Originally posted by Magickesists
NO WAY? Theres no fricking way thats possible. I suggest to you if your just trying to stir up some responses then you'll do a damn good job but at least read the etiquette please.

Honest, I'm not trying to stir up any responses. I've read the etiquette at least twice. I've had a lot of crazy things happen in my life and I feel more comfortable talking about them here than most other places.

In my experience with the occult, I have delved into most aspects at one point or another. I'm certainly not an exclusive necromancer, but there are many aspects of my spirituality and how I practice that could fall under the heading of necromancy.

Is it inherently evil? No. Necromancy can have many good effects as well as the obvious evil ones. Necromancy can be used to help a soul find rest after years of being at unrest. Necromancy can help to divine the wisdom of ancestors and others who came before us to aid us in our own lives. The applications of necromancy are about as varied as people's opinions on it.

Is it something to be taken lightly? That's a resounding NO! Necromancy is something that really should not be attempted by a novice. People who attempt necromancy without the aid of many years of experience in other occult practices can very possibly make mistakes, summon things they don't want to summon, bring things forth that shouldn't be allowed back into this mortal coil. Inexperienced practictioners who experiment with necromancy will often end up "haunted" themselves, as they have somehow managed to bring forth or allow something harmful to come through the "gateways" opened during necromantic practices, the most dangerous of which being your own mind. There are a great many risks with necromancy, even to the experienced occultist, let alone to the inexperienced.

If you are interested in learning more about necromancy and how it is performed, find a group of occultists practicing around Samhain - pronounced Sow-win (halloween for everyone else). This is the pagan New Years, and is the time when the veil between the physical and spirit worlds is the thinnest, allowing for virtually free passage between the worlds (it's also worth noting that the popular idea of ghosties and ghoulies on halloween is due to this holiday, as well as the concept of wearing costumes... in the past, people used to dress as ghosts and ghouls in an attempt to be left alone by the real entities that passed between the worlds on this night). A typical Samhain ritual will involve contact between the living and the ancestors who passed before for advice, updates, etc. - sort of like a family reunion with family members who are dead, sometimes for many generations. Don't necessarily expect Grandpa Cyrus to visit you, but more likely they will be ancestors you've never heard about. The reason I urge you to do this in a group of experienced occultists is because many of them have done this before, and usually will install some sort of protection against "undesireable" sprits coming into the circle.

Please, if it is your first time, don't try it alone.

I refuse to bail out anyone who doesn't heed my advice.

(Disclaimer: I do not wish a theological discussion on this. The person that posed this question did so because he was obviously interested in the subject, and will probably at least research it further regardless of whether or not your diety of choice says it's right or wrong. Therefore, I am simply trying to offer some guidance here so that the young lad won't kill himself in the process of discovery.)

(edited for clarity... I've been drinking)

[edit on 1/30/2005 by obsidian468]

George Noory did an interview with an some professor and got into ancient beliefs about the underworld, including necromancy and ghosts and such.

I don't remember the date but the show aired in December.
Go to www.coasttocoastam.com in the top left there is a link for "more past shows". click 2004, then december, then scroll down till you find the show on ancient ghosts or some such title.
You can play the show right from his webpage

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
If any of this is true I dont think it would be inherently good or evil. It would all depend on the person and the way that person used it.

The energies sympathise with the person. If you are a passative, spiritual, happy, 'good' person - for the most part, that's what is drawn to you. The nasty, vandictive jerk who wnats to better life for only himself will generaly get the nasy tricksters and lieing sorts.

Originally posted by Vertu
That's clear. But why the heck would the dead spirits know the future? Why would they be smarter than we are?! It doesn't make sense. Why would those spirits be able to think at all? Do they have a brain?

The energies do know some future. They can precieve the past and future just as they do the presant. And smarter than us? Well, a person that was very low in intellegence here doesn't 'get smart' in death - but they do become more knowing and seeing than we are here. So a guy named joe who is less than the average bear here compared to you, in death (provided you are still living) - he is more knowledgeable than you.
Do they have a brain? No - a brain is physical. They do have a mind - which is not physical.

