Why We Should Not Be Transitioning Children.....

originally posted by: veracity
a reply to: samerulesapply


lofl. its so funny to me when someone accuses an intelligent poster of being paid.

Glad I made someone laugh.

That intelligent poster you speak so highly of acquired that immense knowledge and intelligence from a friend. She makes me laugh all the time.

So I'm glad that I was able to contribute to ATS in a similar vein.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: samerulesapply

And I get really tired of people getting on these threads and talking like they have a PhD in psychology, when they don't know what the hell they are talking about.

If you are such a mental health expert, what is your treatment plan for someone with gender dysphoria and what is your success rate with said treatment? What type of drugs have cured it? What type of therapy has cured it? Hmmmm?

I'm not a mental health expert...do I need to be one in order to acknowledge that someone with paranoid schizofrenia has a mental illness? I that case...shouldn't that apply to us all?

I'm assuming that, since you spoke with such authority in that reply...that you are medically qualified?

Which is fine...if not then I'm guessing this is another fantasy. Don't involve me in your crazy alternate realities, man!

This thread isn't about mental health, it's about role play.

a reply to: samerulesapply

No I'm not an expert, but I look to the experts for their diagnosis and treatment recommendations. The standard accepted treatment for people with gender dysphoria is to encourage them to live their lives as the gender they identify with. That's not me saying that. That's doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists who specialize in gender dysphoria. Those are the experts who have been studying it for many years.

But of course, you know better.

a reply to: kaylaluv

I mean, this is perfect. I come here and point out that it's the same 2 or 3 people...and I'm thinking,t hat other one isn't here, where is..I dunno, it?

Even in my attempts not to offend you, I inadvertantly do. I apologise.

But you challenged me to name treatment or medication that can cure this...not a disorder? Ok, I have none...never claimed to, same as I never once claimed to be a psychologist. Like I said, live your fantasies, but keep me out of it.

But, by your logic...what you are saying is, we know of no cure therefore there isn't one. Tell it to cancer research, mate.

Just because we can't cure something, don't mean we won't ever be able to. If we were all like you, there'd be no cancer research.

There'd most probably be lots of cancer patients everywhere...but we'd have to say and do things a specific way to keep them happy...convince them that cancer is natural, you don't feel cancerous but your body is.

Or something, god only knows what type of reality you inhabit/invisage.

One where I'm a doctor, no doubt.

a reply to: samerulesapply

Damn! Where's my check? Annee, have you seen yours? I guess the "it" is here now so don't be disappointed.

Some people happen to be knowledgeable about this subject either by study or experience. Some also happen to be aware of the medical and scientific facts as well as the social ramifications of this condition and wish to share that information bringing something to the table beyond myth, urban legend and confused, inaccurate preconceived ideas and attitudes.

Yes, I'll admit I do "hang about ATS waiting on these threads" because generally, they are filled with misinformation, rumor, innuendo and a lot of ignorance of the facts particularly when it comes to trans youth. I feel the best way to counter what are often just lies, political or religious rhetoric/dogma and most often just opinions based on ill-informed emotions surrounding this subject is to present facts, links, scientific and medical research and literature and at times my own experiences as someone that was a very gender dysphoric/trans youth with now over 61 years of lived experience to reflect on all of that.

My mission here, and really the only reason I returned after being once banned is to bring factual information and awareness to the issues surrounding trans youth and their families to make their lives better, to help spread positive attitudes so that trans kids of today have the opportunity to grow up into healthy and happy adults and to dispel some of the prejudice, myths and inaccuracies surrounding this condition.

Even if this was a paid position, which it is not, I would not accept compensation for doing something out of conscience that I feel is my moral duty to do in an effort to help the lives of others. It may be the "same crap over and over" but the same crap and bullsh!t comes up time and time again. Some people will refuse to learn and choose to remain willfully ignorant if not outright bigoted and hateful but there are others reading here not so locked into their small little minds that do appreciate hearing an informed point of view on this subject.

It is pretty obvious which camp you are in.

a reply to: kaylaluv

Ok? So live your life...nobody is denying you that. Not-a-one person is denying you that.

This thread is about what?

This thread is clearly outlined in the title, did you even read the OP?

You don't agree that kids under a certain age are incapable of making such life altering choices? At wghat age would you say, it's acceptable for a child to decide, definitively, that he/she is actually a she/he?

