President Trump! Thank you for making America Great Again!

originally posted by: DAVID64
And just exactly how much experience did Obama have when he was elected? A very short term Senator and a community organizer before that.
Trump has business sense and a broad range of contacts in the political world. Every one wants to say it'll be a mess, but honestly, can he really be any worse than Obama?

Expert on constitutional law
10 years in the Illinois State Legislature
1 term Senator

originally posted by: swanne
a reply to: onequestion

Funny how suddenly everyone can root for a member of the 1%.

He claims he'll bring down the Establishment (whatever that means coming from someone who made his fortune in there), and suddenly he's the hero who will save everyone.

All I see is just dozens of promises from a presidential candidate. nothing new under the sun...

Is Berny Sanders not the best option for the US and its citizens..?

a reply to: DeadFoot

I am saying that a system that provides a means for us to work for a living, and pay our own way, including paying off our own education, is a satisfying way of life.

It feels good to do things for ourselves. It is satisfying when you accomplish something such as graduating college, paying off a debt, getting a job, starting a business, etc. It's fulfilling to feel like you are working hard and seeing that you can take of yourself.

If you expect to have everything just handed to you throughout life with no effort, you are going to be a sad, unsatisfied person. I think that is what the issue is with our society today. So many people feel entitled to handouts that they don't see that this is not the road to happiness. It is a path to dependency, and a lack of feelings of self-worth and accomplishment.

Those of you who put down the 1% are not seeing that many of them got that way through hard work. They know what it means to push yourself to your limits.

Don't limit yourselves and envy those who have accomplishments. Get out there and improve yourselves. Stop whining about what is not being handed to you and go out and get it for yourselves.

One example - I have relatives, husband and wife, never graduated high school. I remember a time when they lashed out at the rich, felt deprived. But, they worked hard. They used and developed skills in carpentry. They worked very hard for years, started their own business, expanded the business, hired people, kept going and working hard. They are now very well set, and could be considered 1%. They are still very down-to-earth and treat their employees well. They are proud of what they accomplished, and rightfully so. Are you going to try to say they don't deserve what they worked so hard for? Just because they found a way to make it?

There will be more opportunities to reach the point of self-fulfillment when the economy is better. A hard economy does make it harder to reach that point. That is why we need someone like Trump to lay the foundation for people to once again have pride in their lives. We do not need someone like Sanders who will just make people dependent on the government and reduce us to peons as if we can not do for ourselves.

originally posted by: Metallicus
a reply to: onequestion

I agree with you.

I don't like the man, but I respect him. He will actually be a huge improvement over the wuss we have in office now.

Yep. For eight years straight now. Well, if it takes a wuss to be the US president for eight straight years in a row, I guess that the American people just love a wuss

a reply to: BlueAjah

So, let's see: in your opinion working hard pays off and may eventually make you part of the one percent? Tell that to the poor sap that has to work 12 hours each day and still needs food stamps to survive..

Methinks you paint an overly pretty picture of the benefits of working hard. But actually, working hard only marginally influences your position in society. The factors that determine where you end up are luck, health, and talents. In that order.

And note that a person can only marginally influence this. You may say "of course he does, he can simply choose to work hard" - but that already requires talents he might not have: born defunct, or in the wrong place, with bad genes, bad parents.. see, you don't get to choose your parents, the place you are born, your talents, your health, your sex, your features, skin colour, size, genes, not even the time you are born in. It is because of this ubiquitous unfairness - the cosmic lottery - and from the realisation that it might just as well have been me that drew the short stick instead of you, I'm a socialist.

The ones that are lucky, healthy and talented should take care of the ones not so lucky, healthy and talented. And I don't mean shooting them dead

originally posted by: ForteanOrg
a reply to: BlueAjah

So, let's see: in your opinion working hard pays off and may eventually make you part of the one percent? Tell that to the poor sap that has to work 12 hours each day and still needs food stamps to survive..

Methinks you paint an overly pretty picture of the benefits of working hard. But actually, working hard only marginally influences your position in society. The factors that determine where you end up are luck, health, and talents. In that order.

And note that a person can only marginally influence this. You may say "of course he does, he can simply choose to work hard" - but that already requires talents he might not have: born defunct, or in the wrong place, with bad genes, bad parents.. see, you don't get to choose your parents, the place you are born, your talents, your health, your sex, your features, skin colour, size, genes, not even the time you are born in. It is because of this ubiquitous unfairness - the cosmic lottery - and from the realisation that it might just as well have been me that drew the short stick instead of you, I'm a socialist.

The ones that are lucky, healthy and talented should take care of the ones not so lucky, healthy and talented. And I don't mean shooting them dead

I think it takes hard AND smart work to have a chance of making it to the 1% and no doubt connections.
Overall though i think the discussion about the 1% and 'lucky, healthy and talented' taking care of the not so lucky confuses the issue somewhat.

The top earners already take care of the lower earners at a record level.



The table above shows you just how much the hard working people who make it to not even the top 1% but the top 20% are subsidizing the lower income earners. They pay 84% of the total income and federal taxes received by the govt whilst only earning 51% of the overall income.

