I'm trying to read up on this type of thing, to see what it is all about. When I'm done learing the general idea I may try some of then spells/rituals. Just out of curiousity what type of magic have you attempted/performed?

Necromancy can be a pretty broad term...

Some think it just involves communicating with the dead.

Others believe it to be magic performed by drawing from a person/animal's life force.

With the first definition, no, not evil in and of itself (though evil entities could be contacted).

With the second definition, it's USUALLY evil, unless you are drawing from a person's life energy with their PERMISSION. Such a case would be for example, a healthy person agreeing to lend some of their energy to someone else who is sick/injured for healing purposes. That would be a GOOD use of it. However, most such necromancy is more evil, and uses the life energy of animals, etc. to power magic, such as some voodoo, etc. This kind of magic is inherently evil in my opinion...and draws on negative energy.

Granted, I'm not a practicioner myself... Based on my own experiences of dabbling with magic at a young age, I think I'm just fine studying it as a pastime, thanks, hehe.... I don't trust myself enough NOT to do negative things with it...but at least I can admit it to myself.

Yeah the stuff could probably mess you up real bad if you use it improperly. but then again wouldn't using the energy of animals be somewhat like ritual sacrifice that was used to appease the gods in some religions. Or what about the mayans who did human sacrifice hmmmm? there seems to be a bit of variety on this subject.

Well, as someone who at least used to put a lot of stock in the bible- I am very curious about necromancy because it is given credit in the bible. It is expressly forbidden and is punishable by death. Witches have been consulted by leaders of Israel (I forget who exactly- look up "the witch of endor" and you'll find it).
I've often been tempted to play with the occult and see what that does to bury or confirm my religious beliefs which I have come to question in recent years. I am somewhat disturbed by stories from people I know and trust who are very convinced of the existence of demons by personal experience they refuse to discuss, mostly related to ouija boards and exorcisms.

If I might contribute a little hearsay here as well- I have heard a story from someone i know about a certain old man who my friend believes may be into some form of necromancy.
The man is in his late sixties but looks remarkably youthful- he could pass for 20+ years younger than he is, and it seems like people who come into casual but regular contact with him or his family die unnaturally quite often.

I could ask for more details but with this particular friend it is fairly common for me to be entrusted with information that I am not to share or at least not to accredit to anyone, so I don't know how much detail I'll be given or if this person will feel comfortable with me talking about it to others. I guess my friend does not want their "loose lips" to become common knowledge because of certain thin connections to people of mild celebrity or authority.

Originally posted by Mxyztos
I'm just wondering people's opinions on this art.

Total thumbs down. Looking for this kind of trouble will lead to finding nothing but trouble.

Originally posted by Mxyztos
Wheither or not it is an evil art or not

Yes. Besides, what good advice does the dead have? "Don't do what I did?" I can tell you that and I'm still alive.

Originally posted by Mxyztos
...Although I'm sure this fact has alot to do with what you are trying to accomplish.

No, but it does have everything to do with the source of 'power'. If you don't see where the power is coming from, I advise you look real hard. These things are very deceptive and can lead to a lot of harm.

Pray, train, study.
God Bless

[edit on 22-1-2005 by saint4God]

Don't flip out, I'm just stirring the pot here- I'm not promoting satanism.
But what ever said that power not of God is evil?
Has anyone ever considered that maybe nothing God does is really "magic", even when it actually falls under the common definition of magik?

Suppose that all miracles and seemingly supernatural events are perfectly explainable by God's design of the universe, and that if you knew the secrets you could manipulate the universe the same way God can, because he has designed it to work on rules and not on mystical "manifestations".

Or suppose that God had a rival who is represented to us as the devil, when in fact neither is more powerful nor is either of them good or evil? Afterall, why would God create an enemy for himself?

I'm just trying to see all of the angles- i'm wondering what people who are knowledgeable about magic and the occult will have to say about this. If the other explanations don't follow principles that can be observed in other areas of reality then they lose some credibility, but alternate explanations which seem to mesh with our observations about the universe were to be offered, then we might have a clue as to the nature of magic.

