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Space time has mass? Spacetime and dark matter, one in the same?

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posted on Jul, 4 2016 @ 04:40 PM
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Per your highlighted segments in the OP, if your idea is correct and spacetime is dark matter, how could that possibly explain the large-scale structure of the universe? A pervasive, all-encompassing dark matter matrix would not seem to lend itself to the filaments and web structure we see galaxies and molecular gas clouds cluster into. Also, as for gravitational lensing, wouldn't we see it everywhere? Where we do see it, there is a large accumulation of mass, and therefore gravity, causing it. Much of the mass and gravity are from dark matter. Is there more spacetime between things when there is less space between them, causing the additional mass and gravity?
edit on 4-7-2016 by pfishy because: (no reason given)




posted on Jul, 4 2016 @ 05:10 PM
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a reply to: dragonridr

I really don't think you're understanding me dude. We are both saying the same thing..

You're saying I don't understand gravity, yet your discribing what you just said was not gravity...

"mass causes a distortion in space time and space time. Without mass there is no gravity period. In fact Winston would tell you gravity doesn't exist it doesn't pull or push or do anything. Mass causes vectors which is the path objects must take to bend."

That's exactly what I said, and you're saying no..

Like I said: you take empty space... no gravity. You add mass. It causes a curvature... this is gravity. If another mass comes along to the curvature, it will experience gravity...

I've already stated that gravity is caused by the curvature of space due to the mass acting on it.. and you said no.

edit on 4-7-2016 by DeadCat because: (no reason given)

edit on 4-7-2016 by DeadCat because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 4 2016 @ 05:31 PM
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a reply to: dragonridr




The brilliance of Einstein did away with gravity being a force but is simply two masses attached to one another through space time being warped meaning not flat.


Sorry but if space is empty, how can it be warped? If there's nothing there, nothing can affect it surely?
Are you saying mass causes gravity indirectly as it warps empty space time? I'm struggling to get my head round this.

Also If everything in the universe is constantly in motion, why should it be so? And doesn't that mean there is such a thing as perpetual motion after all?



posted on Jul, 4 2016 @ 05:38 PM
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originally posted by: intrptr

Time isnt affected by gravity, matter is. Even light. They say Photons are massless but they do exert 'pressure'.

I have one of these, I found it in the garbage...

image


Raising an atomic clock to altitude speeds up the clock rate. Therefore time IS affected by gravity.

Photons have a zero rest mass. Photons do have relativistic mass which is shown as momentum as they travel at the 'speed of light'.

Photon propogation speed can move slower than the 'speed of light' (like through Bose-Einstein Condensates) or even be stopped altogether.

This is because the limitation of the speed with which photons move is not the cause of the 'c' constant but is its effect.

Light cannot move faster than its limiting speed, which is defined by the 'c' constant. We call 'c' the 'speed of light' but it is actually because of 'c' that light cannot travel faster than the 'speed of light' and, as has been shown experimentally, light can travel at slower speeds than the 'speed of light'.



posted on Jul, 4 2016 @ 05:54 PM
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originally posted by: surfer_soul
a reply to: dragonridr




The brilliance of Einstein did away with gravity being a force but is simply two masses attached to one another through space time being warped meaning not flat.


Sorry but if space is empty, how can it be warped? If there's nothing there, nothing can affect it surely?
Are you saying mass causes gravity indirectly as it warps empty space time? I'm struggling to get my head round this.

Also If everything in the universe is constantly in motion, why should it be so? And doesn't that mean there is such a thing as perpetual motion after all?


Honest dude I was about to ask the same thing.


Wtf is being curved by mass to cause gravity? Nothing??? I don't attest to that which is why I'm trying to theorize that this "nothing" is something lmao..



posted on Jul, 4 2016 @ 06:44 PM
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originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: DeadCat

I actually speculated as much a while back though did not make the dark energy link and was discussing black holes and the potential for the formation of bubble universe as a result of gravity inversion (tearing apart) causing white hole formation at there heart since in theory at least that location is surrounded by the mass of the black hole and so hypothetically would be pulled in all direction though at a point probably smaller than even perhaps a quark and this would be surrounded by an internal event horizon just like the external event horizon of the black hole.

For my theory to be sound I realized that space must have gravity so I hypothesized that empty space (the superstring/superfield) must have gravity at a 1:g1 ration were g1 is the rate at which gravitation seeps into our universe from it's membrane of origin in superspace (brain theory and the hypothesis that since gravity is so much weaker than even electrostatic force it may emanate from elsewhere in superspace).

I see matter as a standing wave form at right angles to the time space continuum but really just as a ripple or scrunched up piece of superstring - the substance that everything is made up of in our physical reality and so were it is scrunched up if is compressed into a smaller and smaller volume but gravity remain's at a 1:g1 ratio until it is compressed to the level of a Black hole which may be the point at which our universe brain contact's the other brain in superspace (brain theory again) and so over saturate's, were space is compressed therefore the level of space compression (mass/matter/scrunched up super string) has a corresponding gravity relative to the amount of superstring in that volume (except in a true black hole were it can be regarded as a rupture or contact point between different membrain universe in superspace but not a black hole were it is still not in direct mebrain contact/superspace collision's between seperate brains).