When you look closer at the top 20%, you find that those earning over $615k - some 3 million people , or the top 1% - pay 46% of the total income and federal tax received by the govt whilst only earning 17% of total income.



The 'top 1%' election rhetoric does not hold up to scrutiny. It's clear that the current system is unfair to richer people (top 5%) and the less well off are getting a free/easier ride.

Source

NOW we have to stop WWIII instead of the internal socialist attack.

a reply to: UKTruth

42 percent of your tax dollars are spend on the military (1.46 million people) and 8.7 percent on the poor (46.7 million people).

Now, let's see; WHOM where getting that free ride again?

originally posted by: ForteanOrg
a reply to: UKTruth

42 percent of your tax dollars are spend on the military (1.46 million people) and 8.7 percent on the poor (46.7 million people).

Now, let's see; WHOM where getting that free ride again?

Sources and data please.

This is the data I have on spending.



Your military spending percentage only accounts for discretionary spending and ignores the large chunks dedicated to social security, unemployment, medicare and health. In other words, over all, the richer get less of the spend and pay more than their fair share of tax.

Whichever way you cut it the system is largely in favour of the lower income groups.

This whole 'rich screwing over the poor' mantra is a complete sham. It's the other way around.

I don't doubt that the top 0.01% (elites) are screwing the system in their favour, but that is a different argument. That is to do with corruption and insider deals and bail outs benefiting very few people (which always happens in a socialist/communist society).

Here is the full representation:



Note the social security and medicare taxes shown as revenue - guess who pays the most (majority) of that? Yep, the top 20%.

a reply to: UKTruth

Note the social security and medicare taxes shown as revenue - guess who pays the most (majority) of that? Yep, the top 20%.

its not as if the rich ever get around the taxes, or dumping loads offshore where its untraceable.
just how many of the bottom 80% had money in panama?

originally posted by: stinkelbaum
a reply to: UKTruth

Note the social security and medicare taxes shown as revenue - guess who pays the most (majority) of that? Yep, the top 20%.

its not as if the rich ever get around the taxes, or dumping loads offshore where its untraceable.
just how many of the bottom 80% had money in panama?

You are talking about very few people. It does not change the fact that the system overall favours the lower incomes.

My view is that in a healthy society:

Talented and hard working people = comfortable life financially
Hard working people = decent life financially
Untalented and lazy people = supported with the bare minimum to survive, no luxuries

a reply to: ForteanOrg

I'm not sure you understood me.

The satisfaction and self-fulfillment come from working hard, doing your best, and knowing that you are making an honest living.

If you so choose to strive for more, to join the 1%, then you can if you really try, and work hard to gain the skills, or whatever else you need for your particular goal.

It is the accomplishment of doing something that makes you feel good, even if you get paid nothing.
If something is worth doing, such as supporting yourself and doing honest work, that can be enough to be happy.

I feel sorry for you if you don't understand that.

Getting stuff handed to you is not the path to self-fulfillment.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

I should add:

A better economy, with more manufacturing, and the effect that creates on all other areas of our economy, are what will solve that issue you describe where "poor sap that has to work 12 hours each day and still needs food stamps to survive". If there is more manufacturing, people can actually make a living wage without needing college.

Trump is the only candidate admitting to this, and with the guts to fix it.

You may be too young to remember what things were like when there were manufacturing jobs all over. Things were much better for everyone.

As for those that you say have the bad luck of situation, in most situations people can rise out of that if they are not lazy and have determination. Skills can be learned, etc.

We should always have some social benefits for those who truly can not work, such as severely disabled. But handing out welfare to every person who should be able to work is just going to create a society of dependents with no sense of self-worth.

...

originally posted by: UKTruthIt does not change the fact that the system overall favours the lower incomes.

Favours them? Well, if the upper 20 percent want to be favoured like that, I suggest they give up their stolen wealth and go live like a poor sap then. They'll be receiving all the nice benefits of being poor: having to work 2 jobs, being harassed by unsympathetic bosses, treated unfair and undecent and if they dare to say something about it, they can pack their things and go. They can have foodstamps whilst working their tails off at Walmarts, or flip burgers. And if they get fired, or ill, or both, well, why should they complain? The simply chose the wrong options, and they are on the receiving end in society anyway!

By Jove - you are a bit of an ignorant, are you..

My view is that in a healthy society:

Talented and hard working people = comfortable life financially
Hard working people = decent life financially
Untalented and lazy people = supported with the bare minimum to survive, no luxuries

Yeah. I mean, come on: being untalented, or being unable to work - these are simpy individual choices, right?

And who'd determine / define "lazyness?" - do you propose we should have a norm / standard for it and enforce it by Law? How about the spoiled brat that had the luck to be born in a rich family? Lazy? How about people that actually don't work but leave that to others, whilst making a handsome profit? Lazy? How about people that replace workers with machines and computers? Lazy? The steal other people's jobs - jobs that are so important in your world! What do you suggest we'd do: remove machines and computers and hence ensure that we all have to work like donkeys? Perhaps we should actually kill anybody that is not able to work - seems to be more human than your solution to make them barely survive..