The Vagabond has just written a somewhat accurate description of Paganism, which has been practiced since long before the time of the Christian God/Bible. Way to go Vagabond!

Necromancy is simply consulting the dead. This is not evil.

I know many Catholics who believe in various Saints. These saints died long ago, and the Catholics pray to those saints. This is Necromancy.
Using EVP is Necromancy. Seances are Necromancy.

Summoning "demons" is not necromancy and either is "psychic vampirism."

Again I have to stress that there is no such thing as black magic or evil magic. Magic is the power, it is what you intend to do with that power that could be classified as good or evil. Then it comes down to good intentions/outcomes vs. evil intentions/outcomes. That is up to the person who uses the power and is not up to the power itself.

It makes as much sense as saying that the matches used in our bar b que pits are good matches, but the matches used in arson are evil matches.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
But what ever said that power not of God is evil?

God does say in Exodus not to worship anything other than Him, in Leviticus not to practice sorcery and especially:

1 John 4:1 "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out of the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God.

1 John 4:6 "We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood."

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Has anyone ever considered that maybe nothing God does is really "magic", even when it actually falls under the common definition of magik?

The happenings in my life I'd consider "paranormal" to me, but I'm sure to Him it's nothing new.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Suppose that all miracles and seemingly supernatural events are perfectly explainable by God's design of the universe, and that if you knew the secrets you could manipulate the universe the same way God can, because he has designed it to work on rules and not on mystical "manifestations".

Hm....playing God...trying to be competition? Not me. Even sounds like a bad motivation.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Or suppose that God had a rival who is represented to us as the devil, when in fact neither is more powerful nor is either of them good or evil?

God makes it clear there is no equal. By taking the advice the Bible has to offer, one can see how it is good. A faithful Christian can even trust and apply the Word even when they don't see how it will turn out right, but in fact, it does work for good. It's hard sometimes having in one hand what you want to do and in the other that which is the right thing to do.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Afterall, why would God create an enemy for himself?

God gave his creation choice. We choose to follow God, or to pursue evil.

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
The Vagabond has just written a somewhat accurate description of Paganism, which has been practiced since long before the time of the Christian God/Bible.

Tell me again what existed before God?

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
Necromancy is simply consulting the dead.

Um, consulting is one facet.

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
This is not evil.

Yes it is.

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
I know many Catholics who believe in various Saints. These saints died long ago, and the Catholics pray to those saints. This is Necromancy.

I'm unfamiliar with this practice so I cannot speak to it.

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
Using EVP is Necromancy.

I don't see where the 'magik' part of this is unless you're calling upon, invoking or evoking them to speak or show themselves.

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
Seances are Necromancy.

Agreed.

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
Summoning "demons" is not necromancy

Correct. Demons aren't 'dead' though practices can be combined I'm sure.

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
and either is "psychic vampirism."

Agreed.

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
Again I have to stress that there is no such thing as black magic or evil magic.

These are descriptive words or classifications for actual practices.

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
Magic is the power, it is what you intend to do with that power that could be classified as good or evil. Then it comes down to good intentions/outcomes vs. evil intentions/outcomes. That is up to the person who uses the power and is not up to the power itself. It makes as much sense as saying that the matches used in our bar b que pits are good matches, but the matches used in arson are evil matches.

Disagreed per points I've been belabouring.

[edit on 24-1-2005 by saint4God]

but then again wouldn't using the energy of animals be somewhat like ritual sacrifice that was used to appease the gods in some religions. Or what about the mayans who did human sacrifice hmmmm? there seems to be a bit of variety on this subject.

Again, I would say that most modern practicioners of the art would say that using the life force of an animal or person, without their permission, is evil. In the case of a WILLING sacrifice, by definition it would NOT be an evil act....oddly enough. Basically boils down to negative or positive energy being used in the particular ritual...

Originally posted by saint4God
God does say in Exodus not to worship anything other than Him, in Leviticus not to practice sorcery and especially:

I understand what God says my friend. I came within a hill-billy's heartbeat of attending Biola and becoming a Baptist pastor.