So this make's sense to myself and thank you for the thread.

I would argue though that time is opposite to gravity, in fact though not a measurable energy I do regard it has having been drawn through from the white hole that we call the big bang by a surrounding black hole that may be outside (or all around) our own universe and energy space and the time space continuum itself is the volatile reaction as these two forces attract/repel, does anti time exist or indeed anti gravity, well I personally do not think so but maybe they do.


Sorry mistyped a little third paragraph bracketed explanation.
(except in a true black hole were it can be regarded as a rupture or contact point between different membrain universe in superspace but not a BROWN hole were it is still not in direct mebrain contact/superspace collision's between seperate brains)

A brown hole is probably more common than a genuin black hole and is one in which the mass is not totally crushed into a quantum singularity, it still has enough gravity to trap light but is not as dense as a true black hole and there may be no way to deterime if a black hole is really a black hole or a lesser brown hole, of course Stephen hawking believe's that no true Black holes exist but if I am correct the very existance of our time space continuum is evidence that they do indeed exist as our universe may have been born and still be existing inside one, mass would seem to accelerate away not slow down as a result and time space would not necessarily curve back on itself if it is as instead of coming back to your point of origin if you were able to travel in a perfectly streight line across the universe you would instead encounter the region of the outer universe (or what we may regard as such) which would be as you approached that surrounding event horizon - the one inside the black hole and so all that our universe would be drawn outward to eventual spaghettification - a term coined to explain how mass is pulled out of existance as it approaches a black hole - the superstring is litterally pulled taught by the gravity well as it is so intense.

Even if our universe was not born inside a black hole (which it may have been and if is was that black hole still then exists but it and it's two event horizon's effectively totally isolate us from it's parent continuum in which it was once a star which perversely there may have only just turned into a black hole or be in the process of doing so as time there would be to our perception on our time frame very slow indeed since we have a more fresh supply of time from the inversion - white hole that our universe was born from) then since there is a theory that at first all that came out of the black hole was moving at a rate exceeding the speed of light before the law's integral to OUR time space continuum settled down from there dimensional chaos then that energy of that initial explosion at the speed of light may actually have formed a surrounding singularity anyway as it compressed back on itself before it slowed down enough to form our time space continuum though of course this would potentially have happened even if we did form inside a black hole and formed a third layer of insulation against the outer parent continuum.



posted on Jul, 4 2016 @ 06:46 PM
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originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: DeadCat

You sort of pit the cart before thr horse. Gravity doesn't effect space time. [B]Mass effects space time this causes curvature we see as gravity. Space is bent around mass really small things like us we don't notice. But huge things like planets that slight bending becomes very significant. [/B] Meaning to leave a planet you have to travel fast enough to prevent that curve from pulling you down. Things orbiting our earth are in constant free fall space is bent not allowing them to leave but they are going fast enough to miss the ground.


In the bold statement, what is it that's bending? Space? Like.. the area of nothing around you is being bent?



posted on Jul, 4 2016 @ 07:07 PM
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a reply to: DeadCat

String theory suggest's that empty space and mass are made of the same thing so I also do not see the validity of that outdated argument but though outdated it does still remain valid until we prove it one way or the other but it would suggest that Space is made of something even if that is not matter/mass,.

Mass is of course interchangable with matter in many equation's but is not actually the same thing so mass is not gravity and the presence of mass does not explain gravity at all since in those early equations gravity was more of a mystery and it's connection with mass was though to be a mythical particle called a graviton,.

Of course if the Brain theory is correct the Gravity emanates form another membrain universe in superspace and so it does touch all space but then the only way to explain the mass having higher gravity is it must therefore be space in smaller volume and that then fall's back to string theory which would suggest therefore that the smaller volume is filled with Scrunched up space (or what space is made of - superstring),.

Time is not scrunched up there but it is affected by gravity or perhap's displaced non theless as 'perhaps' they are opposing forces and superdense gravity displaces time while time remain's at a more even ratio in empty (unscrunched) space and probably rules in a white hole opposing gravity there
- faster than light for a fraction of the smallest interval of time as we measure it at the beginning of the big bang?
and therefore time may be regarded as a kind of force, time itself may be the key to true anti gravity if that is even possible as anti gravity would suggest anti time, time and gravity's opposing though does not suggest opposite polarity's just a far more complex system beyond that which need's further analysys and study to hypothesy a more elegant solution and understanding (if we ever learn such awareness then perhaps we can even create an artificial simulacrum of anti gravity or force such an extra time space force to work for us inside the time space continuum though doing so may be disasterous if worked wrongly and be extremely destructive.

edit on 4-7-2016 by LABTECH767 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 4 2016 @ 07:23 PM
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originally posted by: DeadCat

originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: DeadCat

You sort of pit the cart before thr horse. Gravity doesn't effect space time. [B]Mass effects space time this causes curvature we see as gravity. Space is bent around mass really small things like us we don't notice. But huge things like planets that slight bending becomes very significant. [/B] Meaning to leave a planet you have to travel fast enough to prevent that curve from pulling you down. Things orbiting our earth are in constant free fall space is bent not allowing them to leave but they are going fast enough to miss the ground.


