curved not have mass, and therefore gravity? No matter how small?

Gravity would be the product of the two masses interacting with one another?

No this deals with what is called vectors they are changed in the presence of mass. Space isn't made of anything it just points between two others.

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: DeadCat
a reply to: dragonridr

Definitly But inorder for a mass to have an affect on the fabric to create the curvature. Must the fabric being curved not have mass, and therefore gravity? No matter how small?

Gravity would be the product of the two masses interacting with one another?

No this deals with what is called vectors they are changed in the presence of mass. Space isn't made of anything it just points between two others.

You're going by standard belief, Im theorizing that space is dark matter. The SPACE between two points is called distance.

a reply to: DeadCat

I don't really think I need to even watch to agree with that statement. If you peel away the very foundations of our universe, of course you'll be left with nothing?

That isn't what he said:

...the result according to these science folks are that you'd still be left with the overall geometry of the empty space.

If you empty space of everything in it, the space is still there.

Explain if you will, how gravity "affects empty space"?

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: DeadCat

I don't really think I need to even watch to agree with that statement. If you peel away the very foundations of our universe, of course you'll be left with nothing?

That isn't what he said:

...the result according to these science folks are that you'd still be left with the overall geometry of the empty space.

If you empty space of everything in it, the space is still there.

Explain if you will, how gravity "affects empty space"?

Because empty space causes gravity itself. once you add a mass to it.

a reply to: DeadCat

They also discuss the multiverse and how it relates to that.

It's most certainly informative if nothing else.

~Tenth

a reply to: DeadCat

Im talking about space then, not time. Im just stating space time as the fabric of space.

Either or then...

Neither time or (empty) space are affected by gravity.

Matter is affected by gravity. Gravity is generated by matter. If space was empty there'd be no gravity.

originally posted by: DeadCat

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: DeadCat

I don't really think I need to even watch to agree with that statement. If you peel away the very foundations of our universe, of course you'll be left with nothing?

That isn't what he said:

...the result according to these science folks are that you'd still be left with the overall geometry of the empty space.

If you empty space of everything in it, the space is still there.

Explain if you will, how gravity "affects empty space"?

Because empty space causes gravity itself. once you add a mass to it.

Okay, I see you edited your post. I'll gonna let someone else tell you why thats mistaken, too.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: DeadCat

Im talking about space then, not time. Im just stating space time as the fabric of space.

Either or then...

Neither time or (empty) space are affected by gravity.

Matter is affected by gravity. Gravity is generated by matter. If space was empty there'd be no gravity.

Relating it to my theory.

If space was a pool off dark matter, or a pool of SOMETHING, and it was only that something. No matter how massive or massless this something may be, there would be no gravity. Am I correct? It's only space, nothing to curve it in order to create gravity. Am I correct?

Until you added a mass ontop of it.

To which the fabric would curve, creating gravity.

Am I right?

a reply to: DeadCat

I actually speculated as much a while back though did not make the dark energy link and was discussing black holes and the potential for the formation of bubble universe as a result of gravity inversion (tearing apart) causing white hole formation at there heart since in theory at least that location is surrounded by the mass of the black hole and so hypothetically would be pulled in all direction though at a point probably smaller than even perhaps a quark and this would be surrounded by an internal event horizon just like the external event horizon of the black hole.

For my theory to be sound I realized that space must have gravity so I hypothesized that empty space (the superstring/superfield) must have gravity at a 1:g1 ration were g1 is the rate at which gravitation seeps into our universe from it's membrane of origin in superspace (brain theory and the hypothesis that since gravity is so much weaker than even electrostatic force it may emanate from elsewhere in superspace).

I see matter as a standing wave form at right angles to the time space continuum but really just as a ripple or scrunched up piece of superstring - the substance that everything is made up of in our physical reality and so were it is scrunched up if is compressed into a smaller and smaller volume but gravity remain's at a 1:g1 ratio until it is compressed to the level of a Black hole which may be the point at which our universe brain contact's the other brain in superspace (brain theory again) and so over saturate's, were space is compressed therefore the level of space compression (mass/matter/scrunched up super string) has a corresponding gravity relative to the amount of superstring in that volume (except in a true black hole were it can be regarded as a rupture or contact point between different membrain universe in superspace but not a black hole were it is still not in direct mebrain contact/superspace collision's between seperate brains).

So this make's sense to myself and thank you for the thread.

I would argue though that time is opposite to gravity, in fact though not a measurable energy I do regard it has having been drawn through from the white hole that we call the big bang by a surrounding black hole that may be outside (or all around) our own universe and energy space and the time space continuum itself is the volatile reaction as these two forces attract/repel, does anti time exist or indeed anti gravity, well I personally do not think so but maybe they do.

Empty space with nothing. Even if it is 100% massive as #. No gravity will exist.

Until you add a single mass. which floats upon the sea of dark matter. Creating a curve, creating gravity.

My 10cents

When the Big Bang happened it created a wave of energy like surfing and we missed the wave .

That wave or waves are expanding our universe and it's like matter is like oil in the water but there's no surface so it's just rippling around and that's why there getting held together and space is the water and dark energy is the energy of the wave .

originally posted by: DeadCat

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: DeadCat

Im talking about space then, not time. Im just stating space time as the fabric of space.

Either or then...

Neither time or (empty) space are affected by gravity.

Matter is affected by gravity. Gravity is generated by matter. If space was empty there'd be no gravity.

Relating it to my theory.

If space was a pool off dark matter, or a pool of SOMETHING, and it was only that something. No matter how massive or massless this something may be, there would be no gravity. Am I correct? It's only space, nothing to curve it in order to create gravity. Am I correct?

Until you added a mass ontop of it.

To which the fabric would curve, creating gravity.

Am I right?

No your not space isn't a thing at all other than distance and the time the object perceives that it arrived. For example to light if you could ride a photon to you sitting on it time becomes irrelevant as well as distance. So from our time light might have travelled billions of years to light it left and reached its destination at the same time. This is how time comes into play with space.

As far as space having gravity no it doesn't it's not dark matter we would detect it. But that aside you don't understand gravity mass causes a distortion in space time and space time. Without mass there is no gravity period. In fact Winston would tell you gravity doesn't exist it doesn't pull or push or do anything. Mass causes vectors which is the path objects must take to bend. Everything in the universe is constantly in motion. Even you you are currently falling towards thr earth or its falling toward you doesn't matter it's relative.

The brilliance of Einstein did away with gravity being a force but is simply two masses attached to one another through space time being warped meaning not flat.