Anyway, enough replying to the replies and back to the origonal post.
I've come up with some pictures. I don't think any of them would win a prize or sell at a art show though.
I will say this - and this is NOT something else drawing or creating art -
There are times when I am more artisitc in music, writing and drawing/painting when I'm in a altered state of mind (not drugs - just 'between channels'.

Anyway, enough replying to the replies and back to the origonal post.
I've come up with some pictures. I don't think any of them would win a prize or sell at a art show though.
I will say this - and this is NOT something else drawing or creating art -
There are times when I am more artisitc in music, writing and drawing/painting when I'm in a altered state of mind (not drugs - just 'between channels'.

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
Saint4god - we realize that you are a Christian. It appears that you accept the Christian Bible as the only source of information. Please understand that not everyone feels the same way. Not everyone believes in the Christian Bible.

Why are you trying to position me as a naive, close-minded individual? I never assumed everyone believes in the Bible. If that were true, why would I need to speak at all?

Tell me again what existed before God?

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
Please note that I said the Christian God/Bible. To elaborate, what I am talking about is the Christian concept of what God is and wants us to do.

The 'Christian God' dates back to the beginning of the universe. Please don't push your belief that something older exists.

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
I don’t think you understand magic. This is not a putdown or even sarcasm. I just don’t believe that you truly understand it, nor would I expect you to do so.

I agree most Christians do not because they were wise enough not to travel down that path. I am here to warn them not to pursue because of my experience, generated from personal accounts and witnesses. What harm is there in that caution? What reason is there to suppress someone who does so?

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
Pagan’s actually don’t believe in Satan or demons, I said that summoning them isn’t necromancy because I do not believe they exist in the first place.

I didn't say they did, just giving another perspective to help our friend.

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
So you believe that evil matches really do exist?

You're analogy does not fit in this case. I can compare the floor to the sky, but it doesn't make it a good comparisson.

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
I would never try to change anyone’s opinion, you are entitled to yours, and me to mine.

Good, we're on the same page then.

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
I simply get tired of being told what Paganism and magic are by people who do not practice them.

I never mentioned Paganism. Please do not get offended by things I do not say. From the Pagans I know, they do not 'own magik' (correct me if I'm wrong), therefore you voiced your view on magik and I've voiced mine.



[edit on 31-1-2005 by saint4God]

I try to live my life by the rules in the bible, and the bible says not to dabble in the occult. I think that if you try to summon the dead, you are opening some doors that should not be opened.

Originally posted by Blueangel7
I try to live my life by the rules in the bible, and the bible says not to dabble in the occult. I think that if you try to summon the dead, you are opening some doors that should not be opened.

YES! I ditto that!!!!!
Anything that is given to you, I believe, is a gift to be used AS A SERVICE TO OTHERS - Not, I repeat, NOT something to try to be famous for or to make money at etc. We are all given tallents and gifts. Some of those tallents and gifts are the likes of these things. Those who sit with candles and spell books and draw pentegrams(sp) etc trying to elict something they were not given freely - I would be afraid that is blatenly sinful and I wouldn't chance it.
I can look back over 35 years of dealing with these things and what I will tell you next is very true and seemingly the 'key'. It is when you are spiritualy in tune, spiritualy right with (for me, God - but to be 'politicaly correct I will also add in "your creator/higher power") - that these things flow and grow. It is when you are unslefish and want His will that these things are given so very much more.

I was reading about enochian magic today and i noticed it is called the magic of angels. First are angels spirits of dead people. If so wouldn't that meen that enochian magic is necromancy. And also it said that the founder of enochian magic (enoch) was accepted into heaven before he died. He is apparently the only human to ever have accomplished this. This is given in 5:24 of genisis Not sure about any of it though as the dabbling in the occult is forbidden but yet enochian magic is accepted as the true magic according to the bible and scrying sessions of some guy i can't remember i'll get more details tomorrow sorry i couldn't be more specific.