I'm just offering for the sake of discussion that maybe God didn't really create "evil" because theologically that's always been a really tricky subject. What if...
A. Evil is just as old and as powerful as God and existed independently, but God wouldn't leave us the temptation of taking evil's side by telling us that.
B. There is no good or evil, just multiple rival gods or other beings posing as gods who are competing for influence over us?

I don't have any problem with people having faith in the bible, but it's a tremendous stretch to ask somebody who doesn't have faith in it to accept it as evidence. How do I know that it's not just some ancient shepherd's bedtime stories or maybe even a collection of "devine" lies from one of several "gods"?

The happenings in my life I'd consider "paranormal" to me, but I'm sure to Him it's nothing new.

Again, nothing wrong with having faith, but maybe it wasn't him or even them. Maybe it was just joe schmo using unknown "supernatural" principles which God uses as well.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Hm....playing God...trying to be competition? Not me. Even sounds like a bad motivation.

Good or bad is another matter, but could it be possible. The bible acknowledges the existence of supernatural power not from God. Now if I can make prophecy, perform miracles, etc etc etc and not need God's help, that would indicate that just as he has done with science, God has caused the world to function according to rules.
God himself says in Genesis that if man had eaten from the tree of life we would have become like God. (actually he said "us" which suggests multiple gods, but that's another matter.)

Originally posted by The Vagabond
God makes it clear there is no equal.

That's what I'd say if I was trying to win your favor from somebody I wasn't more powerful than. Richard Nixon made it clear that he wasn't a crook, but that didn't exactly bear out did it? On one hand we have demonstrations of power not granted by God. On the other hand we have what God tells us. For those who haven't placed their trust in God it's hardly an open and shut case.

By taking the advice the Bible has to offer, one can see how it is good. A faithful Christian can even trust and apply the Word even when they don't see how it will turn out right, but in fact, it does work for good.

Christianity isn't the only religion to make this claim though. When I was in boot camp I relied on my Christian faith at the time and it worked nicely. A Muslim recruit in my platoon got through just as well leaning on his own faith. I bet even "Chicken Soup for the Soul" can make this claim.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
God gave his creation choice. We choose to follow God, or to pursue evil.

The choice is one thing, the devil is another. God knows everything, God is all powerful, God can not do and can not tollerate evil, and as such has no choice but to condemn us despite his immeasurable love for us if we refuse salvation, and God never changes his mind....
BUT even though he knew the devil was evil and even though God can not do or tollerate evil, he created the devil. He made his own enemy?
When Jesus was accussed of casting out demons by the power of satan he asked "How can Satan cast out Satan". Yet Good made Evil because he thought it good to give us a choice? I though the bible explicity said "do not say let us do evil that good may result".
To my mind, George Carlin had it right when he said that in any decently run universe this guy would have been out on his all powerful arse a long time ago.

I understand that matters of faith are always highly personal and subjective, so I'm not claiming that I can "prove" that anyone should or shouldn't see this my way. I'm just trying to show you how it is that I could have my doubts and how it is that pagan beliefs could seem reasonable to those who have faith in them.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
I understand what God says my friend. I came within a hill-billy's heartbeat of attending Biola and becoming a Baptist pastor.

What made you want to become a pastor?
What had you decide to go military instead?

[edit on 24-1-2005 by saint4God]

Saint4god - we realize that you are a Christian. It appears that you accept the Christian Bible as the only source of information. Please understand that not everyone feels the same way. Not everyone believes in the Christian Bible.

Tell me again what existed before God?

Please note that I said the Christian God/Bible. To elaborate, what I am talking about is the Christian concept of what God is and wants us to do.

I don't see where the 'magik' part of this is unless you're calling upon, invoking or evoking them to speak or show themselves.

I don’t think you understand magic. This is not a putdown or even sarcasm. I just don’t believe that you truly understand it, nor would I expect you to do so.

Correct. Demons aren't 'dead' though practices can be combined I'm sure.