Because I think there should be some sore of standard, here. If young tommy, 5, tells mommy he wants to be a policeman...does mother send him to boot camp the following day? But him a baton and cuffs? No...she expects little Tommy will most likely want to be a ninja in a weeks time.

I don't care how you live your life, I care about anyone wanting to corrupt the minds of children...often times kids ain't even thhinking about this crap until some idiot comes along and plants a seed...like the poster earlier who said their kid was suddenly trans. I reckon you probably didn't read that response, either.

you just cane on in here with your pre(ill)-conceived notion of what this thread is about...you were probably contacted by one of your pals and told another debate was raging...to come on in and support the troops.

Don't matter what the thread is about...just barge in and chuck wild accusations around!

Yeah!

You guys rock! Is...is it too late for me to switch sides? I want to hang with you guys.

a reply to: Freija

Great...not once have I refered to you in this thread. I've spoken specifically to Annee and Kaylaluv.

Would you like me to explain why?

I'm going to, anyway - because what they are saying, in the context/subject/title of this thread, is irrelevant.

I have not responded to you specifically because, well because of what you just said.

You're contributing to the thread in a relevant way, carry on.

Since y'all always just sort of stick together, this kind of hive mentality, that's how I'll treat you from now on.

I know exactly what camp I am in, is this you just figuring it out, Friej?

You should have asked at the beginning. I'll explain to you what my camp is...

I don't have a problem with gays, lesbians, transvestites, or even trans people.

Think about this - to deny anyone their rights to be who they are would inevitably lead to me being denied mine. That's one thing I can say for an absolute fact.

Because I ain't no stranger to what one might consider to be fringe or unconventional interests. I ain't going to elaborate on that, I'll leave it at that, it can mean whatever you want it to mean.

Because the truth is it applies to pretty much everyone. We all have something...my schtick is I don't think that my something should be foistered on anyone else. I don't feel alienated, ostracised, abnormal, or anything like that. Nor do I want my own lifestyle to be presented as a plausible and entirely normal choice for kids to make.

You see, I understand how we influence the young. Some seem either not to, or just flat out don't care.

Now I hide certain things from certain people, it's called privacy, respect - I'm not into corrupting children or influencing them in a negative way.

I hope that makes it clear for you. That's the camp I'm in. I thought I'd made that clear in previous threads...I only directed this response to you because you saw fit to aim yours at me, despi9te me not having uttered a single, solitary slovo in your direction.

If you read over these threads you'll notice a pattern - it's a simple pattern that you can apply to me and many others, you missed it - it goes like this:

People state option, typically without insult or malice intended.
You and some otherd don't like opinions and respond.
People reply, still trying to maintain some repsectability.
You and few others decide you still don't like, start hiving and throwing insults - I think it's called baiting...
People respond aggressivly...

And thus is the pattern.

So you hang around ATS in order to partake in the simple game I just outlined - you and your clique there attempt to bait, abuse and ridicule other members who are simply stating their on-topic opinion...

In other words - trolling.

so you're a 60-something trans troll...good for you.

a reply to: samerulesapply

So you agree that the standard acceptable treatment from the experts is the right way to handle it? That's a start.

Again, when it comes to trans children, we look to the experts in the field. These children get years of therapy with psychologists and psychiatrists who specialize in gender dysphoria. It's not like they get sex reassignment surgery at age four. There is usually a whole team of doctors that work with the family over a period of many years. There actually IS a standard.

a reply to: kaylaluv

Ok...now be honest with yourself, who's really being ignorant, here?

Did you read this thread? Yes or no?

Someone came in earlier and spoke of their young child...says the kid suddenly decided he/she was transgender.

Where did this come from? Did the child dream this up on their own? I sincerely doubt it.

I reckon a seed was planted...probably in school. This has no place in schools. You know when you should talk to a kid about gender, or any confusion? When they feel they have to bring it up..the minue you sit kids down and tell them about this, they'll think about it.

But they'll think about it as a child, not an adult...not like you or me.

It's down-right selfish...and in actual fact you are not helping but perpetuating this.

Freija likes to tell us all about...er, somethings past, and it's pretty sad to read. Nobody should go through that...but your mindset appears to be...no, this is how it's supposed to be, it's normal.

You're the researcher deciding there is no cure...that the only cure is to suffer it as best you can, do what you can to make it more comfortable.

If it's so horrible your only goal here should be to make sure nobody else has to live and suffer what you did...could it have been so bad if you're promoting it as a valid lifestyle choice?