Originally posted by Magickesists
And also it said that the founder of enochian magic (enoch) was accepted into heaven before he died. He is apparently the only human to ever have accomplished this.

John 3:16 (and all related verses/gospels) states anyone who is a believer is accepted into heaven before they die.

Originally posted by saint4God
Why are you trying to position me as a naive, close-minded individual?

I am not trying to paint you as a naïve, close-minded individual. I am merely saying you appear to be on a spiritual path that, for you, is firmly established. You answer questions based upon Christian scripture, as I believe your faith dictates you should. I simply needed to point out that there are other ideologies, that for their followers, are just as firmly established as yours is for you.

The 'Christian God' dates back to the beginning of the universe. Please don't push your belief that something older exists.

Maybe I didn’t state myself plainly enough on this. What I am trying to say is that people had spiritual practices before Jesus’ birth. People worshipped and had spiritual practices before the Christian Bible was in mass circulation and before the term “Christianity” came into use. Some of those people and some of their practices were indeed Pagan.

Originally posted by saint4God
What harm is there in that caution? What reason is there to suppress someone who does so?

Most people are aware that Christians don't approve of magic of the type of which this thread addresses. You can warn all you want, but there comes a time when you begin to beleaguer the point. When you quote my post and say that I am wrong because the Christian Bible says so, this is more than a warning to the originator of the thread. This is a confrontation with me.

Originally posted by saint4God
You're analogy does not fit in this case. I can compare the floor to the sky, but it doesn't make it a good comparisson.

When one sees magic as a tool, it is a tool for them. Tools have no will of their own, they do as they are made to do by their users. For someone who sees magic as a tool, this is a good analogy.

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
I would never try to change anyone’s opinion, you are entitled to yours, and me to mine.

Originally posted by saint4God
Good, we're on the same page then.

Not quite. I was simply answering the original poster’s question with my views and you began to quote me and shoot down what I had to say. You took it upon yourself to single some of us out for “correction.” This implies that your opinion is more valid than mine. I am sure that for Christians, your opinion is more valid than mine, but once again we already know that Christians do not claim to practice magic. I doubt that anyone on ATS would have to start a thread to find this out.

Originally posted by saint4God
I never mentioned Paganism. Please do not get offended by things I do not say. From the Pagans I know, they do not 'own magik' (correct me if I'm wrong), therefore you voiced your view on magik and I've voiced mine.

I mentioned Paganism because I do not know of any other groups that use magic as a spiritual practice. Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Hindu, just to name a few - I know these don’t claim to use magic. I use Pagan in a broad sense which includes those who practice magic. No one owns it as it can’t be owned. I simply don’t know of any other group or classification that claims its use. If the use of magic is practiced by some group that is not Pagan please tell me about this group. It would be enlightening for me.

I am a Unitarian Universalist Pagan. I value the inherit worth and dignity of all people, whether or not I agree with them. I attend a church full of Pagans, Christians, Jews, Agnostics, Atheists (yes Atheist in church!) Buddhists, B’Hai, and many others. We need not think alike to love alike. I guess I am used to being around a group of people that share information without anyone ever telling anyone else they are wrong. I suppose I am spoiled in that area.

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
I am not trying to paint you as a naïve, close-minded individual.

The language you used heavily suggested such.

Originally posted by wellwhatnow

The 'Christian God' dates back to the beginning of the universe. Please don't push your belief that something older exists.

Maybe I didn’t state myself plainly enough on this. What I am trying to say is that people had spiritual practices before Jesus’ birth. People worshipped and had spiritual practices before the Christian Bible was in mass circulation and before the term “Christianity” came into use. Some of those people and some of their practices were indeed Pagan.

That clarifies it, which is not what was said originally. Thank you.

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
Most people are aware that Christians don't approve of magic of the type of which this thread addresses.