Pagan’s actually don’t believe in Satan or demons, I said that summoning them isn’t necromancy because I do not believe they exist in the first place.

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
Magic is the power, it is what you intend to do with that power that could be classified as good or evil. Then it comes down to good intentions/outcomes vs. evil intentions/outcomes. That is up to the person who uses the power and is not up to the power itself. It makes as much sense as saying that the matches used in our bar b que pits are good matches, but the matches used in arson are evil matches.

Disagreed per points I've been belabouring.

So you believe that evil matches really do exist?

I would never try to change anyone’s opinion, you are entitled to yours, and me to mine. I simply get tired of being told what Paganism and magic are by people who do not practice them.

[edit on 1/24/05 by wellwhatnow]

i don't believe analogies that are simple can be used to describe magic. Plain and simple is not what magic is. We don't know the source of its power or the energy for certain therefore saying it is a product of god or a product of our own mind is nothing but presumptious. The pagans believed in many things and i think that there version of a demon was just a spirit or mythical creature that like to cause mischeif. Much the same way loki is the god of mischeif for the norse.

u'll nv know wats wat u'll encounter..

perhaps u gotta sacrafice a part of you.

there's always payment. it has always been like this.

this aint a joke.

Originally posted by 666NumberoftheDevil
u'll nv know wats wat u'll encounter..

perhaps u gotta sacrafice a part of you.

there's always payment. it has always been like this.

this aint a joke.

No offense friend, but if you're able to I think we'd all like to hear you go into a little more detail, preferably with the use of whole words, properly spelled where possible.

Originally posted by Magickesists
i don't believe analogies that are simple can be used to describe magic. Plain and simple is not what magic is. We don't know the source of its power or the energy for certain therefore saying it is a product of god or a product of our own mind is nothing but presumptious. The pagans believed in many things and i think that there version of a demon was just a spirit or mythical creature that like to cause mischeif. Much the same way loki is the god of mischeif for the norse.

What I write is simply the opinion of a Pagan who does practice magic. I know that Christians will disagree with it but they have that right and it's not as if I am trying to promote the use of magic to those who believe it is wrong.

Magic does not need to be complicated. It really can be plain and simple. Necromancy can get a bit sticky and complex, but for some people even necromancy is not complex.

As for the source of this power, those who practice magic do know it's source, and so we presume nothing. Again I realize that Christians will not agree.

As for demons, they had been mentioned a couple of times in this thread and it seemed to me that the type being refered to were the Biblical sort - minions of satan. Of course there are Pagans who believed in Loki as an entity of mischief. I think that is a little different than the demons of which Christians speak. The average Pagan would no more try to summon Loki than the average Christian would attempt to summon a demon.

Originally posted by 666NumberoftheDevil
u'll nv know wats wat u'll encounter..

perhaps u gotta sacrafice a part of you.

there's always payment. it has always been like this.

this aint a joke.

You're absolutely right. Just because it's simply put, does not make it cryptic. Just read it as it says, it applies to the whole field.

Personnally, I would like to hear an experience that this wisdom came from though. It may help illustrate the point. If you'd rather not on the board, I can totally understand why.

[edit on 26-1-2005 by saint4God]

[edit on 26-1-2005 by saint4God]

I know this is way down at the bottom of the page, but I felt the need to post this. To my knowledge, it falls under necromancy (Raising the dead, right?).

For the past few weeks, a friend of mine (Let's call him Brad.) seemed depressed and was easily angered. One night he was looking to suicide as an answer. Brian (name has been changed), another friend of mine, was persuading him not to take his life and using all the psychology techniques in the book to prevent him from killing himself. However, it didn't work and Brad killed himself. Brian, a first time necromancer but old psion, brought him back to life.

Brad has said he won't tell us if he tries to take his life again and won't communicate with us. I'm going to try to find out exactly where he lives and talk with his parents.

[edit on 1/29/05 by Otto_States]

NO WAY? Theres no fricking way thats possible. I suggest to you if your just trying to stir up some responses then you'll do a damn good job but at least read the etiquette please.