I'll tell you - I once suffered terrible burns from playing with fireworks as a kid - which is why I'd never advocate such a thing. I don't want anyone else to go through that.

You don't want what's best for everyone, yours is the selfish choice. It's easier for you and a select few others for everyone to go out of their minds and live this lie. To propagate it, promote it.

It's disgusting, it's selfish, it's absolutely horrible.

Y'all should be pioneers in this field, breaking new ground...instead you've decided to just live with it.

Deny yourself and all else because that's what YOU want.

Yeah, I'm so selfish and ignorant.

originally posted by: samerulesapply


Someone came in earlier and spoke of their young child...says the kid suddenly decided he/she was transgender.

You're talking about one poster? Did the person send their child to therapists? Therapists who specialize in gender dysphoria know all the signs of true dysphoria. They can work with a child and their parents and figure out whether the child has some other issue that they think is dysphoria, or whether they really have gender dysphoria.

Where did this come from? Did the child dream this up on their own? I sincerely doubt it.

This child? I have no idea. I don't even know if they have had therapy or if they have gender dysphoria. I do know that most trans children KNOW that their body doesn't match their identity when they are very young, like before schooling. I also know that parents are baffled by their little boy, whom they have given a boy name, dressed in boy clothes and given boy toys to play with, tells them over and over and over that he is a GIRL. These parents try to ignore it at first, and it doesn't go away. They try to bribe the kid to quit talking about being a girl, it doesn't work. Then they often try punishment to get the kid to quit talking about being a girl, but that doesn't work. The kid ends up getting signs of depression - won't eat, won't sleep, won't play with friends. Some of these kids tell their parents they want to end their lives because no one will listen to them and no one will help them. Parents who love their kids are heartbroken by this, and end up taking their kids to doctors/therapists for help. These families work with a whole team of professionals who take the transition steps one at a time, over a period of years.

You're the researcher deciding there is no cure...that the only cure is to suffer it as best you can, do what you can to make it more comfortable.

No, I am referring to the experts in the field.

I'll tell you - I once suffered terrible burns from playing with fireworks as a kid - which is why I'd never advocate such a thing. I don't want anyone else to go through that.

Playing with fireworks has nothing to do with being born with gender dysphoria. Playing with fireworks is a CHOICE.

You don't want what's best for everyone, yours is the selfish choice. It's easier for you and a select few others for everyone to go out of their minds and live this lie. To propagate it, promote it.

It's disgusting, it's selfish, it's absolutely horrible.

Y'all should be pioneers in this field, breaking new ground...instead you've decided to just live with it.

Gender dysphoria and its treatment is being researched all the time. More and more of the latest research suggests it's a physical or neurological issue and not a psychological issue. More and more of the latest research suggests that the sooner a person starts the transition process, the healthier and happier they are.

Once again, I look to the experts who have been studying this. Who do you look to? Yourself?

By the way, it sounds like you think I'm a transgender person. I am not, but I personally know transgender people, and I have read the research. Research done by experts in the mental health profession. Experts who have been studying this for many years.

a reply to: samerulesapply

Yes, I've read some of the studies you guys have posted.

I've also read and posted links by so-called experts saying otherwise.

You acknowledge that we're still learning about this, which means we've no idea of the eventual outcome.

So isn't it best to play it safe?

I like how you still have ignored my question on whether you read this thread, but tell me about how you read loads of uother material.

Yes, one poster in this very thread...do I think that confused child is the only one? Hell no, do you?

That would be another deluision.

Yes I did think you were transgender because you feverishly come out in their defense at every turn, you even get involved in threads without even knowing what the thread is actually about.

You acknowledge that we're still learning and have some way to go with regards to what we know about this issue...your experts might turn out to be 100% correct...or they might be the modern-day equivalent of surgeons using outdated treatments like blood letting.

I'm not 100 percent saying anything - I'm actually trying to be objective. Seems to me it's the trans folk and those in support of it that are dealing in absolutes, here...and a very dangerous hand they're playing.

All for completely selfish reasons, of course - as I've already pointed out.

So have you read this thread or not?

Figured out what it's about yet?

Only advice I'll give you is to do so beforehand in future...that way you don't look so foolish calling other folk ignorant when you can't even stay on topic.

a reply to: samerulesapply

Is it selfish to help a child who wants to kill themselves? Want to know what IS selfish? Punishing a child who tells you they are not the gender they were born as, and telling that child to live with the gender they are, no matter how bad it makes them feel. Punishing that child because YOU don't want to have a child that's a "freak" - because YOU don't want to have to deal with it. Because YOU don't want to be embarrassed when you go to church or to work or hang out with friends who know your child is "different". There are selfish parents out there who don't help their children with gender dysphoria. Those children end up as runaways or they end up dead by suicide. Fact.