What actually is the only important thing is to make as many people live their short lives as happy as we can. If it makes you happy to work hard - by all means, go ahead! But don't require others to do so too - they may be able to, but not willing (like e.g. the rich) or willing, but not able (e.g. the sick).

In a decent society, we don't have poor people, nor thieves that steal of others and call it "a handsome profit". Well, we still don't live in a decent society

a reply to: ForteanOrg

Sooooo....

Your solution is that if people want to be lazy they should be able to?
And those who work hard should be supporting these lazy people? (because..... lazy people deserve to be happy, and hardworking people don't?)

I truly, very much, feel sorry for you.
I doubt you will ever find happiness with such a bitter, hateful, twisted outlook on life.

But, I won't try to explain it to you any longer, because I doubt you will understand, because you choose not to.

originally posted by: BlueAjah
If you so choose to strive for more, to join the 1%, then you can if you really try, and work hard to gain the skills, or whatever else you need for your particular goal.

You still don't get it do you?

Really - you can work as hard as you want, but if you stay honest, you'll never make it into the upper 1st percent. To get into that, you need to be ruthless. You need to be able and willing to (legally) steal from others.

The decent guy that sets up a business will make a decent living and will help spread wealth around - many decent guys actually earn less then their employed, Kudos to them, but they aren't the top 1 percent. The top 1 percent don't care about anytihing as long as they get more money, more power - and they take great pride in employing just sufficient people, no more, and if they can earn a cent more by making you work harder whilst firing another guy, they will.

It is the accomplishment of doing something that makes you feel good, even if you get paid nothing.

We wholeheartedly agree here.

Well, it's clear that "hard work and determination" does not make one wealthy.

If that were true, there wouldn't be such a thing as the "1%".

It takes more than just a stellar work ethic and desire to achieve. They say luck and success happen at the intersection when opportunity and being prepared meet.

In order to be part of the 1%, you have to somehow do something 99% of the rest of humanity does not do, or possess what 99% of humanity does not have.

I mean, if you want to be like them -- you have to...well...be like them (the 1%). You have to do what they do, see the world as they see it, and act how they would act.

originally posted by: ForteanOrg

originally posted by: UKTruthIt does not change the fact that the system overall favours the lower incomes.

Favours them? Well, if the upper 20 percent want to be favoured like that, I suggest they give up their stolen wealth and go live like a poor sap then. They'll be receiving all the nice benefits of being poor: having to work 2 jobs, being harassed by unsympathetic bosses, treated unfair and undecent and if they dare to say something about it, they can pack their things and go. They can have foodstamps whilst working their tails off at Walmarts, or flip burgers. And if they get fired, or ill, or both, well, why should they complain? The simply chose the wrong options, and they are on the receiving end in society anyway!

By Jove - you are a bit of an ignorant, are you..

My view is that in a healthy society:

Talented and hard working people = comfortable life financially
Hard working people = decent life financially
Untalented and lazy people = supported with the bare minimum to survive, no luxuries

Yeah. I mean, come on: being untalented, or being unable to work - these are simpy individual choices, right?

And who'd determine / define "lazyness?" - do you propose we should have a norm / standard for it and enforce it by Law? How about the spoiled brat that had the luck to be born in a rich family? Lazy? How about people that actually don't work but leave that to others, whilst making a handsome profit? Lazy? How about people that replace workers with machines and computers? Lazy? The steal other people's jobs - jobs that are so important in your world! What do you suggest we'd do: remove machines and computers and hence ensure that we all have to work like donkeys? Perhaps we should actually kill anybody that is not able to work - seems to be more human than your solution to make them barely survive..

What actually is the only important thing is to make as many people live their short lives as happy as we can. If it makes you happy to work hard - by all means, go ahead! But don't require others to do so too - they may be able to, but not willing (like e.g. the rich) or willing, but not able (e.g. the sick).

In a decent society, we don't have poor people, nor thieves that steal of others and call it "a handsome profit". Well, we still don't live in a decent society

If someone is actually not able to work and they struggle for reasons beyond laziness then I agree, they should be taken care of.
However, I maintain that lazy people deserve no financial equality. You are advocating for communism, which I reject.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
Well, it's clear that "hard work and determination" does not make one wealthy.

If that were true, there wouldn't be such a thing as the "1%".

It takes more than just a stellar work ethic and desire to achieve. They say luck and success happen at the intersection when opportunity and being prepared meet.

In order to be part of the 1%, you have to somehow do something 99% of the rest of humanity does not do, or possess what 99% of humanity does not have.

I mean, if you want to be like them -- you have to...well...be like them (the 1%). You have to do what they do, see the world as they see it, and act how they would act.

The 1% is a myth. To be in the top 1% you need to be earning over $615,0000 a year. This group pays 46% of the entire tax revenues of the United States, whilst earning just 17% of the income. It is entirely possible with very hard work and only average talent to achieve this level of income.

You seem to be discussing the super rich that use shortcuts to cheat others. They neither work hard, nor have talent. They have privilege and are dishonest. I would suggest the group you are talking about might only be a few thousand people in the entire country.