In the bold statement, what is it that's bending? Space? Like.. the area of nothing around you is being bent?


This is where Einstein field equations come in to play. See it all goes back to E=MC2. This tells us mass is energy or energy can be mass interchangable. Energy can create a field and a field is any area with a non zero value. So truly empty space if you could find it would have a zero field value meaning nothin happens. However when something passes through a field it is effected depending on the field. In the case of gravity an object coming near a massive object or for field equations a large amount of energy it's trajectory is effected. In other words it vector can be changed.

To fully understand this you need to study field equations and how they work. But again bottom line space is made of nothing however every point in space will have a field equation value. In empty space it's very close to zero.
edit on 7/4/16 by dragonridr because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 4 2016 @ 08:18 PM
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a reply to: LABTECH767

That whole comment was a superstring, actually.



posted on Jul, 4 2016 @ 08:34 PM
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originally posted by: intrptr

Time isnt affected by gravity, matter is. Even light. They say Photons are massless but they do exert 'pressure'.


I have one of these, I found it in the garbage...

image


A Crookes radiometer spins because of differential heating and gas molecules still in the bulb. If it's a hard vacuum, no spin.



posted on Jul, 4 2016 @ 09:33 PM
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a reply to: dragonridr

So then space is a zero energy field, being disrupted by mass. Causing gravity?
edit on 4-7-2016 by DeadCat because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 4 2016 @ 11:33 PM
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a reply to: DeadCat

time has mass because it is coupled to dark matter, but space has no mass



posted on Jul, 4 2016 @ 11:36 PM
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originally posted by: DeadCat

originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: DeadCat

You sort of pit the cart before thr horse. Gravity doesn't effect space time. [B]Mass effects space time this causes curvature we see as gravity. Space is bent around mass really small things like us we don't notice. But huge things like planets that slight bending becomes very significant. [/B] Meaning to leave a planet you have to travel fast enough to prevent that curve from pulling you down. Things orbiting our earth are in constant free fall space is bent not allowing them to leave but they are going fast enough to miss the ground.


In the bold statement, what is it that's bending? Space? Like.. the area of nothing around you is being bent?
you are right space does not bend. dont listen to jokers who will bring out einsteins bunk relativity.
the only soln for these jokers is to put them b4 a firing squad, Lol



posted on Jul, 5 2016 @ 12:00 AM
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originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: DeadCat


time itself may be the key to true anti gravity if that is even possible as anti gravity would suggest anti time, time and gravity's opposing thouoes not suggest opposite polarity's just a far more complex system beyond that which need's further analysys and study to hypothesy a more elegant solution and understanding (if we ever learn such awareness then perhaps we can even create an artificial simulacrum of anti gravity or force such an extra time space force to work for us inside the time space continuum though doing so may be disasterous if worked wrongly and be extremely destructive.
Somewhat right. to get a better grasp read thread in my signature



posted on Jul, 5 2016 @ 12:07 AM
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a reply to: pfishy

tposy turrvy eh.
dark matter is responsible for giving mass to matter. dark matter is also coupled to time. start taking time out and you lose mass but not matter
http:www.scribd.com/savvys84



posted on Jul, 5 2016 @ 12:25 AM
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originally posted by: DeadCat
You're going by standard belief, Im theorizing that space is dark matter.
That's called a hypothesis, not a theory. That hypothesis has been falsified by observing the distribution of dark matter compared to the distribution of space and noting they are distributed differently, therefore they can't be the same. In order to be a theory there would need to be evidence to support it, but we have evidence to contradict it, so it's definitely not a theory, it's a failed hypothesis.

By the way, we think that dark energy may be a property of space, because it does seem to be distributed about the same way as space, though we are still collecting data. So the concept of space being the same as dark matter isn't crazy, it's just wrong. Use a similar idea for dark energy instead and you may have something.

edit on 201675 by Arbitrageur because: clarification



posted on Jul, 5 2016 @ 01:50 AM
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a reply to: Arbitrageur

Dark energy is analogous to gravity in that, as gravity is a property of matter, dark energy is a property of space.

Like that? Do I have to do the math next?

edit on 7/5/2016 by Phage because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 5 2016 @ 02:17 AM
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a reply to: Phage



Do I have to do the math next?

I'll give you a cookie if you do. It can be any kind you want.



posted on Jul, 5 2016 @ 04:08 AM
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a reply to: Nochzwei

sigh can you stop trolling threads with your "Read my signature"

Your signature has been debunked more times than moon-landing conspiracies, it holds no information relevant as evidence for anything more than thermal expansion...




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