I know what this thread is about. The OP doesn't think children should be involved in any type of transition process when they have gender dysphoria. The OP doesn't know any child with gender dysphoria. The OP hasn't had to live with a child who has gender dysphoria. The OP doesn't know what they are talking about.

Apparently, neither do you.

a reply to: kaylaluv

Who is advocating the punishment of children?

You still apear not to be able to read and digest what is presented before you.

I'd much prefer we could adequately treat them. Seems you're the one who'd prefer to see them punished...to see them live this allegedly terrible life.

It's not me that is saying it's terrible, it's people who have lived it! They tell you it's terrible but want others to have the right to live it.

What?

Where did I say I wanted to punish anyone? Pounish them for what? Like that poster who spoke about their kid, earlier...why should that child be punished because some pervert taught them something they had no place speaking to a child about? It's abuse...it's actually abuse.

You act like you're on a crusade...I think you need to be really honest with yourself and take stock of this...you're either living a lie or you're too far gone.

Either way I don't care any more...have fun promoting what you claim is a horrible existence, it's not warped at all.

a reply to: kaylaluv

And just to add...knowing a child with the condition doesn't qualify you any more than knowing a child with leukemia makes you a cancer expert...that's a ridiculous notion and indicative of the type of crap you guys continually spout.

I don't know any sex offenders but I still know it's wrong. I don't know any schozo's but I still know it's not desirable.

Not sure what your point is, seems you think the OP isn't entitled to an opinion since he doesn't know any trans kids.

As if the thoughts and opinions of a trans kid is somehow medical gospel..it is not, it is extremely biased opinion and nothing more. Being trans doesn't make you any more honest, sincere or even observant than anyone else...that is a completerly illogical argument and you ought to drop it...it shows you for what you actually are.

A self-acknlowledged doubter scrambling and scraping up whatever excuses you can find.

originally posted by: samerulesapply


I'd much prefer we could adequately treat them.

So tell me, Dr. samerules apply, how do we adequately treat them?

Where did I say I wanted to punish anyone? Pounish them for what? Like that poster who spoke about their kid, earlier...why should that child be punished because some pervert taught them something they had no place speaking to a child about? It's abuse...it's actually abuse.

By ignoring the child or telling the child to quit talking about being the wrong gender, you are punishing them.
By sending them to doctors who specialize in gender dysphoria, you are helping them.

a reply to: samerulesapply

Oh my god, how many times must I say this????????

LOOK AT WHAT THE EXPERTS IN GENDER DYSPHORIA SAY. Not what the OP says. Not even what I say.

No, the thoughts and opinions of a trans kid is not medical gospel. Neither is the OP's. But do what the experts in this field say mean nothing to you?

Quit focusing on me. Focus on the experts. Focus on main stream mental health care experts and what they are saying about this and how they are treating it. The experts. The experts. How many times must I say it. Not me. The experts.

a reply to: samerulesapply

I mean, this is perfect. I come here and point out that it's the same 2 or 3 people...and I'm thinking, that other one isn't here, where is..I dunno, it?

Care to clarify who you are calling an it? If it was me, you can go straight to hell without passing go.

Annee and Kaylaluv both happen to be knowledgeable, educated and very well informed on this subject. Why do you find it to be some nefarious collusion that those that do know what they're talking about end up in the same threads trying to educate people?

Freija likes to tell us all about...er, somethings past, and it's pretty sad to read. Nobody should go through that...but your mindset appears to be...no, this is how it's supposed to be, it's normal.

Being trans IS a part of the normal human condition/diversity. It always has been and probably always will be. Granted, it is rare but is indeed a naturally occurring condition so if you happen to be born with gender dysphoria, that is what is normal for you. This is not something someone chooses, why would they, and being trans is not a "lifestyle".

If it's so horrible your only goal here should be to make sure nobody else has to live and suffer what you did...could it have been so bad if you're promoting it as a valid lifestyle choice?