Some aren't, which is one of the reasons I'm here.

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
You can warn all you want, but there comes a time when you begin to beleaguer the point. When you quote my post and say that I am wrong because the Christian Bible says so, this is more than a warning to the originator of the thread. This is a confrontation with me.

My apologies if my challenge seemed confrontational. I'm not interested in 'starting a fight'. I will question to see if I can understand where people are coming from, though didn't intend on being abrasive.

Originally posted by wellwhatnow

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
I would never try to change anyone’s opinion, you are entitled to yours, and me to mine.

Originally posted by saint4God
Good, we're on the same page then.

Not quite. I was simply answering the original poster’s question with my views and you began to quote me and shoot down what I had to say. You took it upon yourself to single some of us out for “correction.”

I will challenge things that do not look right. Again, not meaning to offend or make anyone feel unimportant.

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
This implies that your opinion is more valid than mine.

I hope that my opinion has no play in this at all. The goal is to reveal the facts.

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
I am sure that for Christians, your opinion is more valid than mine, but once again we already know that Christians do not claim to practice magic.

Some do, they are here, I'm trying to help.

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
I simply don’t know of any other group or classification that claims its use. If the use of magic is practiced by some group that is not Pagan please tell me about this group. It would be enlightening for me.

Satanism. Also, one does not have to label themselves Pagan or believe as Pagans to practice necessarily.

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
I am a Unitarian Universalist Pagan. I value the inherit worth and dignity of all people, whether or not I agree with them. I attend a church full of Pagans, Christians, Jews, Agnostics, Atheists (yes Atheist in church!) Buddhists, B’Hai, and many others. We need not think alike to love alike. I guess I am used to being around a group of people that share information without anyone ever telling anyone else they are wrong. I suppose I am spoiled in that area.

To say that no-one is wrong is to say that there is no right. In school, when the answer was incorrect, did not the teacher let you know so that you could arrive at the correct answer? The Christians in your group must have missed some important parts of the Bible that they believe in. If you love them and wish to strengthen their faith, please share with them:

Matt 12:15 "Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division."

Next question then is, what kind of division? Consider this parable:

Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him and he will separate the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
Then the King will say to those on his right 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheretance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creaton of the world..."
Matt 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devils and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me."

Okay okay, so there is a division...but can't we worship with Pagans? Let's see what Jesus says again:

Matt 6:7 "And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words"

Hm, pagans pray differently...

Do the Christians believe in Jesus and the words he spoke above?

How about:

2 Corinthians 6:14 "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righeousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: 'I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.'
'Therefore come out from them and be separate. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you.' says the Lord. 'I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."

Don't get me wrong, I love all my brothers and sisters be they Wiccan, Atheist, Satanic, Agnostic, Buddist, etc. but per all the reasons, it looks like we're not to be in the same house of worship.

Help your fellow church members who are Christian to know what is written. I'd be interested in hearing what they have to say.

I give up saint4God - You are still speaking as if the Christian Bible is the only sacred text instead of understanding that it is but one of many sacred texts and one of many ideologies. It is not me that makes you look narrow minded.

Originally posted by saint4God
If you love them and wish to strengthen their faith, please share with them . . .Help your fellow church members who are Christian to know what is written.

No. The Christians in my church are quite literate and they have maintained the unique ability to think for themselves. Also, I have not taken it upon myself to tell others what to believe. I will share opinions when I am asked, but my religion doesn't dictate that I push people.

I have read enough of your scripture, I leave you with some of mine.
He who gives in ends the quarrel.

I'll end it here. Since this has gotten really out of hand and away from the original thread topic, I am through with it. You can stay here and preach all you want and I'll stop trying to work this out. If anyone here wants genuine information on magic from someone who actually practices it, they now know who to U2U.

I'm going to go a bit out on a limb in saying this, but I feel that it needs to be said. This discussion has gotten so horribly off topic of late that I've all but stopped reading it. Personally, I find this a wholly interesting topic to those that can keep an open mind and offer advice to the author of the original post. Unfortunately, there have been those in here that have seen fit to start a total religious debate, and lose sight of the original topic. The one I've seen doing this the most is "saint4God". It is this type of close minded rhetoric that has started many wars in the past (anyone remember any of the Crusades?). This is a day and age where openmindedness is key to survival in the world. There are infinite possibilities and infinite solutions to infinite questions out there. Most of us are on ATS because we acknowledge that, and wish to find out the truth. Most of us keep an open mind to many things, and while some things can be proven false (and often are), we all know that there are certain things that can be discussed until we're blue in the face, and yet still never come to a concrete answer. Religion is one of these topics. Religion is the type of thing that differs from person to person, from religion to religion. There's even, often times, people within the same Christian parish that have different interpretations of the bible.

I am not a Christian, though I was raised as one. My reasons for leaving the Christian church are mine and only to be discussed with those I feel are worth the discussion. It is nobody's right to push their religious beliefs on anyone else, as they differ so much. My spiritual beliefs differ from probably just about everyone else on here, and if someone wants to know what my beliefs are, I will discuss them, but not tell them, "This is what's right, you MUST believe it, or suffer some dire consequence."

This thread is asking about information regarding a type of "supernatural" activity that is often not based in religion. This is not a religious discussion, so leave your beliefs out of it.

Religious zealotism leads to nothing more than arguments and wars. Religious openmindedness (or at least simple respect) leads to a good discussion, and peaceful, intelligent conversation on a given topic. Respect my beliefs, and respect the beliefs of those around you. They're respecting yours.

They are all things that cannot be seen and are real. Each of these are related by having polar opposites, that's what a lot of us are here to find out, right? Wise people can hear and discern. Others not so wise such as myself have to experience to learn. All I ask is that one takes the interest to find out which is which without having to have negative, permanent experiences. Available for U2U if anyone needs help.

Pray, train, study.
God bless.

If you're some christian zaelot, or an ignoramus, sure it's evil. But otherwise, you're simply talking to the ddead, which isn't nessecarily evil. SPirits magick is a part of many religions and cultures, unless you consider voodoo and the such evil

I know, this is a very, very late reply. Im not trying to bump this thread, but the concept of good and evil has always sparked controversy.


I would first like to say, I dont believe in either concept. there is no good or evil. If you do something, your not doing it specificaly to be evil, your doing it because you believe it is necesary or important. We war all the time. When we went to war with germany in WWII. did we consider it evil? No. But they sure as hell did.

Im just saying good/evil is a matter of perspective.

Not to mention, Necromancy used to be one of the highest forms of divination in persia. Once the church started prosecuting necromancy and its practitioners, they changed the name to 'nigromancy' meaning 'black magic'. It wasn't always considered this evil dark raising of the dead ritual stuff. (although some rituals consist of this...)


Personaly i find the subject more fascinating than viable, but to each his own i guess.

I'm bit late to this, but there have been some almost brilliant replies here. And the hammer analogy was just excellent, considering the name of the document written by the church and used to persecute witches....I had to smile at that one...

Anyway...here's my penny's worth. I'm a necromancer. Not all the time, not even that often, but I do it when I need to, and sometimes it happens spontaneously. It's not evil, it's not a dark art, it's just connection with people who have moved on, and cannot communicate any other way. If we live the way we should, keep our channels clear, and keep intention pure, we shouldn't have a problem. Protection needs to be learned, and practised regularly, and without fail if attempting to contact, and the whole practise needs time, support from others, and above all repetition, to make it work.

It's not magic, although it can be, and I don't work in any ritual way to summon spirits...it's a much more mundane method that is just as effective, and actually safer and more reliable. Personally, I would steer clear of any magical method unless you REALLY know what you're doing...they are highly volatile events and can go horribly wrong in totally unexpected ways, with all the wrong people turning up....