Transgender children exist. That is an undeniable and irrefutable fact. Where the "suffering" and "terrible" aspect of this condition comes in for these kids is when parents or society fail to recognize and acknowledge this fact. Had I lived in such enlightened times as we do now where the science and medicine dealing with this condition as well as sociological issues surrounding it are more well known and advanced, the early years of my life would have been much less traumatic and literally scarring . The first 14/15 years of my life would not have been a constant struggle and on-going battle with my parents and the world around me to be recognized for who and what I am. It took that long for my parents to let go and it wasn't easy for them considering how little about transsexuality in children was known in my childhood era. Some are still living in the dark ages and my aim here is to shine a little light on that. Are all kids that experiment with their gender expression or are gender non-conforming/expansive transgender? Certainly not but for those genuinely experiencing and struggling with gender dysphoria, it will never go away.

For kids that truly are transgender and dealing with gender dysphoria, the goal is for acceptance and affirming, supportive care so that they do not have to go through the education system being ostracized and bullied and singled out as freaks, its or stigmatized with mental illness. This is what I hope to prevent by bringing awareness of these issues to the board.

77% of transgender youth in unsupportive families that don't receive proper care seriously contemplate suicide. 55% of these kids will attempt suicide before the age of 20. I don't like to talk about it but I also fell into that group nor are my memories of being beaten and ridiculed for who I was fond ones. The rate of suicide among transgender youth that are raised in supportive environments goes down to 4%. Yes, that is still higher than average but quite frankly, being trans, especially as a child is very difficult. The more that can be done to normalize the lives of these kids and avoid these things, the better chance they will become healthy, happy and productive adults. Most people my age that were trans as children didn't make it. It is only because my folks did do a 180 with their acceptance and understanding for who I am as a person that I'm still alive today and for what it's worth, my life has been pretty dang awesome, all things considered.

What is abuse is denying trans youth the emotional and professional support helping them to deal with and come to terms with who they are. Anything less is neglect and people wonder why trans kids run away from home to live on the streets doing sex work for survival or flatout end their lives out of desperation and misery.

From an outsider's point of view, it's easy to sit back and think or proselytize how parents and families should deal with trans children. In my dealings with transgender youth and their parents, I can tell you that you have no idea what you are talking about. Nobody "wants" to be transgender or transsexual and that is probably the last thing in the world parents would want or push on their kids. It is also the last thing in the world I would encourage anyone to be but when there are kids suffering and in great pain, what can be done to help them is clear, supported by medical organizations worldwide and proven to be successful. Unless you are the parent of a transgender child, you've really got no dog in this fight but still insist on spreading your opinions and personal feelings which aren't doing a damn thing to actually help these kids. Like Kaylaluv says, listen to the experts in this field. Disregard everything I've had to say too if you want, that's your prerogative but you'd be sorely mistaken if you think your opinions in this matter have any merit.

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: samerulesapply


I'd much prefer we could adequately treat them.

So tell me, Dr. samerules apply, how do we adequately treat them?

Where did I say I wanted to punish anyone? Pounish them for what? Like that poster who spoke about their kid, earlier...why should that child be punished because some pervert taught them something they had no place speaking to a child about? It's abuse...it's actually abuse.

By ignoring the child or telling the child to quit talking about being the wrong gender, you are punishing them.
By sending them to doctors who specialize in gender dysphoria, you are helping them.

More circular stupid mixed with veiled insults...you simply refuse to be human.

I DON'T KNOW how to treat them...I don't know how to treat cancer, either...does that mean it can't be treated?

NO! How many times does this statement have to be made before it sinks into your soft, soft head? We can't treat something therefore it cannot be treated! Like I said, you're the equivalent of the cancer researcher who gives up and decides there's no cure because you either haven't found one yet, can't be bothered looking...or, more likely the case - DON'T WANT TO. You're a selfish person, period.

You're so closed minded in favour of what's best for you and a select few that you've completely shut yourself off to reality.

We're just going 'round in circles, here...goodbye.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: samerulesapply

Oh my god, how many times must I say this????????

LOOK AT WHAT THE EXPERTS IN GENDER DYSPHORIA SAY. Not what the OP says. Not even what I say.

No, the thoughts and opinions of a trans kid is not medical gospel. Neither is the OP's. But do what the experts in this field say mean nothing to you?

Quit focusing on me. Focus on the experts. Focus on main stream mental health care experts and what they are saying about this and how they are treating it. The experts. The experts. How many times must I say it. Not me. The experts.

Again, this thread is about something specific. You guys latch onto every single trans thread, regardless of the points being addressed in the OP...y'all come here to attack and insult people.

Listen to me, I'm a doctor, allegedly.